What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[Presbyterian Continuist]

According to NT apostolic teaching, the unregenerate heart, which is "without Holy Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for he cannot understand them, and they are foolishness to him," (1 Corinthians 2:14) and he wants no part of foolishness.

There is no seeding of an unregenerate heart because it has no Holy Spirit, which is what the parable shows.

That is not the true sense of the parable. It is what you are reading into it. What you are saying is not necessarily wrong, but you can't use that parable as the foundation for saying it. Have you read Jesus' own interpretation of the parable?

 

[RickReads]

That is not the true sense of the parable. It is what you are reading into it. What you are saying is not necessarily wrong, but you can't use that parable as the foundation for saying it. Have you read Jesus' own interpretation of the parable?

The passage I posted is Jesus' interpretation.

 

[Clare73]

That is not the true sense of the parable. It is what you are reading into it. What you are saying is not necessarily wrong, but you can't use that parable as the foundation for saying it.
Have you read Jesus' own interpretation of the parable?

Does it contradict 1 Corinthians 2:14?

Remember, he is preaching and teaching under and according to the old covenant.

 

[RickReads]

Does it contradict 1 Corinthians 2:14?

Remember, he is preaching and teaching under and according to the old covenant.

The irony is way too funny.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Does it contradict 1 Corinthians 2:14?

Remember, he is preaching and teaching under and according to the old covenant.

Here is Jesus' interpretation:

"18 “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”

It looks quite clear that this can equally apply to modern people who hear the Gospel as it did to those hearing the preaching of the kingdom in Jesus' day.

You can't make the parable and meaning to say different to what is actually said in the text.

 

[iwbswiaihl]

According to NT apostolic teaching, the unregenerate heart, which is "without Holy Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for he cannot understand them, and they are foolishness to him," (1 Corinthians 2:14) and he wants no part of foolishness.

There is no seeding of an unregenerate heart because it has no Holy Spirit, which is what the parable shows.

I would like to suggest that you read the first 3 chapters of 1 Corinthians and as you know he was writing to the church in Corinth, while doing so notice also what he says in 3:9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. 16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.

I must say after reading each of you replying, I may have been giving my answer out of context to the parable that is being discussed. If that is the case, sorry and just pass over my comments concerning the Corinthians.

 

[ReverendRV]

Alrighty then. I`ll try it like this.

Matt 13
18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.

19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Here we see that the seed of saving faith is the gospel/word. This is the point where it all begins. Before being seeded we are in a state of depravity. Salvation is not possible if we have not been seeded. Can't happen. Triple negative.

Amen...

And if the Good Soil wasn't Regenerated, the Gospel Seed would fail, right? As it did on the other Soils...

Turning Swords into Plowshares ~ by Reverend RV

Isaiah 2:4 KJV; And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Jesus said ‘Blessed are the meek, For they shall inherit the earth; Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.’ ~ Spiritually speaking, no one begins in life as a peacemaker, but instead we begin as enemies of God. The Bible says that Stealing, Lying, and Cursing with God’s name are all Sin; and they’re only the tip of the Iceberg. Jesus also said ‘He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters’; so there is no neutrality. When one decides to repent and follow Jesus, they are no longer enemies of God. Former enemies know the way of weapons, but when they no longer need them; they can put a weapon to a better use…

Jesus said ‘Go into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature.’ There are times when Christians obey this, but it seems they can’t get through to some people. Jesus compares the heart of these people to hard, trodden ground; ‘When anyone hears the Message about the Kingdom and doesn’t understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the Seed sown along the path.’ This is when the ground of your heart needs to be tilled. ~ The Prophet Ezekiel describes it like this; ‘I will give you a New Heart and put a New Spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a Heart of flesh.’ God makes the ground of your heart good and then compares it to tilled soil. God uses the Law of God to penetrate your heart, Paul describes it like this; ‘For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.’ ~ A follower of Christ will lay down his carnal sword and pick up the ‘Sword which is the Word of God’; and use it as a plowshare to break ground in your rock hard heart…

