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@RickReads said, In your view of regeneration, salvation is an automated process of God. There is no need to hear the gospel and no need to repent and no need to make public confession. No need of anything because you are autogenerated. If your lottery isn't a winner you are thrown under the bus and have no hope from the moment you are in the womb.
I should also say that your claim that @Clare73 has the view of regeneration, where salvation is an automated process of God, is also very strange, for someone claiming to have grown up in or been indoctrinated in Calvinism. What in the world makes you think something is automated, if God is doing it?
It's outlandish enough, and humanocentric, to think that if a human isn't the one who causes it, that it is therefore automatic, but to claim that Calvinism believes that if God does it, it is somehow automatic, is not only not Calvinistic, but demonstrates mere deism at best, and denies the nature of God.
Your Luke reference isn't quite like the other two: it is not saying "will die" but "was dead", which is quite a different thing. And there are a multitude of references, of which I expect @Clare73 will soon show you some more, but here's one for starters:"Spiritual dead" is not an expression of the Bible, but concerning "dead in your sins" Eph 2:1 which I think Clare was refering to we have:
Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
— John 8:24
Again, when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I place an obstacle before him, he will die; since you have not warned him, he shall die in his sin, and his righteous deeds which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand.
— Ezekiel 3:20
But we had to celebrate and rejoice, for this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been found.’”
— Luke 15:32
They are "dead in sins" since they have the wrong standing with God and will die in their sins. I don't know why/how to get to the conclusion that they are unable to respond...
I think I have told you, they don't claim to be even "Arminian-leaning". That is my description of them, or more accurately, of the whole general Christian (missionary kid) community into which I was born and in which I grew up.Based on your testimony your family is not Arminian as they correctly have asserted to you.
Why not just say what the Bible says concerning Christ atonement? Peter does an excellent job of telling us that Christ died for all. He says that Christ paid for the worst of sinners - false prophets on there way to destruction who introduce heresies. If Christ paid for people introducing heresies, its safe to say he paid for your neighbor. Christ's payment is received through faith per Hebrews 4:1-2.You can definitely say Christ died for those who believe, no one argues against that. . .so believe!
You may not have noticed that you contradicted yourself here. Or are you say that my claim that your supposed argument was a strawman, is my last possible claim against your position?I think it to be an accurate description of Calvinist doctrine, and it was just an expression but by all means, keep building a strawman out of it. You are out of arguments.
Your Luke reference isn't quite like the other two: it is not saying "will die" but "was dead", which is quite a different thing. And there are a multitude of references, of which I expect @Clare73 will soon show you some more, but here's one for starters:
Ephesians 2:1-10, in which verse 1 says, "As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,"
"Unable to respond" is not the point. Unable to "submit", unable to "please God", is directly from Romans 8.
For me, the salvation before your salvation and the theory of irresistible grace are deal-breakers.
You may not have noticed that you contradicted yourself here. Or are you say that my claim that your supposed argument was a strawman, is my last possible claim against your position?
But your assertion that I am out of arguments seems a little odd at this point, since you have yet to prove any of my arguments wrong. Why should I even bother to proceed with further argumentation?
Dead people don't practice anything, and the spiritually dead don't practice Christianity.I don't get how you are injecting all that into my words but frankly, I don't like it and I will not be responding because, in my opinion, you are debating very dishonestly here.
You are tap-dancing around the fact that
your idea of regeneration is salvation without the need to practice Christianity.
Precisely. . .you do as much in your spiritual birth as you did in your physical birth. . .nothing. . .nada. . . zip. . .zero. . .If it is possible to pass from death to life without even hearing the gospel then
I don't need to do anything of a religious nature.
[/QUOTE]Dead people don't practice anything, and the spiritually dead don't practice Christianity.
What part of John 3:3-8, Romans 8:7-8, 1 Corinthians 2:14 do you not understand?
You simply don't believe them. . .and that's above my paygrade.
You must be spiritually alive, not spiritually dead, to practice Christianity.
