What is True Messianic Breaking of Bread?

Yeshua HaDerekh

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Except it was not the preparation for the Saturday Sabbath, it was the preparation for the 15th day Sabbath of the Passover, which could fall on any day of the week, and this year it fell on a Friday. The Messiah was crucified on the day given to Moses by God's forknowledge, the 14th day of the month, so it was the preparation for the Passover (i.e. the 15th day high sabbath that begins the Festival called Passover):

John 19:14 14 Now it was the day of preparation for the Passover; it was about the sixth hour. And he said to the Jews, "Behold, your King!"

And if Friday was that day of preparation because the Sabbath was also Passover that year?
 
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Alex Tennent

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And if Friday was that day of preparation because the Sabbath was also Passover that year?
That could happen in a given year, but if that happened that year then Sunday would not be the third day since these things happened. HaDerekh I know you want Sunday to be the third day since Friday (i.e. to fulfill Luke 24:1, 18-21) but it just does not work. If you put an "X" on your Calendar on Friday, and say "these things" happened on Friday, then Saturday is the first day since "these things" happend, and Sunday is the second day since "these things" happened. But those scriptures say Sunday was the third day since these things happened, and says "these things" were the delivering up and crucifixion.
 
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Alex Tennent

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Yeshua was in the tomb from Wednesday evening (eve of Thursday) until Saturday evening (eve of Sunday) the first day.
Visionary I'm not sure I understand your position here, are you saying the Messiah was crucified on Wednesday?
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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That could happen in a given year, but if that happened that year then Sunday would not be the third day since these things happened. HaDerekh I know you want Sunday to be the third day since Friday (i.e. to fulfill Luke 24:1, 18-21) but it just does not work. If you put an "X" on your Calendar on Friday, and say "these things" happened on Friday, then Saturday is the first day since "these things" happend, and Sunday is the second day since "these things" happened. But those scriptures say Sunday was the third day since these things happened, and says "these things" were the delivering up and crucifixion.

That is what it says. It was SUNDAY when they were talking and Sunday was the 3rd day since these events occurred. You are looking at it backwards. They were counting FROM and INCLUDING Sunday. They said TODAY is the 3rd day since these events occurred. Today (Sunday) is the 3rd day. The Sabbath was the 2nd day and Friday was the day that those events occurred. The events occurred on the 1st day...not on the 0 day...
 
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Alex Tennent

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Today (Sunday) is the 3rd day
HaDerekh you are forgetting the word "since". They did not say "it is the third day" they said "it is the third day since."

Let me ask you a question, If your birthday is on Friday, what is the first day since your birthday happened, and what is the 2nd day since your birthday happened? Please answer both questions without any slight of hand! : )
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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HaDerekh you are forgetting the word "since". They did not say "it is the third day" they said "it is the third day since."

Let me ask you a question, If your birthday is on Friday, what is the first day since your birthday happened, and what is the 2nd day since your birthday happened? Please answer both questions without any slight of hand! : )

But that is not what they said. They said TODAY (Sunday) is the 3rd day since those things occurred. So if Sunday is the 3rd day, Saturday was the 2nd and Friday those events happened. You are hung up on the word "since" where we know that day (Sunday) WAS the 3rd day. Sunday the 3rd day was inclusive where in your scenario it is exclusive.
 
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daq

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Daq,

I know that some believers would disdain this idea of “day” here referring to the “the body of this day,” (and hence the whole seven day feast), but I am not among them. I know that scriptures can often have certain shades of meaning, and it’s not always just one thing. However I believe your "day" meaning the whole week explanation does not fit the scriptures here for the following reasons:

That verse in Exodus 12:14 with “this day” is clearly referring to the previous verse where God told them to place the blood of the lamb over their doorposts, and He would then “pass over” them around midnight (i.e. that midnight after the Passover sacrifice, which would be the 15th day at sunset).

NIV Exodus 12:13 The blood will be a sign for you on the houses where you are; and when I see the blood, I will pass over you. No destructive plague will touch you when I strike Egypt.


NIV Exodus 12:14 "This is a day you are to commemorate; for the generations to come you shall celebrate it as a festival to the LORD-- a lasting ordinance.


