What is True Messianic Breaking of Bread?

daq

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Hi Daq,
I am just running now but wanted to respond to your first point before I go. Normally you are correct, that "kata" can mean down, or have a meaning with a downward sense, but that is when its used in the Genitive case (see UBS definition below). But in the first two scriptures you give kata is used with the Accusative case, and therefore has the meaning of according to, or corresponding to:

Kata. preposition accusative

[UBS] kata, prep. with: (1) accusative: according to, corresponding to, with reference to, just as ( ta. kÅ tina one's case or circumstances; kÅ ta. auvta, so, in the same way; kÅ evme, my; kÅ to. auvto, together Ac 14.1; kÅ ti, how Lk 1.18); used distributively with numerals and places; in; for; for the purpose of; at, about, (of time); on, upon, along, through, to, toward; off, opposite, near, bordering on; with, by means of, because of; (2) genitive: against; down, down from; throughout; by (of oaths) ; over (of authority)

So above, when this preposition is in the Genitive, is when it means down, against, etc, but in the scriptures you gave it is in the Accusative, so it means "according to."

The third verse you mention (Luke 23:17) is not in the better manuscripts, it was considered an addition (see Metzger's committee), so it is not in my Greek text.

So the true meaning of those scriptures you quoted is that it was "according to" the custom of the feast that they released one:

NAS Matthew 27:15 Now at the feast the governor was accustomed to release for the multitude any one prisoner whom they wanted.

It did not mean they were "down into" the seven day feast. As they say today, are you down with it?! : )

Are you down with where that custom was derived? ;)

HaDerekh you will never arrive at the truth using false, reverse, Roman Catholic logic.

I will ask you the question one more time that you refused to answer:

If you had a birthday party Friday afternoon, with cake and balloons and lots party things, and all "these things" happened Friday afternoon, please answer my question, what is "the first day since these things happened"?

Since I'm guessing you will not answer my question, this will be my last post to you on this subject.

Alex, I notice you quote the Young's Literal Bible sometimes?
What is wrong with it in this instance?
Seems pretty straightforward to me:

Luke 24:21 YLT
21 and we were hoping that he it is who is about to redeem Israel, and also with all these things, this third day is passing to-day, since these things happened.


According to Petros Kleophas the third day was not even yet complete. :D
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Are you down with where that custom was derived? ^_^



Alex, I notice you quote the Young's Literal Bible sometimes?
What is wrong with it in this instance?
Seems pretty straightforward to me:

Luke 24:21 YLT
21 and we were hoping that he it is who is about to redeem Israel, and also with all these things, this third day is passing to-day, since these things happened.


According to Petros Kleophas the third day was not even yet complete. :D
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So we know it was not "after the 3rd day"...
 
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daq

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So we know it was not "after the 3rd day"...

Yes, "after the third day" would logically be sometime within the fourth day. Likewise I ate two evenings ago and this morning I began to hunger. I always begin to hunger sometime in the third day. ^_^
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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The book of Jonah suggests that Jonah became a sign to the Ninevites through the miraculous way in which God raised Jonah out of the whale’s belly and cast him alive on shore. So too, this was the only sign to THIS evil and adulterous generation (as were the Ninevites). The resurrection was the sign not the exact time period. So much for you 72ers :)
 
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AbbaLove

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Alex, I notice you quote the Young's Literal Bible sometimes?
Luke 24:21 YLT
21 and we were hoping that he it is who is about to redeem Israel, and also with all these things, this third day is passing to-day, since these things happened.

According to Petros Kleophas the third day was not even yet complete. :D
It's not easy knowing when you have your tongue in your cheek as you previously informed me you do so on occasion. :D

The third day (5th day to the 7th day) was passing which means Yeshua arose on the 1st day of the week sometime before daybreak (aka "after three days"). Did you forget that Yeshua had said, "and after three days to rise again;" (Mark 8:31 YLT). In case you weren't aware Mark's Gospel is known for it's reliability with as much accuracy as possible. :)

 
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daq

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It's not easy knowing when you have your tongue in your cheek as you previously informed me you do so on occasion. :D

The third day (5th day to the 7th day) was passing which means Yeshua arose on the 1st day of the week sometime before daybreak (aka "after three days"). Did you forget that Yeshua had said, "and after three days to rise again;" (Mark 8:31 YLT). In case you weren't aware Mark's Gospel is known for it's reliability with as much accuracy as possible. :)


How could you have already forgotten what was posted the last time you brought up the same issue? It is not healthy to cause contradictions in an effort to justify a particular stance, that is, pitting scripture against scripture to nullify what one does not want to accept.

