What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[zoidar]

Your issue is with Scripture, not with me.

Clare, do you love Jesus?

 

[Alive2]

All in fun, lighten up friend : )

Well then, I apologize.

All in fun, lighten up friend : )

 

[Clare73]

And if that one was not Ro 5:12-18 with Clare teaching it, well everyone was just out of luck : )

Feel free in your exegesis of Romans 5:12-18 to demonstrate what you think is error, being true to its words and context, and dealing with all the issues/questions involved.

Until then, it's all just assertion without Biblical demonstration and, therefore, lacking merit.

 

[Clare73]

Clare, do you love Jesus?

Non-responsive. . .

Do you?

The best thing you've said so far.

Feel free in your exegesis of Romans 5:12-14 to demonstrate what you think is error, being true to its words and context, and dealing with all the issues/questions involved.

 

[misput]

Feel free in your exegesis of Romans 5:12-18 to demonstrate what you think is error, being true to its words and context, and dealing with all the issues/questions involved.

Until then, it's all just assertion without Biblical demonstration and, therefore, lacking merit.

So repetitive Been there, done that, long ago : )

 

[Clare73]

So repetitive Been there, done that, long ago : )

Non-responsive. . .

 

[misput]

When I say something about scripture it is drawing from everything I know, so you are getting it all, be it little or much, right or wrong. Like it or not, is fine.

 

[misput]

Non-responsive. . .

Not true. . . .

 

[zoidar]

Non-responsive. . .

Do you?

The best thing you've said so far.

Yes! Though I want to come back to how it was when I first got saved.

I don't know if you mean it or if you are saying it is a dumb question

I'm asking because I was wondering what kind of relationship you have to Jesus. Some Reformers seem to have their focus on the Godhead. Almost like Jesus comes second. It's just a feeling I got, could be wrong about it.

Feel free in your exegesis of Romans 5:12-14 to demonstrate what you think is error, being true to its words and context, and dealing with all the issues/questions involved.

I have done my best. I have read a few commentators on it too, to see how they exegete it. If you are right about it fine. Then we have Adam's guilt imputed and Christ's righteousness through faith imputed. What does that change? We still need to live a righteous life anyhow.

 

[misput]

Yes!

I'm asking because I was wondering what kind of relationship you have to Jesus. Some Reformers seem to have their focus on the Godhead. Almost like Jesus comes second. It's just a feeling I got, could be wrong about it.



I have done my best. I have read a few commentators on it too, to see how they exegete it. If you are right about it fine. Then we have Adam's guilt imputed and Christ's righteousness through faith imputed. What does that change? We still need to live a righteous life anyhow.

Good reasoning. The only thing i would change is: We still need to try to live a righteous life anyhow.

 

[zoidar]

Good reasoning. The only thing i would change is: We still need to try to live a righteous life anyhow.

No one lives a perfect, sinless life. I didn't mean we can do that.

 

[Clare73]

I don't know if you mean it or if you are saying it is a dumb question.

It felt derogatory.

I'm asking because I was wondering what kind of relationship you have to Jesus. Some Reformers seem to have their focus on the Godhead. Almost like Jesus comes second. It's just a feeling I got, could be wrong about it.

Good question. . .good intuition. . .bringing to light a good point.

Is Jesus not the Godhead?
Did he not come to, among other things, reveal the Father to us?
Was not the Father his primary focus?
My understanding of and relationship to God, which is the Godhead, is in, through and on the pattern of Jesus. The same with the Holy Spirit.

 

[zoidar]

Good question. . .good intuition. . .bringing to light a good point.

Is Jesus not the Godhead?
Did he not come to, among other things, reveal the Father to us?
Was not the Father his primary focus?
My understanding of and relationship to God, which is the Godhead, is in, through and on the pattern of Jesus. The same with the Holy Spirit.

Thanks! I have to think about this and get back to you.

 

[Clare73]

I have done my best. I have read a few commentators on it too, to see how they exegete it. If you are right about it fine. Then we have Adam's guilt imputed and Christ's righteousness through faith imputed. What does that change? We still need to live a righteous life anyhow.

It changes nothing, it simply secures God's will that all men shall be inclosed (shut in, with no escape)
in disobedience (sin/guilt), so that all are totally dependant on his mercy (Romans 11:32).