In Numbers 33:3 we again see “this day” specified as the 15th day when God passed over and they left Egypt, this day that was to be a special memorial kept as a High Sabbath throughout their generations:

NAS Numbers 33:3 And they journeyed from Rameses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month; on the next day after the Passover the sons of Israel started out boldly in the sight of all the Egyptians,

This is the same 15th day spoken of in Exodus:

NAS Exodus 12:17 'You shall also observe the Feast of Unleavened Bread, for on this very day I brought your hosts out of the land of Egypt; therefore you shall observe this day throughout your generations as a permanent ordinance.


This is why this 15th day is kept as a holy convocation (Miqra) because it was this 15th day memorial in which God saw the blood on their door posts and passed over. God wanted this day kept as a special day, unique unto itself, and kept as a Sabbath. The other days in this seven day Festival were not kept as a Sabbath, except the seventh day. So “this day” cannot refer to the whole week, otherwise every day in the week would be kept as this Sabbath memorial:


NAS Numbers 29:12 'Then on the fifteenth day of the seventh month you shall have a holy convocation; you shall do no laborious work, and you shall observe a feast to the LORD for seven days.


You are right that not many see these things as you do, and I truly appreciate when someone seeks to view things outside the box and test things, but I think you would agree that our views must always align with the scripture, for the Messiah said the scripture cannot be broken.

You then write:

For example I do I find a conflict when some of the talmidim may have supposed that Yhudas was going out to buy what might be needed for the remainder of the feast, as in John 13:29, because it was not the night of the first mikra kodesh. (end quote)

I think you meant to say “I do not find a conflict…” , and if so I do agree with you here J

Then you wrote:

Neither do I see a conflict with the Preparation Day mentioned in John 19:31 because I understand that Preparation Day as Friday, 20 Abib, the Preparation for the great high Shabbat Gadol and feast of the final day of the Passover, (Exodus 13:6). (end quote)

So Daq based on this you are saying that the Messiah was not crucified on the 14th day, but rather on the 20th day? To me it seems like there is too much typology involved to say that God did not command the 14th day Passover sacrifice to Moses because of his foreknowledge, knowing His son would be crucified this day (which was the preparation for the 15th day Sabbath):

NAS Acts 2:23 this Man, delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.

None of those things actually counter or contradict anything I have presented. Not an etsem-bone of any ordinance of the Passover shall be broken. And what I have said so far is surely only the tip of the proverbial iceberg. But now that I know you know that the seventh day is also called a feast I know that you know the Passover comes amid two days, that is, the first day and the seventh day, which are both called feasts as it is shown from Exodus 13:6 where the seventh day is also called chag-feast. But they said, "Not on the feast", (lest there be a riot among the people) for they knew that Yochanan the Immerser had proclaimed that Yeshua was the Lamb of Elohim, (and the people held Yochanan as a prophet). And there is no doubt there would have been an uproar among the people to have seen the one whom Yochanan proclaimed the Lamb of Elohim being crucified on a spit in the same day that some 250000 lambs were also being slain, (according to Josephus) so as to be roasted on a spit. But when they said, "Not on the feast", which feast day would they have meant knowing that you know there are two days that are called feasts in the feast of Passover Unleavened Bread? Matthew, Mark, and Luke all state that the custom of releasing a prisoner was "down the feast" or "against the feast", (κατα δε εορτην - kata de heorten, Matthew 27:15, Mark 15:6, and κατα εορτην in Luke 23:17). This is like a countdown, counting down through the days of the feast, but also means "against the feast", (because there are two days which are feasts and they are like bookends which enclose the overall festival; the first day and the seventh day). We know this understanding is true because John does not use "kata heorten" but rather "en tw pascha" which in this case clearly means "in the Passover", (εν τω πασχα, John 18:39). Thus, if one will fully adhere to what is written in all four Gospel accounts concerning this matter, then the custom of releasing one prisoner occurs not before the entire festival but "down the feast", and "in the Passover" which is also called Matzot-Unleavened Bread, and "against the feast", meaning against the last day of the entire festival because the seventh day of the feast is itself called a feast, in Exodus 13:6, and is the final Shabbat Gadol of Rest and Mikra Kodesh of the Passover, (The Sanctuary - Exodus 15:1-18). :)
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Alex Tennent