Mark 8:31 TR
31 και ηρξατο διδασκειν αυτους οτι δει τον υιον του ανθρωπου πολλα παθειν και αποδοκιμασθηναι απο των πρεσβυτερων και αρχιερεων και γραμματεων και αποκτανθηναι και μετα τρεις ημερας αναστηναι


Same problem others have: forcing twentieth century rules on a text that was written when there were no such rules while ignoring other clear plain statements that contradict the so-called rules. Yeshua says many times, "the third day", and here they are again from your own thread:

As for what was said about meta it stands
Quote:]If you were sick, and slept for a full seventy-two hours, then you would have slept for three days. If then you slept for several more hours, and awoke sometime in the seventy-fifth hour of your rest, you would not have awoken in the third day but rather in the fourth day because anytime after seventy-two hours is into the fourth day. This is the simple reality concerning measurements of time. If you desire to ignore reality and believe what you want to believe in spite of the facts that is your business but it is not right for you to then claim that those who do not agree with you are not Messianic or that all who are truly Messianic must agree with you. The words of Yeshua himself clearly dispute your fourth day resurrection understanding:

Matthew 16:21 KJV From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

Matthew 17:23 KJV And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry.

Matthew 20:19 KJV And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again.

Mark 10:34 KJV And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.

Luke 9:22 KJV Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.

Luke 18:33 KJV And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.

Luke 24:7 KJV Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.[End Quote. :)

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Alex Tennent

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Are you down with where that custom was derived? ;)

Daq, I would guess it comes from a remembrance of their escaping death in Egypt, or perhaps from the one lamb that was released at Atonement? I have not studied it but would be glad to hear?

And Daq you wrote:
Alex, I notice you quote the Young's Literal Bible sometimes?
What is wrong with it in this instance?
Seems pretty straightforward to me:

Luke 24:21 YLT
21 and we were hoping that he it is who is about to redeem Israel, and also with all these things, this third day is passing to-day, since these things happened. (end quote)

Yes, Young's Literal can often be a better translation than most. But if like many before them that believed the Roman Catholic idea of a "Good Friday" crucifixion, then they might be inclined to translate it in a way that would fit their doctrine. There are often times where the Greek can be taken different ways, so when people play ping pong with scriptures they will not see the truth, one must have their belief fit all the scriptures.

That said, even the way Young's translates this could be taken the correct way, that this third day is passing. Because if Jesus had not arisen before 6:00 AM as he did, then they would be correct in their sadness that the time had passed.
(PS in Luke 24:21 the word "today" is not in the Greek, and neither is the word "passing").

So Daq are you saying the Messiah was crucified on Good Friday, as you hold to this way of translating this verse?

And you did not respond back concerning those verses you said mean "down into" the feast, instead of "according to" the Feast? Do you agree with what I brought there?
 
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Alex Tennent

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How could you have already forgotten what was posted the last time you brought up the same issue? It is not healthy to cause contradictions in an effort to justify a particular stance, that is, pitting scripture against scripture to nullify what one does not want to accept.

Mark 8:31 TR
31 και ηρξατο διδασκειν αυτους οτι δει τον υιον του ανθρωπου πολλα παθειν και αποδοκιμασθηναι απο των πρεσβυτερων και αρχιερεων και γραμματεων και αποκτανθηναι και μετα τρεις ημερας αναστηναι

Daq, let me give that verse from our favorite translation, Young's Literal:

YLT Mark 8:31 and began to teach them, that it behoveth the Son of Man to suffer many things, and to be rejected by the elders, and chief priests, and scribes, and to be killed, and after three days to rise again;

The Greek word translated "after" correctly by Young's is meta, and when it is in the Accusative it means after, as UBS points out for Mark 8:31 :

meta. preposition accusative

[UBS] meta, prep. with: (1) gen. with, in company with, among; by, in; on the side of; against; (2) acc. after, behind ( meta. to, with inf. after)

I am not high tech enough to use the cool green smileys :)
 
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AbbaLove

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YLT Mark 8:31 and began to teach them, that it behoveth the Son of Man to suffer many things, and to be rejected by the elders, and chief priests, and scribes, and to be killed, and after three days to rise again;