And then in relation to commentators' presenting the imputation of Adam's sin, I present a summary of NT teaching on the matter (Romans 5:12-14):

1) Death is caused by sin (transgression of a command with a death penalty) Romans 6:23.

2) There was no such command/law in force from Adam to Moses.

3) Where there is no law, there is no transgression (sin) to cause death.

4) All died between Adam and Moses, where death is always due to sin (Romans 6:23).

5) What sin caused their death?

6) Imputation of Adam's sin/guilt (Romans 5:18) caused their death.

And now for the more complex part, explaining Romans 5:18-19:

The Bible teaches that we are born spiritually dead (Genesis 2:17; Ephesians 2:1; Colossians 2:13)
in unbelief and condemned to hell (John 3:18-19, John 3:36).
In Romans 5:12-21, Paul establishes our responsibility for this condemnation into which we are born, where he uses two illustrations to show that man is responsible for the sin of Adam's transgression:

(1) in 5:12-14, Paul shows that even those who were not guilty of the sin of transgression (because there was no law to transgress, Romans 4:15, Romans 5:13), died anyway (5:14)--proof that God held them all guilty (all sinned, 5:12) of the sin ("sin was in the world," 5:13) of Adam's transgression, because that was the only sin in existence ("available") to cause them to be guilty of death (Romans 6:23).
In 5:15-16, Paul contrasts, and then

(2) in 5:17-19, Paul parallels the trespass of Adam with the righteousness of Jesus Christ.
Romans 5:17-19:
"17) For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
18) Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men,
so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.
19) For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous."

Note that Paul says in 5:18 that we are all condemned by Adam's trespass, just as we are made righteous by Christ's obedience.
Christ was a second Adam (5:14; 1 Corinthians 15:45), meaning that our interest (involvement) in the two Adam's is of the same nature (1 Corinthians 15:22).
In the one man, we were made sinners, just as in the one man we are made righteous.
Neither our condemnation nor our righteousness are incurred by us personally.

Paul is drawing clear parallelisms of imputation in 5:18-19, so that the last half of each verse (so also) gives the true meaning of the first half of each verse (just as).
In neither half of the parallel does the outcome (guilt, righteousness) have anything to do with what men did, or our involvement would not be of the same nature and the parallelism would be destroyed.

The clear meaning is that Adam's guilt is imputed to us, just as (in the same way) Christ's righteousness is imputed to us (Romans 4:1-11).
The Bible teaches that man is responsible for (guilty of) the sentence of condemnation into which he is born because of the sin/guilt of Adam which is imputed to him.

Just how Scripture demonstrates that God in justice can hold man responsible for Adam's sin/guilt when man did not personally incur the sin of Adam is another discussion. . .

 

[zoidar]

Is Jesus not the Godhead?
Did he not come to, among other things, reveal the Father to us?
Was not the Father his primary focus?
My understanding of and relationship to God, which is the Godhead, is in, through and on the pattern of Jesus. The same with the Holy Spirit.

I find the Godhead to be a much more impersonal description of God than Jesus Christ. To me Godhead sounds quite abstract. The Father is a more personal description of God than Godhead, someone I can pray to and trust. Godhead seems more of a theoretical description of the trinity, than someone I can personally rely on and have a relationship with. To me even loving the Father is a bit of a struggle, who I find more strict than the Son. Even I am very thankful that God the Father is a good God, it is Jesus the Son I fell in love with.

That's my spontaneous thoughts.

 

[Der Alte]

I find the Godhead to be a much more impersonal description of God than Jesus Christ. To me Godhead sounds quite abstract. The Father is a more personal description of God than Godhead, someone I can pray to and trust. Godhead seems more of a theoretical description of the trinity, than someone I can personally rely on and have a relationship with. To me even loving the Father is a bit of a struggle, who I find more strict than the Son. Even I am very thankful that God the Father is a good God, it is Jesus the Son I fell in love with.
That's my spontaneous thoughts.

I read somewhere that "Godhead" is just a variation of "Godhood", the state of being God. Similar ro "Fatherhood","motherhood" etc.