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But that is not what they said. They said TODAY (Sunday) is the 3rd day since those things occurred. So if Sunday is the 3rd day, Saturday was the 2nd and Friday those events happened.
I know that good people have different beliefs on how those scriptures apply (Luke 24:1, 18-21), but to me it seems clear there is only one possible option:

Thursday = the day "these things happened" (fulfills the scripture, arrest, crucifixion day)
Friday = the first day since these things happened (being the day after Thursday)
Saturday = the second day since these things happened
Sunday = the third day since these things happened

And of course if "these things" happened Wednesday, than Sunday would have been the fourth day since these things happened. This is why I developed the Template Challenge because the other options cannot fit into the Template of this Feast. When you try to put the other options on paper it will not work.
 
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Alex Tennent

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But they said, "Not on the feast", (lest there be a riot among the people) for they knew that Yochanan the Immerser had proclaimed that Yeshua was the Lamb of Elohim, (and the people held Yochanan as a prophet). And there is no doubt there would have been an uproar among the people to have seen the one whom Yochanan proclaimed the Lamb of Elohim being crucified on a spit in the same day that some 250000 lambs were also being slain, (according to Josephus) so as to be roasted on a spit. But when they said, "Not on the feast", which feast day would they have meant knowing that you know there are two days that are called feasts in the feast of Passover Unleavened Bread?

Hello there Daq,

I believe the people were very busy with their Passover sacrifices and all that was to be done on that 14th day, so most people were not worried about a few “criminals” being sentenced on this day. What the Sanhedrin was concerned with and what they commanded is that they not arrest Yeshua “in the Feast” as the Greek word "en" (in) brings out (see scripture below).

The 14th day was called the Passover in many scriptures in the Torah, but it was the 15th day that begins the seven day Festival and that is the high Sabbath in which the people would riot if Yeshua was arrested on.

The reason there was no riot is because they followed the Sanhedrin’s command and did not arrest him “in the Feast” but rather in the 14th day, which is not a Sabbath, and is not “in the Feast.”

The Greek word for “Feast/Festival” is eorty which I bolded below:

NAS Matthew 26:5 But they were saying, "Not during the festival, lest a riot occur among the people."

YLT Matthew 26:5 and they said, 'Not in the feast, that there may not be a tumult among the people.'


GNT Matthew 26:5 e;legon de,( Mh. evn th/| e`orth/|( i[na mh. qo,ruboj ge,nhtai evn tw/| law/|Å

(For some reason I see that the Greek does not copy in here, but the word that looks like e`orth above is eorty)

When you look in the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the OT, for any who may not know) you will see that this word is almost always used for Festival days. The 14th day was called Passover, but it was not called a “festival” day ( or Greek eorty, which is Chag in Hebrew).

See the scriptures below:


NAS Numbers 28:16 'Then on the fourteenth day of the first month shall be the LORD's Passover.



NAS Numbers 28:17 'And on the fifteenth day of this month shall be a feast, unleavened bread shall be eaten for seven days.


LXT Numbers 28:17 kai. th/| pentekaideka,th| h`me,ra| tou/ mhno.j tou,tou e`orth, e`pta. h`me,raj a;zuma e;desqe

(For some reason I see that the Greek does not copy in here, but the word that looks like e`orth above is eorty)

You can see that the Greek word used for this fifteenth day “feast” (in the Septuagint) is eorty, or Chag in Hebrew, and the 14th day is called Passover, not called eorty/chag.

So the Sanhedrin saying not “in the feast” (eorty) are saying not in this 15th day Sabbath, and also probably meaning not any day within this seven day Festival (eorty/chag).

I believe that you are right that John 18:39 means “in the Passover” but going by the way this word was used all through the Torah it would be no problem for this to mean in (or at) the 14th day Passover:


NAS John 18:39 "But you have a custom, that I should release someone for you at the Passover; do you wish then that I release for you the King of the Jews?"


Nothing here says: you have a custom, that I release someone in the “feast” (eorty/chag) but it rather says “in the Passover” (which almost always meant the 14th day in scripture).