The Greek word translated "after" correctly by Young's is meta, and when it is in the Accusative it means after, as UBS points out for Mark 8:31 :

meta. preposition accusative

[UBS] meta, prep. with: (1) gen. with, in company with, among; by, in; on the side of; against; (2) acc. after, behind ( meta. to, with inf. after)
Yeshua was killed on the 5th day approximately 3-4 hrs before the beginning of the 6th day. On the 1st day of the week He arose while it was still dark, before sunrise. That means that from the time He was killed to the time He arose was after three days. When counting from the 4th day at 2-3pm to 2-3pm on the 7th day ("on the third day") wouild not make it possible for Yeshua to arise on the 1st day of the week. However, when counting 24 hr days Yeshua doesn't appear to Mary until several hours into the 4th day (1st day of week), thus "after three days," but not "on the third day." In order for Yeshua to have the breath of God revive Him "on the third day" He wouild have been alive before sunset, while it was still the 7th Day Sabbath. Is it not possible that Yeshua remained in the tomb for several hours while His wounds were healed? He may not have left the tomb until the earthquake when the stone was rolled away, while it was still dark before sunrise on the 1st day of the week, "after three days."

YLT Mark 9:31
for He was teaching His disciples, and He said to them, `The Son of Man is being delivered to the hands of men, and they shall kill Him, and having been killed the third day He shall rise,' ...

In the 5th day scenario shown below 3 1/2 days would be on the fourth day "after three days" but not "on the third day."

Day 1 of Crucifixion = Nisan 14 on 5th day of week
Night 1 = 6th day beginning at sundown to 6th day sunrise (12 hrs)
Day 2 = 6th day sunrise to 6th day sunsetting (12 hrs)

Night 2 = 7th day beginning at sundown to 7th day sunrise (12 hrs)
Day 3 = 7th day sunrise to 7th day sunsetting (12 hrs)

Night 3 = 1st day beginning at sundown to 1st day sunrise (12 hrs) ... Yeshua arose "on the third day"

In the "Good Friday" scenario shown below 2 1/2 days would be "on the third day" but not "after three days."

Day 1 of Crucifixion = Nisan 14 on 6th day of week
Night 1 = 7th day beginning at sundown to 7th day sunrise (12 hrs)
Day 2 = 7th day sunrise to 7th day sunsetting (12 hrs)

Night 2 = 1st day beginning at sundown to 1st day sunrise (12 hrs)
Day 3 = 1st day sunrise to 1st day sunsetting (12 hrs) ... Yeshua arose "on the third day"
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Yeshua was killed on the 5th day approximately 3-4 hrs before the beginning of the 6th day. On the 1st day of the week He arose while it was still dark, before sunrise. That means that from the time He was killed to the time He arose was after three days. When counting from the 4th day at 2-3pm to 2-3pm on the 7th day ("on the third day") wouild not make it possible for Yeshua to arise on the 1st day of the week. However, when counting 24 hr days Yeshua doesn't appear to Mary until several hours into the 4th day (1st day of week), thus "after three days," but not "on the third day." In order for Yeshua to have the breath of God revive Him "on the third day" He wouild have been alive before sunset, while it was still the 7th Day Sabbath. Is it not possible that Yeshua remained in the tomb for several hours while His wounds were healed? He may not have left the tomb until the earthquake when the stone was rolled away, while it was still dark before sunrise on the 1st day of the week, "after three days."

YLT Mark 9:31
for He was teaching His disciples, and He said to them, `The Son of Man is being delivered to the hands of men, and they shall kill Him, and having been killed the third day He shall rise,' ...

In the 5th day scenario shown below 3 1/2 days would be on the fourth day "after three days" but not "on the third day."

Day 1 of Crucifixion = Nisan 14 on 5th day of week
Night 1 = 6th day beginning at sundown to 6th day sunrise (12 hrs)
Day 2 = 6th day sunrise to 6th day sunsetting (12 hrs)

Night 2 = 7th day beginning at sundown to 7th day sunrise (12 hrs)
Day 3 = 7th day sunrise to 7th day sunsetting (12 hrs)

Night 3 = 1st day beginning at sundown to 1st day sunrise (12 hrs) ... Yeshua arose "on the third day"

In the "Good Friday" scenario shown below 2 1/2 days would be "on the third day" but not "after three days."

Day 1 of Crucifixion = Nisan 14 on 6th day of week
Night 1 = 7th day beginning at sundown to 7th day sunrise (12 hrs)
Day 2 = 7th day sunrise to 7th day sunsetting (12 hrs)

Night 2 = 1st day beginning at sundown to 1st day sunrise (12 hrs)
Day 3 = 1st day sunrise to 1st day sunsetting (12 hrs) ... Yeshua arose "on the third day"

Why do you strain at a gnat but swallow a camel? The sign was His resurrection...
 