This is what Saint Peter did at the first Christian Pentecost. By the power of God’s Holy Spirit, Peter rose and preached to the crowds. Everyone present knew of how God had been working the last few years in the land of Israel, and SURELY there were large crowds assembled to see if it would continue. There were people who would had seen the Miracles of Christ; giving sight to the blind, feeding the thousands and raising the dead. There would have been people there who saw the darkness the day Christ was Crucified, and when they heard Peter quote the prophecy of Joel, they would have known the darkness was predicted long ago. There would have been people who told Pontius Pilate to Crucify Jesus, and when Peter proclaimed this, ‘They were cut to the Heart’. Peter turned the Sword he used to cut off a guard's ear into a Plowshare, and turn the Spear that pierced Christ's heart into a pruning Hook; reaping a harvest that day of three thousand people!


You have reason to worry today if you have not turned to Jesus Christ as your Savior. Moses said, ‘But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not heed them, as the LORD had said.’ You are the one who trods down the path which is your heart, making it harder! We’re Saved by Grace through Faith in the risen Savior Jesus Christ, not by Works lest we boast. Repent of your Sins, Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord God; read your Bible and go to Church. ~ Eternal life will now be able to grow in the circumcision which the Bible has cut into your Heart…

John 5:24 ESV; Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

 

[rturner76]

Not funny

I have seen some very physical expressions of faith where people were "slain" in the spirit and hit the floor. People running around the church and all kinds of hysterics. It's a way people express their faith and there is nothing wrong with that. It's just not my style. I'm more into somber prayer/meditation/reflection which many people find boring and not truly expressive of the joy they feel in Christ.

That's why I say to each his own.

 

[RickReads]

Amen...

And if the Good Soil wasn't Regenerated, the Gospel Seed would fail, right? As it did on the other Soils.

You got no scripture on that.

 

[Clare73]

This is not the sense of the parable. The good ground is the right environment which can receive the Gospel and for it to grow and bear fruit. The stony place is where the ground is shallow, speaking of easy believerism without any depth and as soon as problems or persecution comes, there is not enough depth for the Gospel to take root and bear fruit, so the person goes back into the world. The hard path where the birds arrived and take the seed before it can take root are the ones who are presented with the Gospel but immediately reject it.

We are all unregenerate until presented with the Gospel. The three types of ground where the seed of the Gospel falls are the types of people to whom the Gospel comes. The "hard path" people who reject the Gospel remain in their sins. The shallow ones are the ones to "get religion" but don't go on to become fully converted to Christ. The good ground are the ones to joyfully accept the Gospel, repent of the sins, allow the Holy Spirit to fully convert them to Christ and so go on to become fully established and bear fruit.

Is that the sense of apostolic teaching in 1 Corinthians 2:14 or Romans 8:7-8 regarding the unregenerate--those who do not have the Holy Spirit?

 

[RickReads]

Is that the sense of apostolic teaching in 1 Corinthians 2:14 or Romans 7:7-8 regarding the unregenerate--those who do not have the Holy Spirit?

Romans 7 is about the struggle a believer has with the sin issue. I believe it also has a multi-application (as scriptures often do) to a sinner with a guilty conscience but this is a way of thinking about scriptures that you condemn.

 

[Clare73]

The irony is way too funny.

Are you sure about that? . . .I take that to mean you disagree.

An example of to what I am referring is seen in Matthew 19:16-21, the rich young man who asked Jesus what he must do to get eternal life. Did Jesus give the new covenant answer: believe in and trust on me and my atoning sacrifice for the remission of your sin? He did not.
He gave the old covenant answer: obey the law (vv. 18-19), because that was God's requirement for eternal life at that time.

And when the fulfillment of that answer was declared by the rich young man, Jesus said the only thing that could be said under the old covenant, "Come, follow me," which would take him into the new covenant answer revealed after the resurrection--faith in him and his atoning sacrifice (Romans 3:25).

Jesus' teaching was in the light of the old covenant, because he and they were still under the old covenant (whose purpose was to lead to the new covenant--Galatians 3:24), and the new covenant had not yet been revealed when the rich young man came to him.

Back at cha'. . .