Leviticus gives us the exact same example, where the 14th day is called Passover, and it is the fifteenth day that is called the “Feast” (eorty/chag):

YLT Leviticus 23:5 in the first month, on the fourteenth of the month, between the evenings, is the passover to Jehovah;


YLT Leviticus 23:6 and on the fifteenth day of this month is the feast of unleavened things to Jehovah; seven days unleavened things ye do eat;



LXT Leviticus 23:6 kai. evn th/| pentekaideka,th| h`me,ra| tou/ mhno.j tou,tou e`orth. tw/n avzu,mwn tw/| kuri,w| e`pta. h`me,raj a;zuma e;desqe
(For some reason I see that the Greek does not copy in here, but the word that looks like e`orth above is eorty)

There are several more examples I could bring, but nothing says the 14th day is the eorty/chag, it was never a Sabbath or Festival day.

Daq I do enjoy hearing how you view these things : )
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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I know that good people have different beliefs on how those scriptures apply (Luke 24:1, 18-21), but to me it seems clear there is only one possible option:

Thursday = the day "these things happened" (fulfills the scripture, arrest, crucifixion day)
Friday = the first day since these things happened (being the day after Thursday)
Saturday = the second day since these things happened
Sunday = the third day since these things happened

Can you not see that you have written 4 days?

Thursday
Friday
Saturday
Sunday
 
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daq

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Hello there Daq,

I believe the people were very busy with their Passover sacrifices and all that was to be done on that 14th day, so most people were not worried about a few “criminals” being sentenced on this day. What the Sanhedrin was concerned with and what they commanded is that they not arrest Yeshua “in the Feast” as the Greek word "en" (in) brings out (see scripture below).

The 14th day was called the Passover in many scriptures in the Torah, but it was the 15th day that begins the seven day Festival and that is the high Sabbath in which the people would riot if Yeshua was arrested on.

The reason there was no riot is because they followed the Sanhedrin’s command and did not arrest him “in the Feast” but rather in the 14th day, which is not a Sabbath, and is not “in the Feast.”

The Greek word for “Feast/Festival” is eorty which I bolded below:

NAS Matthew 26:5 But they were saying, "Not during the festival, lest a riot occur among the people."

YLT Matthew 26:5 and they said, 'Not in the feast, that there may not be a tumult among the people.'


GNT Matthew 26:5 e;legon de,( Mh. evn th/| e`orth/|( i[na mh. qo,ruboj ge,nhtai evn tw/| law/|Å

(For some reason I see that the Greek does not copy in here, but the word that looks like e`orth above is eorty)

When you look in the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the OT, for any who may not know) you will see that this word is almost always used for Festival days. The 14th day was called Passover, but it was not called a “festival” day ( or Greek eorty, which is Chag in Hebrew).

See the scriptures below:


NAS Numbers 28:16 'Then on the fourteenth day of the first month shall be the LORD's Passover.



NAS Numbers 28:17 'And on the fifteenth day of this month shall be a feast, unleavened bread shall be eaten for seven days.


LXT Numbers 28:17 kai. th/| pentekaideka,th| h`me,ra| tou/ mhno.j tou,tou e`orth, e`pta. h`me,raj a;zuma e;desqe

(For some reason I see that the Greek does not copy in here, but the word that looks like e`orth above is eorty)

You can see that the Greek word used for this fifteenth day “feast” (in the Septuagint) is eorty, or Chag in Hebrew, and the 14th day is called Passover, not called eorty/chag.

So the Sanhedrin saying not “in the feast” (eorty) are saying not in this 15th day Sabbath, and also probably meaning not any day within this seven day Festival (eorty/chag).

I believe that you are right that John 18:39 means “in the Passover” but going by the way this word was used all through the Torah it would be no problem for this to mean in (or at) the 14th day Passover:


NAS John 18:39 "But you have a custom, that I should release someone for you at the Passover; do you wish then that I release for you the King of the Jews?"


Nothing here says: you have a custom, that I release someone in the “feast” (eorty/chag) but it rather says “in the Passover” (which almost always meant the 14th day in scripture).