 

[Clare73]

I find the Godhead to be a much more impersonal description of God than Jesus Christ. To me Godhead sounds quite abstract. The Father is a more personal description of God than Godhead, someone I can pray to and trust. Godhead seems more of a theoretical description of the trinity, than someone I can personally rely on and have a relationship with. To me even loving the Father is a bit of a struggle, who I find more strict than the Son. Even I am very thankful that God the Father is a good God, it is Jesus the Son I fell in love with.
That's my spontaneous thoughts.

And I love 'em.

 

[zoidar]

It changes nothing, it simply secures God's will that all men shall be inclosed (shut in, with no escape)
in disobedience (sin/guilt), so that all are totally dependant on his mercy (Romans 11:32).

And then in relation to commentators' presenting the imputation of Adam's sin, I present a summary of NT teaching on the matter (Romans 5:12-14):

1) Death is caused by sin (transgression of a command with a death penalty) Romans 6:23.

2) There was no such command/law in force from Adam to Moses.

3) Where there is no law, there is no transgression (sin) to cause death.

4) All died between Adam and Moses, where death is always due to sin (Romans 6:23).

5) What sin caused their death?

6) Imputation of Adam's sin/guilt (Romans 5:18) caused their death.

And now for the more complex part, explaining Romans 5:18-19:

The Bible teaches that we are born spiritually dead (Genesis 2:17; Ephesians 2:1; Colossians 2:13)
in unbelief and condemned to hell (John 3:18-19, John 3:36).
In Romans 5:12-21, Paul establishes our responsibility for this condemnation into which we are born, where he uses two illustrations to show that man is responsible for the sin of Adam's transgression:

(1) in 5:12-14, Paul shows that even those who were not guilty of the sin of transgression (because there was no law to transgress, Romans 4:15, Romans 5:13), died anyway (5:14)--proof that God held them all guilty (all sinned, 5:12) of the sin ("sin was in the world," 5:13) of Adam's transgression, because that was the only sin in existence ("available") to cause them to be guilty of death (Romans 6:23).
In 5:15-16, Paul contrasts, and then

(2) in 5:17-19, Paul parallels the trespass of Adam with the righteousness of Jesus Christ.
Note that Paul says in 5:18 that we are all condemned by Adam's trespass, just as we are made righteous by Christ's obedience.
Christ was a second Adam (5:14; 1 Corinthians 15:45), meaning that our interest (involvement) in the two of them is of the same nature (1 Corinthians 15:22).
In the one man, we were made sinners, just as in the one man we are made righteous.
Neither our condemnation nor our righteousness are incurred.

Paul is drawing clear parallelisms of imputation in 5:18-19, so that the last half of each verse gives the true meaning of the first half of each verse. In neither half of the parallel does the outcome (guilt, righteousness) have anything to do with what men did, or our involvement would not be of the same nature and the parallelism would be destroyed.
The clear meaning is that Adam's guilt is imputed to us, just as (in the same way) Christ's righteousness is imputed to us (Romans 4:1-11).
The Bible teaches that man is responsible for (guilty of) the sentence of condemnation into which he is born because of the sin/guilt of Adam which is imputed to him.

Just how Scripture demonstrates that God can hold man responsible for Adam's sin/guilt when man did not personally incur the sin of Adam is another discussion. . .which I can be persuaded to present.

I have written a reply. I'm just hesitating to post it. It is much of the same stuff we have discussed before.

I want to clearify one thing. I believe that we are saved, coming into the right relationship with God, through repentance and faith. As we have a newborn relationship with God, we need to nurture this relationship and that is done through living in obedience, living a righteous life (not a perfect life). If we fall back into disobedience and sinful living we are in danger of losing it all.

 

[Clare73]

I have written a reply. I'm just hesitating to post it. It is much of the same stuff we have discussed before.

If it's about imputation of Adam's sin/guilt, I think we have pretty much covered that waterfront, no need to post anything more.

I want to clearify one thing. I believe that we are saved, coming into the right relationship with God, through repentance and faith. As we have a newborn relationship with God, we need to nurture this relationship and that is done through living in obedience. If we fall back into living in disobedience we are in danger of losing it all.

Agreed. . .through obedience, prayer and in his word written.

Faith in what?

 

[zoidar]

Faith in what?

Faith in that God sent Jesus to die for our sins.