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Alex Tennent

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Is it not possible that Yeshua remained in the tomb for several hours while His wounds were healed? He may not have left the tomb until the earthquake when the stone was rolled away, while it was still dark before sunrise on the 1st day of the week, "after three days."

Hello AbbaLove,
We have to remember that these seven or eight quotes from the Messiah came about over a three year period, and were quoted by different men from different conversations all in various contexts. So with that in mind, if the conversation is focused on the first day (Thursday) when he will be ill treated, then he can say after three days (meaning after the one really bad day Thursday, then Friday, then also after Saturday), so in that conversation he is including Thursday. :

KJV Mark 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

And when the focus is on comparing himself to Jonah, maybe a year from that other conversation, he can say it differently, but still true as I have shown previously (or see my book, the Template Challenge chapter at the end of this post):

NAS Matthew 12:40 for just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the sea monster, so shall the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Then at other times, perhaps in another year and talking to another person he says "on the third day arise," very possibly comparing himself to what happened with Abraham:

NAS Genesis 22:4, 7, 8 On the third day Abraham raised his eyes and saw the place from a distance.
And Isaac spoke to Abraham his father and said, "My father!" And he said, "Here I am, my son." And he said, "Behold, the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?" 8 And Abraham said, "God will provide for Himself the lamb for the burnt offering, my son." So the two of them walked on together.

Or maybe even to another verse:

NAB Hosea 6:2 He will revive us after two days; on the third day he will raise us up, to live in his presence.

But whether or not those scriptures were in the Messiah's mind we know that he was not wrong in his statements, he meant each one in the context of when it was spoken:

NAS Matthew 17:23 and they will kill Him, and He will be raised on the third day." And they were deeply grieved.

So the verse above is simply saying he would be raised on the third day from the day he was killed, which is Sunday.

The Messiah knew he would be crucified at Passover, he obviously knew the typology involved, and that he was the true Passover lamb of God:

NAS Matthew 26:2 "You know that after two days the Passover is coming, and the Son of Man is to be delivered up for crucifixion."

He also knew that he would fulfill the First Fruit offering, which would be offered on the day after the Sabbath (i.e. Sunday, the first day) as the first fruits of the resurrection:

NAS 1 Corinthians 15:20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.

NAS 1 Corinthians 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,

He knew all these scriptures and how they would be fulfilled:

NAS Leviticus 23:10 "Speak to the sons of Israel, and say to them, 'When you enter the land which I am going to give to you and reap its harvest, then you shall bring in the sheaf of the first fruits of your harvest to the priest.

NAS Leviticus 23:11 'And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD for you to be accepted; on the day after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.

They are not going to complete this offering "on the Sabbath" for God clearly commanded it to be offered on the day after the Sabbath. And even if they decided to disobey God and do the offering on the Sabbath, God's word will not return void, he will raise the first fruits on the day after the Sabbath (very early on Sunday, the first day of the week).

So it all fits perfectly if we take all the pieces of the puzzle together.

See my book from page 376 on, and the charts there showing how all the scriptures fit:

http://themessianicfeast.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/TMF_Template-Challenge.pdf
 
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daq

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So Daq are you saying the Messiah was crucified on Good Friday, as you hold to this way of translating this verse?

I have already said, Friday 20 Abib, which is the same day Moshe lifted up the Rod of Elohim, in the sign of the Son of Man, and the Reed Sea was parted so that the people could Passover under the sign of the Son of Man upon dry land into the Great Shabbat Sanctuary of Rest as spoken in the Song of Moshe.

And you did not respond back concerning those verses you said mean "down into" the feast, instead of "according to" the Feast? Do you agree with what I brought there?

There are many more things I have said that you have already not responded to, even an entire post, but kata is nothing more than a side note among a group of much more important scripture portions and points. If I am incorrect about kata in that instance it changes nothing concerning what was presented in that post, including the secondary witness from Acts 12:1-4, which follows the same exact chronological format as already presented. However the past several posts have now brought up a much greater and more pressing issue, imo, which in your case and that of AbbaLove's forces a clear contradiction in the scriptures. I understand what I do from my attempts in study and prayer to resolve such issues and have peace with and in what I believe. Of the two following statements only one of them can be correct and only one of them is so plain that it cannot be misunderstood through translation because there really is no room for interpretion in the translation. If then one of them cannot be misunderstood it must be the other which is not properly understood; yet the one that is questionable is the one that you and AbbaLove seem to need so as to substantiate your claims:

Mark 8:31 KJV
31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

Mark 10:34 KJV
34 And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.