Leviticus gives us the exact same example, where the 14th day is called Passover, and it is the fifteenth day that is called the “Feast” (eorty/chag):

YLT Leviticus 23:5 in the first month, on the fourteenth of the month, between the evenings, is the passover to Jehovah;


YLT Leviticus 23:6 and on the fifteenth day of this month is the feast of unleavened things to Jehovah; seven days unleavened things ye do eat;



LXT Leviticus 23:6 kai. evn th/| pentekaideka,th| h`me,ra| tou/ mhno.j tou,tou e`orth. tw/n avzu,mwn tw/| kuri,w| e`pta. h`me,raj a;zuma e;desqe
(For some reason I see that the Greek does not copy in here, but the word that looks like e`orth above is eorty)

There are several more examples I could bring, but nothing says the 14th day is the eorty/chag, it was never a Sabbath or Festival day.

Daq I do enjoy hearing how you view these things : )

Hi Alex, the strictly literal meaning of kata is "down" (as in "through") and although forms of it are used for "according to" or "accordingly", and even "after" in the sense of accordingly, that is not the case here in the passages referenced. I understand you have not said this but, in this case, the point does not leave much wiggle room for what it does mean because there are other much more mundane ways to put forth the idea that is unfortunately expressed in the majority of English readings:

Matthew 27:15 TR
15 κατα δε εορτην ειωθει ο ηγεμων απολυειν ενα τω οχλω δεσμιον ον ηθελον

Mark 15:6 TR
6 κατα δε εορτην απελυεν αυτοις ενα δεσμιον ονπερ ητουντο

Luke 23:17 TR
17 αναγκην δε ειχεν απολυειν αυτοις κατα εορτην ενα


This is either "down the feast", "through the feast", "against the feast", or all three meanings combined, (and I say it is indeed all three meanings by the usage of the word). However, as stated, in John we read "in the Pascha" and this therefore clearly excludes the releasing of a prisoner on the morning of fourteen Abib because it was not "in the Passover", (because leaven was not yet even ceremonially purged from all the land until the fifth hour of this day) and because the Pascha-Passover is also called Matzot-Azumon-Unleavened Bread, (the conflation of the two terms as touched upon previously).

John 18:39 TR
39 εστι δε συνηθεια υμιν ινα ενα υμιν απολυσω εν τω πασχα βουλεσθε ουν υμιν απολυσω τον βασιλεα των ιουδαιων;


Luke makes special note of the fact that the feast of Matzot-Azumon is the same as the Pascha-Passover, as you also have mentioned, that is, what is written in Luke 22:1 how that the feast of Matzot-Azumon-Unleavened Bread is called the Pascha-Passover and is therefore the same:

Luke 22:1 TR
1 ηγγιζε δε η εορτη των αζυμων η λεγομενη πασχα


There are technically three feasts in play here concerning the terminology: the first day is a feast, the seventh day is a feast, and these two are like two bookend days at the beginning and at the end of the overall feast which I tried to differentiate in my previous comments by using the word festival. However right here in Luke 22:1 the Azumon is called heorte-feast and likewise the Pascha-Passover. Thus the entire festival is also called a feast, (heorte) and this is the third understanding of the word heorte as it is used in the context of the Passover.

In addition to the point herein above, and as mentioned previously, we see this same exact scenario played out in Peter when Herod shuts him up in the prison. The text even clearly informs us that Peter was in prison during the days of Matzot-Azumon:

Acts 12:3-4 TR
3 και ιδων οτι αρεστον εστι τοις ιουδαιοις προσεθετο συλλαβειν και πετρον ( ησαν δε ημεραι των αζυμων )
4 ον και πιασας εθετο εις φυλακην παραδους τεσσαρσι τετραδιοις στρατιωτων φυλασσειν αυτον βουλομενος μετα το πασχα αναγαγειν αυτον τω λαω


"βουλομενος μετα το πασχα αναγαγειν αυτον τω λαω"
"intending with [the end of] the Pascha to bring him out to the people"

Nothing is coincidence in matters concerning holy writ. :)
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Have any of you read this before? Obviously this reckoning was a very early tradition within Christianity.

The Jewish elders then captured Joseph, and imprisoned him, and placed a seal on the door to his cell after first posting a guard. Joseph warned the elders, "The Son of God whom you hanged upon the cross, is able to deliver me out of your hands. All your wickedness will return upon you."

