What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[Clare73]

In the passages below I find teaching on the judgment straight from the Judge. Jesus reveals a severe judgment upon unbelievers and unfaithful servants. Yet a distinction is made between the unfaithful, the unbelieving, and those who knew not. Those who knew not receive a light punishment. Think about the ramifications of that. Revelation tells us that the book of life is to be opened at the White Throne judgment. Why open it if no one's name is written in there?
Luke 12:43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
Matthew 10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
Matthew 11:22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
Matthew 11:24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

Yes, all punishment is not equal.

 

[Clare73]

Well, that is funny, if a bit on the bitter side... kudos!

It was hysterical when I misunderstood it. . .not so funny otherwise.

 

[Clare73]

Yes, I meant the unregenerated, I thought that was obvious.
I see you put a lot of effort to post many verses, but you are still not explaining them.
To explain them you need to answer things like: What they mean? Why do you believe they mean this? And show how you come to this conclusion.
Let's take this verse from your first post, I have seen you use a couple of times.

John 3:3-8: "No one can see the kingdom of God until he is born from above"​

Then answer things like: What do you mean by "see the kingdom of God"? Why do you believe it means this? Why do you think repentance comes after and not before being born from above? Don't just quote other verses, then you need to explain them too.

To see (eidon) means "to know, to be acquainted with."

You cannot respond to information regarding the kingdom of God because it is foolishness to you, you cannot understand it (1 Corinthians 2:14) until you have the Holy Spirit, which is regeneration.

 

[Greg Cheney]

BTW, I believe God commands absolutely all men everywhere to repent. I do not believe the command implies the ability to obey.

So you think God commands people to do things that he has decreed they are unable to do, making him insincere in his claims. I see.

 

[Clare73]

Yeah, right, only if you ignore the one thing wrong that was corrected and the four other things that hinted at a sinful state in HIS creation which should move us to redefine 'very good'...

We are to disagree with God now?

First, a note about there being no PROOF verses such as a stick in your eye type of proof. Even Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed you in the womb I knew you...is explained away by the orthodox folk who have had 4000 years to puzzle out alternative meanings for these HINTS to the doctrine of our pce which may be the theology that is to be hidden till the end times.


Sin in the Garden prior to the eating of the fruit:

1. Adam was being rebellious to seek his mate amongst the animals. Not only was it not good (lo tov) that Adam was alone but this was corrected by the arrival of Eve before things were finally called very good.

But why was Adam looking for a helpmeet among the animals in the first pace?? GOD knew HE had Eve planned so an animal wasn't in HIS plans at all. Who thought of the idea to look among the animals for his helpmeet anyway?? Certainly it was not GOD! So if Adam was righteous and faithful, it seems logical that GOD would say, "Not here, bud, I got a woman for you!" Why did GOD let him go through the charade of looking amongst the animals for his helpmeet if Adam was not being rebellious?

2. The root word for Adam and Eve being naked and the serpent being crafty in an evil is the same word, `rm.* They can be read the opposite, ie, Adam and Eve were crafty and the serpent was naked if so desired. The vowels that make them to be naked or crafty were not put into the writing until ç600AD. The reason the Rabbis and the Church Father's chose naked for Adam and Eve was their decision that all mankind was created at conception (traducianism) or at birth (creationism of the soul), so as newly created in the garden they had to be innocent since GOD does not create evil...[at least until HE wants evil people so HE supposedly created the rest of us in Adam's sin but that is a different blasphemy].

*There is also a perfectly good word about Noah that describes the nakedness of being unclothed with absolutely no chance of thinking it meant evil.

Naked is a metaphor for evil in other parts of scripture. Rev 3:17 You say, ‘I am rich; I have grown wealthy and need nothing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, white garments so that you may be clothed and your shameful nakedness not exposed, and salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see. Where is the sin in being unclothed in your own garden as GOD made you? Even if naked refers to sex, how could it be sinful if they were commanded to procreate? No, the telling part of this verse is "They were not ashamed!". If there was no sin in being naked then why bring up shame? They were not over 12 feet tall either but there is no hint that they should be ashamed of that.

The reference to their shame is echoed in Rev 3:17-18, being a sinner is shameful but those blinded by sin need their eyes opened by the Lord's salve and their shame covered by white garments, the righteous acts of the saints, Rev 19:18.