Which one is correct? They cannot both be correct. Either Yeshua rose again the third day or he rose again after three days: it cannot be both, or else how many times do you suppose Yeshua was resurrected if you say that both are true? AbbaLove even said in a recent post to me above when he quoted one of these passages, "In case you weren't aware Mark's Gospel is known for it's reliability with as much accuracy as possible." Well, herein above you have the accuracy of Mark in blatant contradiction according to most of the English renderings. And I am not saying Mark is wrong here but surely someone else is wrong. :)
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Alex Tennent

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Which one is correct? They cannot both be correct.

Daq you seem to think you made a big discovery that supposedly these scriptures do not harmonize. But if God is the author and anointed these writers than the problem is more with those who either translate them outside of their idiom, or try to understand them out of the context in which they were spoken. Maybe you did not read my last post (# 211), where I explain how they fit together just fine?

And you wrote:

I have already said, Friday 20 Abib, which is the same day Moshe lifted up the Rod of Elohim, in the sign of the Son of Man, and the Reed Sea was parted so that the people could Passover under the sign of the Son of Man upon dry land into the Great Shabbat Sanctuary of Rest as spoken in the Song of Moshe (end quote)

So the Messiah was not our Passover, as the scriptures say, but he was our week late Passover lamb? And then the first fruit offering that was to follow the Sabbath after the Passover sacrifice and began the 50 day counting of the Omer towards Pentecost, under your way that would also be not fulfilled. Under your concept Christ would not fulfill first fruits on the exact day.
 
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daq

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Daq you seem to think you made a big discovery that supposedly these scriptures do not harmonize. But if God is the author and anointed these writers than the problem is more with those who either translate them outside of their idiom, or try to understand them out of the context in which they were spoken. Maybe you did not read my last post (# 211), where I explain how they fit together just fine?

Ah, yes of course, you saying that something harmonizes when it clearly does not makes it all okay. My point concerned meta and how it is rendered in the passage I quoted. No one without a preconceived position to uphold would say that "the third day" and "after three days" both mean the same thing. You are simply ignoring blatant contradictions because the faulty one upholds your position and you do not desire to correct it in your doctrine. However, if you refuse to admit the error here then you will not understand when it comes to the many other places where the same word is rendered in error, (as it is once again in Acts 12:4).

So the Messiah was not our Passover, as the scriptures say, but he was our week late Passover lamb? And then the first fruit offering that was to follow the Sabbath after the Passover sacrifice and began the 50 day counting of the Omer towards Pentecost, under your way that would also be not fulfilled. Under your concept Christ would not fulfill first fruits on the exact day.

Where have I said any such thing? I have fully explained my understanding of the Passover: the whole feast is the etsem-body of one great day which contains seven days, with two feasts like "bookends" being the two holy convocations of the first day and the seventh day, which are both likewise called feasts while the entire festival is the feast of Matzot. It is you who says Yeshua ate leavened bread on the thirteenth or early evening dawn of the fourteenth and did not properly observe the Passover despite what the authors of the Gospel accounts have recorded. As for first fruits my understanding of the commencement of the Omer count is not much different from the Essene calendar which began the Omer count the morrow after the Shabbat following Passover, (which actually commenced the count in 26 Abib on their calendar, however, that day neither lines up with HaNavi Daniel, nor with the events of Golgotha). :)
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Mark 8:31 KJV
31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

Mark 10:34 KJV
34 And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.


Which one is correct? They cannot both be correct. Either Yeshua rose again the third day or he rose again after three days: it cannot be both, or else how many times do you suppose Yeshua was resurrected if you say that both are true? :)
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There's the language gap between us and ancient Greek. Plus add to that the multiple manuscripts that are copies of copies or maybe copies of an original.

Mark 8:31 ESV
And he began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes and be killed, and after three days rise again.

Mark 10:34 ESV
And they will mock him and spit on him, and flog him and kill him. And after three days he will rise.

Things like this make for a rather hard knot to untie.
 
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daq

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There's the language gap between us and ancient Greek. Plus add to that the multiple manuscripts that are copies of copies or maybe copies of an original.

Mark 8:31 ESV
And he began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes and be killed, and after three days rise again.

Mark 10:34 ESV
And they will mock him and spit on him, and flog him and kill him. And after three days he will rise.

Things like this make for a rather hard knot to untie.