Once the elders returned to the cell, the seal was still in place, but Joseph was gone. The elders later discover that Joseph had returned to Arimathea. Having a change in heart, the elders desired to have a more civil conversation with Joseph about his actions and sent a letter of apology to him by means of seven of his friends. Joseph travelled back from Arimathea to Jerusalem to meet with the elders, where they questioned him about his escape. He told them this story:

"On the day of the Preparation, about the tenth hour, you shut me in, and I remained there the whole Sabbath in full. And when midnight came, as I was standing and praying, the house where you shut me in was hung up by the four corners, and there was a flashing of light in mine eyes. And I fell to the ground trembling. Then some one lifted me up from the place where I had fallen, and poured over me an abundance of water from the head even to the feet, and put round my nostrils the odor of a wonderful ointment, and rubbed my face with the water itself, as if washing me, and kissed me, and said to me, Joseph, fear not; but open thine eyes, and see who it is that speaks to thee. And looking, I saw Jesus; and being terrified, I thought it was a phantom. And with prayer and the commandments I spoke to him, and he spoke with me. And I said to him: Art thou Rabbi Elias? And he said to me: I am not Elias. And I said: Who art thou, my Lord? And he said to me: I am Jesus, whose body thou didst beg from Pilate, and wrap in clean linen; and thou didst lay a napkin on my face, and didst lay me in thy new tomb, and roll a stone to the door of the tomb. Then I said to him that was speaking to me: Show me, Lord, where I laid thee. And he led me, and showed me the place where I laid him, and the linen which I had put on him, and the napkin which I had wrapped upon his face; and I knew that it was Jesus. And he took hold of me with his hand, and put me in the midst of my house though the gates were shut, and put me in my bed, and said to me: Peace to thee! And he kissed me, and said to me: For forty days go not out of thy house; for, lo, I go to my brethren into Galilee."
— Gospel of Nicodemus
 
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Have any of you read this before? Obviously this reckoning was a very early tradition within Christianity.

The Jewish elders then captured Joseph, and imprisoned him, and placed a seal on the door to his cell after first posting a guard. Joseph warned the elders, "The Son of God whom you hanged upon the cross, is able to deliver me out of your hands. All your wickedness will return upon you."

Once the elders returned to the cell, the seal was still in place, but Joseph was gone. The elders later discover that Joseph had returned to Arimathea. Having a change in heart, the elders desired to have a more civil conversation with Joseph about his actions and sent a letter of apology to him by means of seven of his friends. Joseph travelled back from Arimathea to Jerusalem to meet with the elders, where they questioned him about his escape. He told them this story:

"On the day of the Preparation, about the tenth hour, you shut me in, and I remained there the whole Sabbath in full. And when midnight came, as I was standing and praying, the house where you shut me in was hung up by the four corners, and there was a flashing of light in mine eyes. And I fell to the ground trembling. Then some one lifted me up from the place where I had fallen, and poured over me an abundance of water from the head even to the feet, and put round my nostrils the odor of a wonderful ointment, and rubbed my face with the water itself, as if washing me, and kissed me, and said to me, Joseph, fear not; but open thine eyes, and see who it is that speaks to thee. And looking, I saw Jesus; and being terrified, I thought it was a phantom. And with prayer and the commandments I spoke to him, and he spoke with me. And I said to him: Art thou Rabbi Elias? And he said to me: I am not Elias. And I said: Who art thou, my Lord? And he said to me: I am Jesus, whose body thou didst beg from Pilate, and wrap in clean linen; and thou didst lay a napkin on my face, and didst lay me in thy new tomb, and roll a stone to the door of the tomb. Then I said to him that was speaking to me: Show me, Lord, where I laid thee. And he led me, and showed me the place where I laid him, and the linen which I had put on him, and the napkin which I had wrapped upon his face; and I knew that it was Jesus. And he took hold of me with his hand, and put me in the midst of my house though the gates were shut, and put me in my bed, and said to me: Peace to thee! And he kissed me, and said to me: For forty days go not out of thy house; for, lo, I go to my brethren into Galilee."
— Gospel of Nicodemus

Yes, absolutely, you will probably have an easier time finding it, (if you are looking for it online) under the name of "The Acts of Pilate", (here is a link to several translations). :)
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Yes, absolutely, you will probably have an easier time finding it, (if you are looking for it online) under the name of "The Acts of Pilate", (here is a link to several translations). :)
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I have it. I was just wondering if any of you had read it...
 
