What is wrong with Calvinism ?

FlTom said:

Ok. Augustine was responsible for bringing it in the church. Previous to him free will was uniformly held with only Gnostics and Manicheans advancing it

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Augustine, or Pelagius?

Or did Pelgius defend Augustine?

FlTom said:

Ok. Augustine was responsible for bringing it in the church. Previous to him free will was uniformly held with only Gnostics and Manicheans advancing it

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I would rather start with Proverbs 16:33
33 The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord.

Clare73 said:

Or will it be similar to Malachi 1:1-2?

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I am not sure how that relates to the Gospel. Malachi was prophesying to Israel (Jacob). It is quite true that He loved Israel, but still punished them for their idolatry. But I don't know how you can lift the Malachi verse out of its context and apply it to anyone else except Israel (not the modern-day Israel, but the Israel of his time). It is quite true that God does love us, and there are other Scriptures that apply it better, such as "Even while we were yet sinners, Christ loved us and gave Himself for us." Therefore it is true that God loves sinners, but still has to punish them if they refuse Christ who died on the cross to take away their sin.

FlTom said:

Ok. Augustine was responsible for bringing it in the church. Previous to him free will was uniformly held with only Gnostics and Manicheans advancing it

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Well, free will is not absolute in Scripture.

We do not have the power to execute (free will to make) all moral choices, such as a choice to be sinless, to never sin. . .in thought, word or deed.

Oscarr said:

I am not sure how that relates to the Gospel. Malachi was prophesying to Israel (Jacob). It is quite true that He loved Israel, but still punished them for their idolatry. But I don't know how you can lift the Malachi verse out of its context and apply it to anyone else except Israel (not the modern-day Israel, but the Israel of his time).

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Paul applied it to two specific individuals, the sons of Rebekeh in Romans 9:11-12.

I'm not sure of your intended response. But here is what the Gospel actually is:
"Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born" (1 Corinthians 15:1-8).

This is the Gospel that saves people, not Calvinism or Arminianism or anything in between.

Oscarr said:

I am not sure how that relates to the Gospel. Malachi was prophesying to Israel (Jacob). It is quite true that He loved Israel, but still punished them for their idolatry. But I don't know how you can lift the Malachi verse out of its context and apply it to anyone else except Israel (not the modern-day Israel, but the Israel of his time). It is quite true that God does love us, and there are other Scriptures that apply it better, such as "Even while we were yet sinners, Christ loved us and gave Himself for us." Therefore it is true that God loves sinners, but still has to punish them if they refuse Christ who died on the cross to take away their sin.

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Would it not be more accurate to say it was all their fault because they chose eternal separation for not accepting His gift of salvation by believing in the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior.

Oscarr said:

I'm not sure of your intended response. But here is what the Gospel actually is:
"Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

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3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born"

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(1 Corinthians 15:1-8).
This is the Gospel that saves people, not Calvinism or Arminianism or anything in between.

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Actually, it is God who saves people. . .right?

Clare73 said:

Paul applied it to two specific individuals, the sons of Rebekeh in Romans 9:11-12.

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I have quoted the verse in context so we can get a better understanding of what it means:
"6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”[c]

10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[e]

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f]

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25 As he says in Hosea:

“I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people;
and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,”

26 and,

“In the very place where it was said to them,
‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘children of the living God.’”[j]

27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:

“Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be saved.
28 For the Lord will carry out
his sentence on earth with speed and finality.”[k]

29 It is just as Isaiah said previously:

“Unless the Lord Almighty
had left us descendants,
we would have become like Sodom,
we would have been like Gomorrah.”"

Clare73 said:

Well,

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Hey Clare guess what?

1 Corithinthians 15: 2 NIV; By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

Clare73 said:

Actually, it is God who saves people. . .right?

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s

RickReads said:

Hey Clare guess what?

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I give up. . .what?

ReverendRV said:

1 Corithinthians 15: 2 NIV; By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

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By this gospel, God saves you (by remitting your sin because of faith in it).

Apart from this gospel, God does not save you (does not remit your sin because of unbelief in it).

Clare73 said:

I give up. . .what?

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I just put up my strongest pro-Calvinist verse and you threw it a like. LOL!

Clare73 said:

By this gospel, God saves you (by remitting your sin because of faith in it).

Apart from this gospel, God does not save you (does not remit your sin because of unbelief in it).

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I'm guessing he is like me, and loves the Gospel that much. Give credit to where credit is due; the Verse says the Gospel Saves...

Don't get me wrong; I agree with you that God Saves. The thing is, Salvation is multi-faceted. As good little Sola Scripturists, let's just believe the Verse...

Clare73 said:

By this gospel, God saves you (by remitting your sin because of faith in it).

Apart from this gospel, God does not save you (does not remit your sin because of unbelief in it).

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You cant unbelieve in something you never knew existed. The unbelief penalty is only for those who find out about Jesus and reject Him.

Jesus is YHWH said:

Love is one of the primary and essential attributes which reflect the nature and character of God. The word Theology refers to the study of God, and God is Triune, a Trinity- Tri-Unity. All doctrine begins with God at its starting point. God’s innate attributes are Aseity (God is self-sufficient), Infinite (without limit), Eternal (God has no beginning or end, he is timeless), Immutable (God is unchanging), Love (God is love), Holy (God is set-apart), Perichoresis (the indwelling of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit). Divine Simplicity states God is Love and because He is Love, not because He possesses that quality. God's love is the center of all the Divine Attributes. They point to His Being. God is not distinct from His nature.

God is Love. In love, the Father sent the Son on our behalf to be the perfect sacrifice for sin. We Love because He first loved us and sent His Son as 1 John 4 tells us.