As for myself I never allow meta to mean after unless there is absolutely no other choice because the base underlying meaning is with/amid, (likewise I see meta tauta as generally "with/amid these things" rather than "after these things"). When it is used like in the passages you quoted I do not see it as after but rather with/amid the latter portion of the time frame involved, (in this case three days). For instance if you wanted to say that over a period of three days something was going to occur, but not in either of the first two days, only in the third day, then you might use meta in this fashion. It is like saying "at the latter portion of three days" or "within three days, but not the first day or the middle day, rather somewhere in the last of the three days". This makes for a more difficult chronological understanding when reading things in linear fashion as the mind likes to do but, in the long run, it is well worth the study required to truly understand what you are reading. Here is another example:

Revelation 7:1 KJV (TR)
1 And after these things [μετα ταυτα] I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.


Did Yochanan see these things in chronological succession, one event after another, as the KJV renders meta tauta in the above passage? or should it be understood as rather with these things? If it is with these things then the sealing of the 144000 of the twelve tribes may even have occurred before the white horse goes forth in the vision because with these things implies that these things occur somewhere concurrently with the previous sections or chapters, (or possibly in the latter portion of the previous passage such as with the opening of the sixth seal; it is the context of scripture which will inform the reader of the correct understanding and, therefore, requires diligent study and the input of our own time and prayer). I understand this is not really on topic but it highlights what was said previously concerning meta in that I am not saying such things just to bolster a single position like the Passion week chronology, rather, this affects all of my understanding. Most will probably disagree with me for going against the grain of the manifold modern English translator-translations but it is my soul, not theirs. :)
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AbbaLove

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Hello AbbaLove,
We have to remember that these seven or eight quotes from the Messiah came about over a three year period, and were quoted by different men from different conversations all in various contexts. So with that in mind, if the conversation is focused on the first day (Thursday) when he will be ill treated, then he can say after three days (meaning after the one really bad day Thursday, then Friday, then also after Saturday), so in that conversation he is including Thursday. :

KJV Mark 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

And when the focus is on comparing himself to Jonah, maybe a year from that other conversation, he can say it differently, but still true as I have shown previously (or see my book, the Template Challenge chapter at the end of this post):

NAS Matthew 12:40 for just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the sea monster, so shall the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Then at other times, perhaps in another year and talking to another person he says "on the third day arise," very possibly comparing himself to what happened with Abraham:

NAS Genesis 22:4, 7, 8 On the third day Abraham raised his eyes and saw the place from a distance.
And Isaac spoke to Abraham his father and said, "My father!" And he said, "Here I am, my son." And he said, "Behold, the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?" 8 And Abraham said, "God will provide for Himself the lamb for the burnt offering, my son." So the two of them walked on together.

Or maybe even to another verse:

NAB Hosea 6:2 He will revive us after two days; on the third day he will raise us up, to live in his presence.

But whether or not those scriptures were in the Messiah's mind we know that he was not wrong in his statements, he meant each one in the context of when it was spoken:

NAS Matthew 17:23 and they will kill Him, and He will be raised on the third day." And they were deeply grieved.

So the verse above is simply saying he would be raised on the third day from the day he was killed, which is Sunday.

The Messiah knew he would be crucified at Passover, he obviously knew the typology involved, and that he was the true Passover lamb of God:

NAS Matthew 26:2 "You know that after two days the Passover is coming, and the Son of Man is to be delivered up for crucifixion."

He also knew that he would fulfill the First Fruit offering, which would be offered on the day after the Sabbath (i.e. Sunday, the first day) as the first fruits of the resurrection:

NAS 1 Corinthians 15:20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.

NAS 1 Corinthians 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,

He knew all these scriptures and how they would be fulfilled:

NAS Leviticus 23:10 "Speak to the sons of Israel, and say to them, 'When you enter the land which I am going to give to you and reap its harvest, then you shall bring in the sheaf of the first fruits of your harvest to the priest.

NAS Leviticus 23:11 'And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD for you to be accepted; on the day after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.

They are not going to complete this offering "on the Sabbath" for God clearly commanded it to be offered on the day after the Sabbath. And even if they decided to disobey God and do the offering on the Sabbath, God's word will not return void, he will raise the first fruits on the day after the Sabbath (very early on Sunday, the first day of the week).

So it all fits perfectly if we take all the pieces of the puzzle together.

See my book from page 376 on, and the charts there showing how all the scriptures fit:

http://themessianicfeast.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/TMF_Template-Challenge.pdf
Maybe you thought i was disputing your 5th Day (Thursday) timeline. NOT SO! Of all the timelines (4th Day, 5th Day, 6th Day) your Thursday timeline is most reasonable as also put forth in this article ... https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/crux.cfm

In the 5th day (Thursday) timeline shown below all three scriptures ... "on the third day," "three days and three nights" and "after three days" ... are realistic depending on how day/Day/DAY is calculated as either: a part (daylight) or all 12 hrs of Daylight, or a complete 24 hr DAY of Nighttime and Daylight.