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Alex Tennent

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Can you not see that you have written 4 days?

Thursday
Friday
Saturday
Sunday

HaDerekh you will never arrive at the truth using false, reverse, Roman Catholic logic.

I will ask you the question one more time that you refused to answer:

If you had a birthday party Friday afternoon, with cake and balloons and lots party things, and all "these things" happened Friday afternoon, please answer my question, what is "the first day since these things happened"?

Since I'm guessing you will not answer my question, this will be my last post to you on this subject.
 
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HaDerekh you will never arrive at the truth using false, reverse, Roman Catholic logic.

I will ask you the question one more time that you refused to answer:

If you had a birthday party Friday afternoon, with cake and balloons and lots party things, and all "these things" happened Friday afternoon, please answer my question, what is "the first day since these things happened"?

Since I'm guessing you will not answer my question, this will be my last post to you on this subject.

You can't believe the truth when you are looking at things in reverse. You are trying to use "since" in a future tense when it would be past tense since Friday already happened from the chronology of the question. You would look backwards to that day as Luke describes it, not forward from it! They said "TODAY" is the 3rd day, meaning they considered THAT day the 3rd day. Count 3 days back, INCLUDING, Sunday as the 3rd day. Pretty simple. 1000s of theologians have looked into this for 2000 years yet you refuse to believe it. BTW, it is not Roman Catholic logic...it is just logic...2000 years of it. You can write and believe whatever you want, nobody is stopping you...
 
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Alex Tennent

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Hi Alex, the strictly literal meaning of kata is "down" (as in "through") and although forms of it are used for "according to" or "accordingly", and even "after" in the sense of accordingly, that is not the case here in the passages referenced.
Hi Daq,
I am just running now but wanted to respond to your first point before I go. Normally you are correct, that "kata" can mean down, or have a meaning with a downward sense, but that is when its used in the Genitive case (see UBS definition below). But in the first two scriptures you give kata is used with the Accusative case, and therefore has the meaning of according to, or corresponding to:

Kata. preposition accusative

[UBS] kata, prep. with: (1) accusative: according to, corresponding to, with reference to, just as ( ta. kÅ tina one's case or circumstances; kÅ ta. auvta, so, in the same way; kÅ evme, my; kÅ to. auvto, together Ac 14.1; kÅ ti, how Lk 1.18); used distributively with numerals and places; in; for; for the purpose of; at, about, (of time); on, upon, along, through, to, toward; off, opposite, near, bordering on; with, by means of, because of; (2) genitive: against; down, down from; throughout; by (of oaths) ; over (of authority)

So above, when this preposition is in the Genitive, is when it means down, against, etc, but in the scriptures you gave it is in the Accusative, so it means "according to."

The third verse you mention (Luke 23:17) is not in the better manuscripts, it was considered an addition (see Metzger's committee), so it is not in my Greek text.

So the true meaning of those scriptures you quoted is that it was "according to" the custom of the feast that they released one:

NAS Matthew 27:15 Now at the feast the governor was accustomed to release for the multitude any one prisoner whom they wanted.

It did not mean they were "down into" the seven day feast. As they say today, are you down with it?! : )
 
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Alex Tennent

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You can't believe the truth when you are looking at things in reverse. You are trying to use "since" in a future tense when it would be past tense since Friday already happened from the chronology of the question. You would look backwards to that day as Luke describes it, not forward from it! They said "TODAY" is the 3rd day, meaning they considered THAT day the 3rd day. Count 3 days back, INCLUDING, Sunday as the 3rd day. Pretty simple. 1000s of theologians have looked into this for 2000 years yet you refuse to believe it. BTW, it is not Roman Catholic logic...it is just logic...2000 years of it. you can write and believe whatever you want, nobody is stopping you...
Ok, but can I still come to your birthday party Friday, because I want to figure out what the first day since it will be? : )
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Ok, but can I still come to your birthday party Friday, because I want to figure out what the first day since it will be? : )

Sure, but today is Sunday, the 3rd day since my party on Friday ;-) so I guess you missed it :-( But I saved you a piece of Matzah! :)
 
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Sure, but today is Sunday, the 3rd day since my party on Friday ;-) so I guess you missed it :-( But I saved you a piece of Matzah!

Sorry it double posted for some reason :)
 
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