It is also curious how, when their eyes were finally opened to their sin, they saw their being naked, a nakedness they had before they ate, not their eating. The only thing that happened when they ate was that they now saw their sinfulness / nakedness and were ashamed but their nakedness did not change in the least. So, if being unclothed is no sin, why did they suddenly become ashamed of their nakedness when they sinned?

3. Eve treats the serpent like a mentor or pastor. Is it not a sin to fraternize with a demon this way? IF she was innocent then why did GOD allow the serpent access to her and not warn her to beware of him? How can we consider HIM to be the most loving to this innocent girl, letting the serpent deceive her? BUT if she was already sinful and the serpent was her friend, a friend whom she had to learn to repudiate, then HE might have let the serpent deceive her to open her eyes to her own sinfulness and to the serpent's sin so she would never choose to follow him over her GOD ever again.

4. The bible is pretty clear that the law / commands are given to convict sinners of their sinfulness.
1 Tim 1:9...knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, etc... Why? Romans 3:20 For the Law merely brings awareness [convicts] of sin.
Thus for Adam and Eve to be given a command is an indication that they were sinners who needed their eyes to be opened to their sin by their failure to obey an easy command.

5. Adam was first to bring sin into the world. Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man...yet the serpent entered the garden with an evil nature and evil intent before Adam ate and Eve sinned by befriending him or at least by eating first so Adam was the third person to sin in the world. This contradiction is impossible unless he was already a sinner when he came into the world and brought his sin with him as the first person to be sown, not created as per Matt 13:36-39, ie, brought into the world by the breath of GOD.

 

[Clare73]

Having Adam's guilt imputed to us does not make an innocent person (innocent of any choice to sin) to become a sinner

Having Adam's guilt imputed to us is the reason we are born condemned (Romans 5:18a),
just as having Christ's righteousness imputed to us is the reason we are not condemned (Romans 5:18b, 5:19b).

any more than having Christ's righteousness imputed to sinners makes us fully righteous with no need for any sanctification!

Contraire. . .

By faith God declares us righteous with the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ, in right standing with his justice; i.e., "not guilty," sins remitted and adopted sons, just as he did Abraham by faith (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3).

The only people born into Adam to have his guilt imputed to them were already sinners by their own free will decision to sin against GOD

Nope. . .

Not according to the testimony of Romans 5:18:
"The result of one trespass was condemnation for all men."

when they were sown, not created, by conception into mankind, Matt 13:36-39.

Distinction without a difference. . .both the wheat and the tares are "sown."

Bo His guilt and death imputed to them do not create them or make them to be sinners

Correct.
Adam's guilt imputed to all mankind (Romans 5:12-18) causes their condemnation at birth.

It is Adam's (corrupt) nature inherited by all mankind that makes them sinners.

 

[Clare73]

.

 

[zoidar]

Not according to the testimony of Romans 5:18:
"The result of one trespass was condemnation for all men."

I'm no Greek scholar, but the word "Eis" can be translated a few different ways. So I don't see that sin necessarily was imputed to us.

YLT - Romans 3:18
So, then, as through one offence to all men it is to condemnation, so also through one declaration of 'Righteous' it is to all men to justification of life;

 

[TedT]

Having Adam's guilt imputed to us is the reason we are born condemned (Romans 5:18a),

AGREED! but this imputation is NOT the reason we are sinful and subject to the consequences of being sinful, ie, suffering and death!!!!

We are sinful by our own free will decision to sin against HIM but putting us into Adam puts us into Adam's condemnation of death by imputation so that Christ only need to die once for all!

 

[zoidar]

AGREED! but this imputation is NOT the reason we are sinful and subject to the consequences of being sinful, ie, suffering and death!!!!

We are sinful by our own free will decision to sin against HIM but putting us into Adam puts us into Adam's condemnation of death by imputation so that Christ only need to die once for all!

Then you can't mean Adam's guilt of sin was imputed to us, but his "sinful nature".

 

[TedT]

Then you can't mean Adam's guilt of sin was imputed to us, but his "sinful nature".

No sir, only his condemnation to suffer death. Our guilt and our sinfulness were produced by our own free will decision to rebel against either HIS majesty or HIS command.