We must understand how God's attributes all work in harmony together, not in opposition to each other. God's attributes and character flow from His love—for God is love.

God being love has nothing to do with His creation. That is secondary. God is love, and that love is perfect, lacking nothing within His Triune nature as God. Love, by definition, has to be expressed with another, which is why a unitarian god cannot be love. Love requires another to share and express that love, and it is what we see with the Triune God. God is love before anyone/anything existed.

In the monumental work of Calvin’s Institutes , it is interesting for a man with such an attention to detail when it comes to dogma and Scripture that he left out any mention of Gods primary attribute that God is love (1 John 4:8;16) and any biblical reference to those two verses in 1 John regarding God is love. His institutes contain thousands of bible references and over 1500 pages in his Institutes.

Another interesting fact is that in the Shorter Westminster Catechism of Faith, question 4 “What is God “? We read the following regarding Gods attributes and notice what is left out.

“God is Spirit, infinite, eternal, and unchangeable in his being, wisdom, power, holiness, justice, goodness and truth. “

Notice like in Calvin’s Institute’s, the WCF leaves out Gods primary attribute that He is love.

Before creation, there was no sin. There was no judgment, wrath, mercy, grace, and justice. There was no Sovereignty for there was no creation to be Sovereign over. Why do you ask about those attributes and that they were not necessary? Because those are God's secondary attributes concerning the creation and the fall. God's love is a primary attribute, like Holy is a primary one. Everything about God flows from His being Love which includes His secondary attributes, which were not in use until the creation and the fall.

The true nature of Gods love is at the heart of the gospel message: God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in His shall not perish but have everlasting life, John 3:16.

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. John 3:17

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And... To point out that Calvin would have a man sent to his death and then go on to say...
"Whoever shall maintain that wrong is done to heretics and blasphemers in punishing them makes himself an accomplice in their crime and guilty as they are. There is no question here of man's authority; it is God who speaks, and clear it is what law he will have kept in the church, even to the end of the world. Wherefore does he demand of us a so extreme severity, if not to show us that due honor is not paid him, so long as we set not his service above every human consideration, so that we spare not kin, nor blood of any, and forget all humanity when the matter is to combat for His glory." - John Calvin after toasting Michael Servetus

John Calvin then goes onto describe threatening an Anabaptist with the gallows!

On 21 January 1546, Calvin wrote to Farel in Neuchâtel that he had just met an Anabaptist Belot in Geneva. The letter also throws light on Calvin's attitude to the Anabaptists at that time. He says, "In these days an Anabaptist, when he was laying out foolish writings publicly for sale, was at my instigation arrested. You of course know the nature of these people from experience. But I have never been aware of such wild defiance before. Although I first addressed him politely, as is my custom, it did not suit him for a moment to talk otherwise with me than if he were dealing with a dog. When they led him to the city hall, he at once wanted to sit beside the first syndic; when he was turned away from there, he gave himself with raised head and rolling eyes the majestic aspect of a prophet and answered if it suited him with a few words the questions directed to him; frequently he was altogether silent. A dispute then arose between us on swearing. When I asked him if the law of the Lord did not give us directions for living, he uttered the horrible dogma of the Anabaptists: The Old Testament is done away! I quoted the words of Paul. All Scripture is profitable, that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works (2 Timothy 3:16, 17). I insisted that he answer; but not a word could I get out of him. Therefore I now explained this entire question, so that everyone might recognize the invincible ignorance of this man together with his equally great impudence. When he saw himself thus pushed, he uttered the usual frivolous phrase of the sectarians, that no man has a more comfortable life than the parsons. I answered with a few words, not so much to defend our class as to ward off the boldness of this beast. Then he called me covetous. This produced general laughter; for all knew that I had just this year refused a large personal salary and indeed so seriously that I assured them under oath that I would not preach another sermon if they did not leave off. They knew too that I had not only refused such extraordinary generosity, but had even returned some of my regular salary, not less than 20 crowns. And so he was attacked by all with abusive terms. I answered modestly, he would probably be rich in my position; it was no sign of avarice if I am poor with all the opportunity of becoming rich; but he could be accused by me on a matter of life and death, namely of theft; if he denied it I would offer my head for punishment for slander if it were not true. For it was certain that he was selling broadsheets for two and a half sous which had cost him four deniers. And it was not due to a fixed tax that he sold them so dearly. When he was silent as usual I began to talk about the sinlessness of the Anabaptists. When he had sufficiently shown his defiance, he was expelled from the city. Two days later, when he was again seized in the city, he was beaten, his books publicly burned, and he himself was told not to come again, on penalty of the gallows. This is a man or rather a beast of desperate wickedness." - John Calvin Calvin, John (1509-1564) - GAMEO

Irresistible Grace Trespasses against the Fallen Will of the Lost; this is how Grace is Irresistible. Arminian Prevenient Grace does the same. In both cases, because of our Total Depravity; Grace is NEVER invited. Irresistible Grace doesn't mean we have to choose Jesus; all it means is that we are now Spiritually Alive. We choose Jesus because we are Spiritually Alive; not because the strong-arm of Grace makes us say Uncle...

RickReads said:

I just put up my strongest pro-Calvinist verse and you threw it a like. LOL!

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I agree with Scripture. . .

I'm neither pro nor con "ism's."

I'm pro Biblical, and con non-Biblical.

ReverendRV said:

I'm guessing he is like me, and loves the Gospel that much. Give credit to where credit is due; the Verse says the Gospel Saves...

Don't get me wrong; I agree with you that God Saves. The thing is, Salvation is multi-faceted. As good little Sola Scripturists, let's just believe the Verse...

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So how do I exclude the faith in that gospel that is required for the gospel to save?

The gospel didn't save my brother.