Correct. . .spiritually dead people cannot do anything of a spiritual nature.
They must be born (again) to do so, and no one has anything to do with their own birth. . .natural or spiritual.
Both births are 100% the work of their progenitors.
Do you intentionally misrepresent what others state, or is it failure to understand plain language?You seem determined to make me get mean. I may have to repent and apologize to Cormack
again. I`m a former Calvinist so as a Calvinist I ask you, You say I got regenerated via irresistible grace and this occurred before I heard about Jesus. I have passed from death into life. Even Clare says this is so.
Please address these.Dead people don't practice anything, and the spiritually dead don't practice Christianity.
What part of John 3:3-8, Romans 8:7-8, 1 Corinthians 2:14 do you not understand?
You simply don't believe them. . .and that's above my paygrade.
You must be spiritually alive, not spiritually dead, to practice Christianity.
Precisely. . .you do as much in your spiritual birth as you did in your physical birth. . .nothing. . .nada. . . zip. . .zero. . .
Once again, spiritually dead people cannot do anything of a spiritual nature.
They must be born (again) to do so, and no one has anything to do with their own birth. . .natural or spiritual.
Both births are 100% the work of their progenitors.
It's not complicated. . .
Non-responsive to my question. . .The Calvinist opinion on regeneration is not what the Baptists normally consider orthodox.
What is regeneration according to the Bible? | GotQuestions.org
Gotquestions is a Baptist enterprise.
Regeneration: I Stand with the BF&M
Non-responsive to my question. . .[/QUOTE]The Calvinist opinion on regeneration is not what the Baptists normally consider orthodox.
What is regeneration according to the Bible? | GotQuestions.org
Gotquestions is a Baptist enterprise.
Regeneration: I Stand with the BF&M
There are multitudes of such examples, people who are under the impression that it is their 'acceptance', the virtue of their decision, that makes all the difference. I have a tendency not to answer, not only because of the cacophony of resistant voices that will join the fray against me, in the presence of a new believer, but because of the fact that the very mindset of most new believers cannot conceive of the thing I hope to convey.I will look closer into it. Maybe respond to him later if I know what to say.
I wonder what you would say as a Calvinist since you don't know Christ died for him. You can't say Christ died for him for an example, or you can but that would be dishonest.
Non-responsive to my question. . .
Jesus also does a pretty good job of describing his mission when he states thatWhy not just say what the Bible says concerning Christ atonement?
Peter does an excellent job of telling us that Christ died for all.
In the context of vv. 20-23, they had at least professed knowing the Lord, and which Peter's comment reflects.He says that Christ paid for the worst of sinners - false prophets on there way to destruction who introduce heresies. If Christ paid for people introducing heresies, its safe to say he paid for your neighbor. Christ's payment is received through faith per Hebrews 4:1-2.
2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.
All mankind is born condemned (Romans 5:18) in spiritual death (no eternal life), which is why all have to be born again (John 3:3-8) to even see the kingdom of God.Someone said: And spiritually dead--complete inability to do anything spiritually, is what Jesus and Paul are presenting in John 3:3-8; Romans 8:7-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14.
The dead don't reach out and grab the life preserver of the gospel. That is NT teaching.
So then, that is confusing, So being dead from having sinned after birth and committing sin,
That is precisely what John 3:3-8 states. . .one must be born again to even see the kingdom of God.the Calvinist who is spiritually dead and has complete inability to do anything spiritual becomes alive in Christ before they ever repent and believe the gospel, it that what is being said? I must not be getting the point, that cannot be true!
Agreed. . .Here is what I see coming straight out of the bible; believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. John 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.
Explain.Reformed theology comes with a spiritual blinding aspect, so it wouldn't help with that type of case.
Clare73 said:Non-responsive to my question. . .
I'm referring to your lack of personal response to my question:Rediculous response. The second link is actually a well-done Southern Baptist effort to slip Calvinism through the eye of the needle.
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