 

[misput]

Having Adam's guilt imputed to us does not make an innocent person (innocent of any choice to sin) to become a sinner any more than having Christ's righteousness imputed to sinners makes us fully righteous with no need for any sanctification!

The only people born into Adam to have his guilt imputed to them were already sinners by their own free will decision to sin against GOD when they were sown, not created, by conception into mankind, Matt 13:36-39. His guilt and death imputed to them do not create them or make them to be sinners (GOD cannot create evil!*) but show them to be already sinners and allows Christ to die but once for all elect sinners.

Imputation of guilt or righteousness changes only how GOD sees and treat us, imputation does not change our condition from innocent to evil nor evil to innocent or fully sanctified!!

*
Light cannot create darkness.
A good tree cannot put forth rotten fruit.
A stream of life giving water cannot put forth salt or brackish water.
Psalm 5:4 You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil; with you the wicked cannot dwell...so HE would never create a sinner by any means at all.

Imputed guilt is just another way of saying born with a fleshly nature, which you are probably right, Adam had from the beginning, after all, he was flesh as well as spirit. Neither one means we are born condemned of sin, totally depraved or sinful. These come about as we continue to live and hopefully are followed by being born again, which Jesus seems to indicate is a mystery and everyone seems to have a different experience.

 

[RickReads]

The word of God is used for your "entertainment"?

No, all you Calvins are.

 

[misput]

The word of God is used for your "entertainment"?

What is wrong with entertainment? You are sometimes entertaining, preachers are also and foolish as well, says the scripture.

 

[RickReads]

I don't think he meant what you said but I sure have seen some " entertaining " interaction of forums with some discussions. Many of which are far removed from any biblical truth so what is left is much more like entertainment then it is biblical truth and reality. Sometimes there is nothing but a bunch of mud slinging going on rather then a good dialogue discussing issues and differences in our beliefs/doctrines.

In her zeal to toss mud at me, she referred to Mark's post as the "word of God"

 

[RickReads]

What is wrong with entertainment? You are sometimes entertaining, preachers are also and foolish as well, says the scripture.

Thx, I always worked for a living so Bible study has always been my favorite recreational hobby. Some people like baseball games. I like reading the Bible.

 

[Clare73]

I'm no Greek scholar, but the word "Eis" can be translated a few different ways. So I don't see that sin necessarily was imputed to us.

It is the conclusion of Paul's carefully-crafted and somewhat "difficult-to-understand" argument (2 Peter 3:16) in Romans 5:12-18,
where he demonstrates that the first Adam is a pattern for the second Adam; i.e., Christ (Romans 5:14),
which takes us back to God's purpose in the two Adam's (1 Corinthians 15:21-23, 1 Corinthians 15:45-49).

So of what would the sinful Adam be a pattern for the sinless Christ?!!!

Answer: imputation/reckoning of their standing with God for all those born of each of them. . .of Adam's guilt for all those born of Adam, and of Christ's righteousness for all those born of Christ's Holy Spirit.

By faith Christ's righteousness is imputed/reckoned to us
just as Adam's guilt was imputed/reckoned to us (Romans 5:18-19),
just as by faith God's righteousness (Romans 1:17, Romans 3:21) was imputed/reckoned to Abraham (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3).

YLT - Romans 3:18
So, then, as through one offence to all men it is to condemnation, so also through one declaration of 'Righteous' it is to all men to justification of life;

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Thx, I always worked for a living so Bible study has always been my favorite recreational hobby. Some people like baseball games. I like reading the Bible.

Amen it’s been a passion of mine every since I came to know the Lord .

 

[Clare73]

AGREED! but this imputation is NOT the reason we are sinful and subject to the consequences of being sinful, ie, suffering and death!!!!

Correct. . .this imputation is the reason for our condemnation from birth (Romans 5:18).

Our inherited fallen nature is the reason for our personal sin and and its consequences.

We are sinful by our own free will decision to sin against HIM but putting us into Adam puts us into Adam's condemnation of death by imputation so that Christ only need to die once for all!

Where do we find that correlation in Scripture?

 

[Clare73]

Then you can't mean Adam's guilt of sin was imputed to us, but his "sinful nature".

Adam's guilt is imputed.

Adam's fallen nature is inherited.