 

[Clare73]

Here is Jesus' interpretation:

Does Jesus' interpretation disagree with 1 Corinthians 2:14? Yes or no?

"18 “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”

It looks quite clear that this can equally apply to modern people who hear the Gospel as it did to those hearing the preaching of the kingdom in Jesus' day.

You can't make the parable and meaning to say different to what is actually said in the text.

It's not different, it's more fully revealed in apostolic teaching.

Scripture is not different from (against) itself, Scripture is in harmony with itself.

 

[RickReads]

Are you sure about that? . . .I take that to mean you disagree.

An example of to what I am referring is seen in Matthew 19:16-21, the rich young man who asked Jesus what he must do to get eternal life. Did Jesus give the new covenant answer: believe in and trust on me and my atoning sacrifice for the remission of your sin? He did not.
He gave the old covenant answer: obey the law (vv. 18-19), because that was required by God for eternal life at that time.

And when the fulfillment of that answer was declared by the rich young man, Jesus said the only thing that could be said under the old covenant, "Come, follow me," which would take him into the new covenant answer revealed after the resurrection--faith in him and his atoning sacrifice (Romans 3:25).
Jesus' teaching was in the light of the old covenant, because he and they were still under the old covenant (whose purpose was to lead to the new covenant--Galatians 3:24), and the new covenant had not yet been revealed when the rich young man came to him.

Back at cha'. . .

I think it is entirely hypocritical of you to rail against my Christianity for using Jesus's own term for His message and then turn around and say oh but Jesus taught under the Old Covenant to somebody else.
That is just pathetic as well as ironic.

 

[Clare73]

Romans 7 is about the struggle a believer has with the sin issue. I believe it also has a multi-application (as scriptures often do) to a sinner with a guilty conscience but this is a way of thinking about scriptures that you condemn.

Correct. . .TYPO. . .that should be Romans 8:7-8.

1 Corinthians 2:14 and Romans 8:7-8 are about the unregenerate man,
the man without the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:14), and
the sinful (unregenerate) mind (Romans 8:7-8).

It would help if I got the addresses correct!

 

[Clare73]

I think it is entirely hypocritical of you to rail against my Christianity for using Jesus's own term for His message and then turn around and say oh but Jesus taught under the Old Covenant to somebody else.
That is just pathetic as well as ironic.

Falls somewhat short of a Biblical demonstration of my Biblical error.

 

[RickReads]

Amen...

And if the Good Soil wasn't Regenerated, the Gospel Seed would fail, right? As it did on the other Soils...

I`ll show it to you again in yet another way. You should feel special because I usually won't work this hard anymore.

Ephesians 6:17 tells us that the word of God is the sword of the Holy Spirit. So we know that the word is the weapon the Holy Spirit will use to make sinners surrender.

This is in keeping with the saying of Jesus "My sheep know my voice"

We see a Biblical example in Acts 2 (home of Acts 2:38 ),

First they are confounded that is to say they are confused. The natural man does not understand the gospel and is unable to understand what is going on. Acts 2:6

Then they are amazed that is to say they are deeply stirred in their hearts. Acts 2:7

Then they are in doubt which means they are perplexed and confused. Shows yet again they are the natural man. Acts 2:12

Next, the word which was spoken to them by the man acting as an ambassador for Jesus pricks them in their heart. The sword has cut. Acts 2:37

Regeneration takes place after all this has occurred. Acts 2:38

 

[RickReads]

Falls somewhat short of a Biblical demonstration of my Biblical error.

It was an attempt to get you to see some common sense reasoning.

 

[Clare73]

It was an attempt to get you to see some common sense reasoning.

I understand, and thanks. . .but human reasoning does not trump the divine revelation of the Scriptures in Matthew 19:16-21, which you do not address.

 

[misput]

My point is that renewal in the Holy Spirit can only occur after regeneration/salvation/circumcision of heart/baptism in the holy spirit/Jesus through the door.

One more time: What you are saying is true but what I am saying is for all this renewal and regeneration to be a renewal and regeneration indicates at some point in the past we had these attributes and lost them along the road of life. This is for me, more evidence the doctrine of original sin (Calvinism) is a false doctrine.