Jewish daylight 1 of Crucifixion: Nisan 14 on 5th day[light] of week (3-4 hrs of daylight elapsed after death before sunset)
(12am to 6pm = 18 hrs of Thursday)
Jewish Nighttime 1 = 6th Day beginning at sundown to 6th Day sunrise (12 hrs)
Jewish Daylight 2 = 6th Day sunrise to 6th Day sunsetting (12 hrs) = DAY ONE = 12+12=24 hrs
Jewish Nighttime 2
= 7th Day beginning at sundown to 7th Day sunrise (12 hrs)
Jewish Daylight 3 = 7th Day sunrise to 7th Day sunsetting (12 hrs) = DAY TWO = 12+12=24 hrs
Jewish nighttime 3 since crucifixion:
1st Day beginning at sundown to just before 1st Day sunrise (11 hrs) When Yeshua arose: "on the third day," "three days and three nights" and "after three days" before sunrise
  • approximately 27-28 hrs of D[d]aylight and 35 hrs of N[n]ighttime = 62-63 hrs

In the "Good Friday" timeline shown below only 15-16 hrs of daylight ("on the third day") so there is no way a 6th Day Friday crucifixion satisfies "three days and three nights" or "after three days" when resurrected on Sunday during sunrise.

Jewish daylight 1 of Crucifixion: Nisan 14 on 6th day[light] of week (3-4 hrs of daylight elapsed after death before sunset)
(12am to 6pm of 6th Day = 18 hrs of Friday )
Jewish Nighttime 1 = 7th Day beginning at sundown to 7th Day sunrise (12 hrs)
Jewish Daylight 2 = 7th Day sunrise to 7th Day sunsetting (12 hrs)
DAY ONE = 12+12=24 hrs
Jewish Nighttime 2
= 1st Day beginning at sundown to 1st Day sunrise (12 hrs)
Jewish daylight 3 since crucifixion: When Yeshua arose "on the third day" during sunrise
  • approximately 15-16 hrs of d[D]aylight and 24 hrs of Nighttime = 39-40 hrs

Alex,
Had to go back and re-edit to correct typos, errors and rewrite portions ... so hopefully you are able to see that i agree with you on what has become a contentious timeline (4th Day, 5th Day or 6th Day). Gives me an inkling of just how much EFFORT you put into your Research, Writing and Editing to finally arrive at your FINAL DRAFT of ... Messianic Feast: Beyond The Ritual ... before FINALLY going to press. Even then as a former litho tradesman i suspect some minor page changes may have been made along the way. Perhaps even during the client prepress proof signoff approval before the printing of each 16 (or 32) press sheet signature. :)

There's a cautionary saying in the printing trade that goes something like this for both the tradesmen and the client ...

"You can't seem to find the time to have made sure it's correct the first time,
but you can always find the time to make sure it's correct the second time."​
 
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Norbert L

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I understand this is not really on topic but it highlights what was said previously concerning meta in that I am not saying such things just to bolster a single position like the Passion week chronology, rather, this affects all of my understanding. Most will probably disagree with me for going against the grain of the manifold modern English translator-translations but it is my soul, not theirs. :)
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I've often asked myself why isn't the chronology clearer? The timeline for the death and resurrection is a peculiar thing with respect to the existence of its' several different understandings. I don't see any one of them being articulated with such a mouth of wisdom (Luke 21:14-15) as to change the minds of all Christians who hold to one or the other incorrect ones. It's like the adage of "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink."

But when it comes to other Christians' souls, I also don't see any one of those timelines changing the minds that understand and base their lives surrounding implications of 1 John 4:2 and Romans 10:9

From what I understand the start of Romans 14 is relevant to topics like this one.
 
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Alex Tennent

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Maybe you thought i was disputing your 5th Day (Thursday) timeline. NOT SO! Of all the timelines (4th Day, 5th Day, 6th Day) your Thursday timeline is most reasonable as also put forth in this article ... https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/crux.cfm

In the 5th day (Thursday) timeline shown below all three scriptures ... "on the third day," "three days and three nights" and "after three days" ... are realistic depending on how day/Day/DAY is calculated as either: a part (daylight) or all 12 hrs of Daylight, or a complete 24 hr DAY of Nighttime and Daylight.

