- Sep 18, 2010
- 7,478
- 2,669
- Country
- Sweden
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Private
Your issue is with Scripture, not with me.
Clare, do you love Jesus?
Upvote
0
Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
Your issue is with Scripture, not with me.
Feel free in your exegesis of Romans 5:12-18 to demonstrate what you think is error, being true to its words and context, and dealing with all the issues/questions involved.And if that one was not Ro 5:12-18 with Clare teaching it, well everyone was just out of luck : )
Non-responsive. . .Clare, do you love Jesus?
So repetitiveFeel free in your exegesis of Romans 5:12-18 to demonstrate what you think is error, being true to its words and context, and dealing with all the issues/questions involved.
Until then, it's all just assertion without Biblical demonstration and, therefore, lacking merit.
Non-responsive. . .
Do you?
The best thing you've said so far.
Feel free in your exegesis of Romans 5:12-14 to demonstrate what you think is error, being true to its words and context, and dealing with all the issues/questions involved.
Good reasoning. The only thing i would change is: We still need to try to live a righteous life anyhow.Yes!
I'm asking because I was wondering what kind of relationship you have to Jesus. Some Reformers seem to have their focus on the Godhead. Almost like Jesus comes second. It's just a feeling I got, could be wrong about it.
I have done my best. I have read a few commentators on it too, to see how they exegete it. If you are right about it fine. Then we have Adam's guilt imputed and Christ's righteousness through faith imputed. What does that change? We still need to live a righteous life anyhow.
Good reasoning. The only thing i would change is: We still need to try to live a righteous life anyhow.
It felt derogatory.I don't know if you mean it or if you are saying it is a dumb question.
Good question. . .good intuition. . .bringing to light a good point.I'm asking because I was wondering what kind of relationship you have to Jesus. Some Reformers seem to have their focus on the Godhead. Almost like Jesus comes second. It's just a feeling I got, could be wrong about it.
Good question. . .good intuition. . .bringing to light a good point.
Is Jesus not the Godhead?
Did he not come to, among other things, reveal the Father to us?
Was not the Father his primary focus?
My understanding of and relationship to God, which is the Godhead, is in, through and on the pattern of Jesus. The same with the Holy Spirit.
It changes nothing, it simply secures God's will that all men shall be inclosed (shut in, with no escape)I have done my best. I have read a few commentators on it too, to see how they exegete it. If you are right about it fine. Then we have Adam's guilt imputed and Christ's righteousness through faith imputed. What does that change? We still need to live a righteous life anyhow.
Is Jesus not the Godhead?
Did he not come to, among other things, reveal the Father to us?
Was not the Father his primary focus?
My understanding of and relationship to God, which is the Godhead, is in, through and on the pattern of Jesus. The same with the Holy Spirit.
I read somewhere that "Godhead" is just a variation of "Godhood", the state of being God. Similar ro "Fatherhood","motherhood" etc.I find the Godhead to be a much more impersonal description of God than Jesus Christ. To me Godhead sounds quite abstract. The Father is a more personal description of God than Godhead, someone I can pray to and trust. Godhead seems more of a theoretical description of the trinity, than someone I can personally rely on and have a relationship with. To me even loving the Father is a bit of a struggle, who I find more strict than the Son. Even I am very thankful that God the Father is a good God, it is Jesus the Son I fell in love with.
That's my spontaneous thoughts.
And I love 'em.I find the Godhead to be a much more impersonal description of God than Jesus Christ. To me Godhead sounds quite abstract. The Father is a more personal description of God than Godhead, someone I can pray to and trust. Godhead seems more of a theoretical description of the trinity, than someone I can personally rely on and have a relationship with. To me even loving the Father is a bit of a struggle, who I find more strict than the Son. Even I am very thankful that God the Father is a good God, it is Jesus the Son I fell in love with.
That's my spontaneous thoughts.
It changes nothing, it simply secures God's will that all men shall be inclosed (shut in, with no escape)
in disobedience (sin/guilt), so that all are totally dependant on his mercy (Romans 11:32).
And then in relation to commentators' presenting the imputation of Adam's sin, I present a summary of NT teaching on the matter (Romans 5:12-14):
1) Death is caused by sin (transgression of a command with a death penalty) Romans 6:23.
2) There was no such command/law in force from Adam to Moses.
3) Where there is no law, there is no transgression (sin) to cause death.
4) All died between Adam and Moses, where death is always due to sin (Romans 6:23).
5) What sin caused their death?
6) Imputation of Adam's sin/guilt (Romans 5:18) caused their death.
And now for the more complex part, explaining Romans 5:18-19:
The Bible teaches that we are born spiritually dead (Genesis 2:17; Ephesians 2:1; Colossians 2:13)
in unbelief and condemned to hell (John 3:18-19, John 3:36).
In Romans 5:12-21, Paul establishes our responsibility for this condemnation into which we are born, where he uses two illustrations to show that man is responsible for the sin of Adam's transgression:
(1) in 5:12-14, Paul shows that even those who were not guilty of the sin of transgression (because there was no law to transgress, Romans 4:15, Romans 5:13), died anyway (5:14)--proof that God held them all guilty (all sinned, 5:12) of the sin ("sin was in the world," 5:13) of Adam's transgression, because that was the only sin in existence ("available") to cause them to be guilty of death (Romans 6:23).
In 5:15-16, Paul contrasts, and then
(2) in 5:17-19, Paul parallels the trespass of Adam with the righteousness of Jesus Christ.
Note that Paul says in 5:18 that we are all condemned by Adam's trespass, just as we are made righteous by Christ's obedience.
Christ was a second Adam (5:14; 1 Corinthians 15:45), meaning that our interest (involvement) in the two of them is of the same nature (1 Corinthians 15:22).
In the one man, we were made sinners, just as in the one man we are made righteous.
Neither our condemnation nor our righteousness are incurred.
Paul is drawing clear parallelisms of imputation in 5:18-19, so that the last half of each verse gives the true meaning of the first half of each verse. In neither half of the parallel does the outcome (guilt, righteousness) have anything to do with what men did, or our involvement would not be of the same nature and the parallelism would be destroyed.
The clear meaning is that Adam's guilt is imputed to us, just as (in the same way) Christ's righteousness is imputed to us (Romans 4:1-11).
The Bible teaches that man is responsible for (guilty of) the sentence of condemnation into which he is born because of the sin/guilt of Adam which is imputed to him.
Just how Scripture demonstrates that God can hold man responsible for Adam's sin/guilt when man did not personally incur the sin of Adam is another discussion. . .which I can be persuaded to present.![]()
If it's about imputation of Adam's sin/guilt, I think we have pretty much covered that waterfront, no need to post anything more.I have written a reply. I'm just hesitating to post it. It is much of the same stuff we have discussed before.
Agreed. . .through obedience, prayer and in his word written.I want to clearify one thing. I believe that we are saved, coming into the right relationship with God, through repentance and faith. As we have a newborn relationship with God, we need to nurture this relationship and that is done through living in obedience. If we fall back into living in disobedience we are in danger of losing it all.
Faith in what?