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I give up. . .what was it?Duh! I seem to remember, now where did I put, what was it I was looking for?
Assumes facts not in evidence. . .Sometimes when I read the Bible I stop and ask a few questions that I look for answer to. Like what is it that author is trying to explain? And exacly what is it that he says and what is it that he doesn't say? It's a good way to investigate Scripture. I know we can't read the Bible like we haven't been influenced by anything, but there is a difference between
trying to read the Bible free of preconceived ideas
and trying to fit things in like total depravity and limited atonement.
False dichotomy. . .No, they didn't get their understanding from Scripture alone. How do you figure?
They got it passed on from the apostles themselves and then from tradition.
zoidar said:Why do then Genesis and Exodus say people sinned before the Law was given?
What about Sodom and Gomorrah?
Between Adam and Moses, there was no covenant nor law of God in force whose penalty was death (both spiritual and physical), "Dying, you will die." (Genesis 2:17)And Cain and the flood, and the tower of Babble and, and, and-----------
The issue of Romans 5:12-14 is that sin was not to physical and spiritual death by a law of God. . .yet they all died, as did Adam who sinned against a law of God carrying the penalty of death (Genesis 2:17).There is no transgression of the Law of Moses without the Law of Moses obviously. But
there were still sin before Moses.
Romans 5:12-14 is not about just sin, it is about sin against law carrying a penalty of death, of which there was no such law between Adam and Moses. . .and yet they all died.Why? Because the Law is written in our hearts.
For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus. — Romans 2:14-16
Limited atonement - atonement applied only to those who believe (John 3:16), not to all
"Whoever" is general statement which means whoever in the whole world.
Don't you see the necessary consequence of that those who deny Jesus are included in the word "world" ? That means the atonement by necessity is unlimited.
For God so loved the world (this must include those who deny him, vers 17), that He gave His only begotten Son.
Whom did God love? Those who will deny him and those who will receive him. The proof is that God gave His only Son for both "groups" so they could potentially be saved.For whom did God give His Son? The world, those who receive and those who deny him. In what way did God give His Son to those who deny Jesus, if not as the atoning sacrifice?
#4104
Application is the only thing material here.
Its application is not unlimited, its application is limited.
Between Adam and Moses, there was no covenant nor law of God in force whose penalty was death (both spiritual and physical)
Application is what is material.Everyone believes the application is limited (except universialists). John 3:16 says not only that it's applied to believers, but that God sent His Son as the atoning sacrifice for everyone.
Irrelevant. . .How could then God punish Sodom with death for its sins, if there was no such penalty for sin?
Application is what is material.
Irrelevant. . .
Who says he can't?
Who is going to keep him from doing so. . .who does he answer to?
What is relevant to Romans 5:12-14 is whether there was a law by God in force then with a death penalty attached for all who sinned?
There was not and, the word of God says (twice) that they did not sin (Romans 5:13-14).
There was such a law, however, in Israel from Moses to Christ.
Except they had it better than Adam.
A remedy for the death penalty was included in that law.
Scripture, not the church fathers, is the authority for the born again.
And the rest of the story. . .But it says "all sinned". You can't just ignore that (well you can, but shouldn't). You are saying that means Adam's guilt was imputed to all men, but that is not what it says. If I'm not wrong that view was first held by Augustine.
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—
— Romans 5:12
They were taught what those same apostles wrote in the Scriptures, we having the added advantage of all the apostolic writings, not just of one.Of course!
The Early Church Fathers are the first "Bible study teachers." They lived close in time to the apostles and some even met and were taught by the apostles. Which apostle taught Luther or Calvin how to understand Paul? No one! Yet people believe that Luther and Calvin got everything in the Bible right. If we don't think the Early Church Fathers could get it right, how can we believe Luther and Calvin got it right some 1500 years later?
They were taught what those same apostles wrote in the Scriptures, we having the added advantage of all the apostolic writings, not just of one.
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