Jewish daylight 1 of Crucifixion: Nisan 14 on 5th day[light] of week (3-4 hrs of daylight elapsed after death before sunset)
(12am to 6pm = 18 hrs of Thursday)
Jewish Nighttime 1 = 6th Day beginning at sundown to 6th Day sunrise (12 hrs)
Jewish Daylight 2 = 6th Day sunrise to 6th Day sunsetting (12 hrs) = DAY ONE = 12+12=24 hrs
Jewish Nighttime 2
= 7th Day beginning at sundown to 7th Day sunrise (12 hrs)
Jewish Daylight 3 = 7th Day sunrise to 7th Day sunsetting (12 hrs) = DAY TWO = 12+12=24 hrs
Jewish nighttime 3 since crucifixion:
1st Day beginning at sundown to just before 1st Day sunrise (11 hrs) When Yeshua arose: "on the third day," "three days and three nights" and "after three days" before sunrise
  • approximately 27-28 hrs of D[d]aylight and 35 hrs of N[n]ighttime = 62-63 hrs

In the "Good Friday" timeline shown below only 15-16 hrs of daylight ("on the third day") so there is no way a 6th Day Friday crucifixion satisfies "three days and three nights" or "after three days" when resurrected on Sunday during sunrise.

Jewish daylight 1 of Crucifixion: Nisan 14 on 6th day[light] of week (3-4 hrs of daylight elapsed after death before sunset)
(12am to 6pm of 6th Day = 18 hrs of Friday )
Jewish Nighttime 1 = 7th Day beginning at sundown to 7th Day sunrise (12 hrs)
Jewish Daylight 2 = 7th Day sunrise to 7th Day sunsetting (12 hrs)
DAY ONE = 12+12=24 hrs
JewishNighttime 2
= 1st Day beginning at sundown to 1st Day sunrise (12 hrs)
Jewish daylight 3 since crucifixion: When Yeshua arose "on the third day" during sunrise
  • approximately 15-16 hrs of d[D]aylight and 24 hrs of Nighttime = 39-40 hrs

Alex,
Had to go back and re-edit to correct typos, errors and rewrite portions ... so hopefully you are able to see that i agree with you on what has become a contentious timeline (4th Day, 5th Day or 6th Day). Gives me an inkling of just how much EFFORT you put into your Research, Writing and Editing to finally arrive at your FINAL DRAFT of ... Messianic Feast: Beyond The Ritual ... before FINALLY going to press. Even then as a former litho tradesman i suspect some minor page changes may have been made along the way. Perhaps even during the client prepress proof signoff approval before the printing of each 16 (or 32) press sheet signature. :)

There's a cautionary saying in the printing trade that goes something like this for both the tradesmen and the client ...

"You can't seem to find the time to have made sure it's correct the first time,
but you can always find the time to make sure it's correct the second time."​
Thank you much AbbaLove,
In hindsight I guess I was thinking that you were saying that the resurrection had to happen on Saturday, and I got that from this (which may be the pre edited version?):

You wrote:
In order for Yeshua to have the breath of God revive Him "on the third day" He wouild have been alive before sunset, while it was still the 7th Day Sabbath. Is it not possible that Yeshua remained in the tomb for several hours while His wounds were healed? (end quote)

So I guess I was addressing that in my response, but thanks for your very nice words my friend! And you are sure right that the work involved with four editors over several years was way more than I thought it would be, when I started out. It's amazing how in this whole study, that so many points can cause "scriptural dislexia" and so many things had to be worded just right, because statements on so many things can be taken various ways. Especially with language change, changes in word meanings, idiom changes etc. Just like if I say the "Wednesday night" last supper, from my perspective living in the US I would say Wednesday night. But in the Jewish sense it was really Thursday eve (i.e. at sunset on Wednesday). So even trying to discuss this and communicate with others can be a trick! Then there is "Passover" which can mean so many things depending on who is saying the word. Most Christians see it as the 14th day, when the lamb was sacrificed. Many Jews (such as the Talmud) speak of it as the 15th day, the high Sabbath that enters the Feast (the feast which was called Passover, and which is a third meaning for Passover). So it definitely gets tricky to communicate and get to the bottom of things.
And thank you for your charting of the hours as you did AbbaLove.
That is a very interesting way to look at it! :)
 
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As for myself I never allow meta to mean after unless there is absolutely no other choice because the base underlying meaning is with/amid, (likewise I see meta tauta as generally "with/amid these things" rather than "after these things").
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Meta is directly related to the word "middle" actually.
 
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