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Do you have scripture for that assertion? I was taught the blessing came down through the line of Abraham just as the seed was preserved from Gen 3:15 to the birth of Christ. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you term 'bit of a shift'...Absolutely. But when we get to Abraham's sons there is a bit of a shift of who gets what. Again, a shift when Esau and Jacob are born to Isaac. Everyone is blessed but in different ways.
Matthew chapter 21Do you have scripture for that assertion? I was taught the blessing came down through the line of Abraham just as the seed was preserved from Gen 3:15 to the birth of Christ. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you term 'bit of a shift'...
For starters, who are you to tell me what morality is? According to YHWH, the Sabbath is a moral issue because when a man broke it, he killed him for it. The Sabbath has the same consequence for murder! Second, even back in the time of Israel, they could not keep Torah to perfection. They kept on getting exiled and eventually lead to the destruction of the Temple. We cannot do all the laws due to the destruction of the Temple.It doesn't, we do. So tell us is there a difference between how we treat our fellow man and how we worship days? I believe there is, one teaches us to respect our fellow man and God which becomes our moral duty and the other teaches us how to observe days, weeks and years which are ritual. Both are moral in the sense that none are immoral.
Morality never changes, rituals do change. You law thumpers cannot send your crops and animals to the storehouse as the tithe required by the Torah. Shall we go on as to the differences from what the Israelites were required to do and what the Messianic church does? It would seem that you have modified many things that have become the new rituals required by some guru not the law of the new covenant.
Torah, the commands of YHWH, especially the five books of Moshe. Happy?This thread is a sham, in that you aren't defining what the Torah is but rather just advertising it like a used car salesman does. Myself I won't debate people who use the word "Torah" because the way it is used they tend to be rather vague and unspecific. I find those who want to promote the Law upon Christians like to be vague when it comes to thing often switching meanings without adherence to proper context when it suits them.
One definition of Torah is the first 5 books of the Bible, another is instruction, yet we don't see these definitions here in the thread we just see "oooo how wonderful the Torah is". If you want to debate, using the "Torah" as a topic is like trying to use Jello to build a skyscraper.
No one obeyed Torah perfectly. If no one could obey Torah, why would YHWH say this?No one but Christ ever obeyed the law, you don't I don't the pope doesn't no one does.
1 John chapter 4
7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.
still too vague as I've seen those tout Torah and pick and choose commands they like and throw out those they don't with no regard for context.Torah, the commands of YHWH, especially the five books of Moshe. Happy?
We are not talking about "those people" we are talking about me and you. I regard YHWH's commands as Torah and instruction. That is what He calls it, so why shouldn't I?still too vague as I've seen those tout Torah and pick and choose commands they like and throw out those they don't with no regard for context.
Like I said everyone sins here's the best way to go, and it's easy, unlike the law.No one obeyed Torah perfectly. If no one could obey Torah, why would YHWH say this?
Exodus 19:5 KJV - "Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:"
Deuteronomy 11:27-28 KJV - "A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day: And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known."
Deuteronomy 13:4 KJV - "Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him."
Deuteronomy 27:10 KJV - "Thou shalt therefore obey the voice of the LORD thy God, and do his commandments and his statutes, which I command thee this day."
Deuteronomy 30:8 KJV - "And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day."
1 Samuel 12:14-15 KJV - "If ye will fear the LORD, and serve him, and obey his voice, and not rebel against the commandment of the LORD, then shall both ye and also the king that reigneth over you continue following the LORD your God: But if ye will not obey the voice of the LORD, but rebel against the commandment of the LORD, then shall the hand of the LORD be against you, as it was against your fathers."
Torah is not difficult, it is actually easy. Is observing a 24 rest period hard? How about not eating bats, dogs, cats, and other foods that are scientifically proven to be bad for you? How about celebrating holidays? Seems really difficult, doesn't it?:Like I said everyone sins here's the best way to go, and it's easy, unlike the law.
Romans chapter 4 verse 8
Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them."
1 peter chapter 4
8 Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.
Galatians chapter 2Torah is not difficult, it is actually easy. Is observing a 24 rest period hard? How about not eating bats, dogs, cats, and other foods that are scientifically proven to be bad for you? How about celebrating holidays? Seems really difficult, doesn't it?:
Deuteronomy 30:10-16 ESV - "when you obey the voice of the LORD your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes that are written in this Book of the Law, when you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. "For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?' Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?' But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it. "See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil. If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you today, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it."
Well, someone needs to set you straight. I guess since I know I thought it my duty to explain it to you. Now you know.For starters, who are you to tell me what morality is?
According to God? Where did He say it was a moral issue?According to YHWH, the Sabbath is a moral issue
God killed a man for touching the Ark. That was not part of the 10.because when a man broke it, he killed him for it. The Sabbath has the same consequence for murder!
What does this have to do with being a ritual law or a moral law?Second, even back in the time of Israel, they could not keep Torah to perfection. They kept on getting exiled and eventually lead to the destruction of the Temple. We cannot do all the laws due to the destruction of the Temple.
That isn't what God's instruction says..... if you are using the Torah you are required to become a physical part of Israel in order to do so if you aren't an Israeli then the Torah is off limits according to your standards.We are not talking about "those people" we are talking about me and you. I regard YHWH's commands as Torah and instruction. That is what He calls it, so why shouldn't I?
I read you OP. There are several things that come into play here. And that's what is behind my request. Here when some people use certain words even quoted words they have some meaning. So Please define as I asked.ThanksOnly if you read through it. If you did I will, but the scriptures are very self-explanatory.
The law is for the wicked. Once the wicked repents and believes Jesus, they aren't the wicked any more. Thus the law no longer applies.What is your need of Christ if their is no condemnation of sin? What shows us that we have sinned? Sin is the transgression of the Law.
I often pause to wonder what would happen if tithe was brought to church.It doesn't, we do. So tell us is there a difference between how we treat our fellow man and how we worship days? I believe there is, one teaches us to respect our fellow man and God which becomes our moral duty and the other teaches us how to observe days, weeks and years which are ritual. Both are moral in the sense that none are immoral.
Morality never changes, rituals do change. You law thumpers cannot send your crops and animals to the storehouse as the tithe required by the Torah. Shall we go on as to the differences from what the Israelites were required to do and what the Messianic church does? It would seem that you have modified many things that have become the new rituals required by some guru not the law of the new covenant.
That's exactly why I made my request. Essentially I was told no the OP won't comply because the OP seems to claim I didn't read it. Therefore I assume the OP thinks upon reading the OP they'll take up the OP's position as their own. I found the OP very unconvincing.This thread is a sham, in that you aren't defining what the Torah is but rather just advertising it like a used car salesman does. Myself I won't debate people who use the word "Torah" because the way it is used they tend to be rather vague and unspecific. I find those who want to promote the Law upon Christians like to be vague when it comes to thing often switching meanings without adherence to proper context when it suits them.
One definition of Torah is the first 5 books of the Bible, another is instruction, yet we don't see these definitions here in the thread we just see "oooo how wonderful the Torah is". If you want to debate, using the "Torah" as a topic is like trying to use Jello to build a skyscraper.
Yeah I tend to ignore posts that rely on the word Torah because it is so ambiguous that they can use it to mask all sorts of vague doctrine and in a debate it is like a greased pig you can grab onto it and get a good bite.That's exactly why I made my request. Essentially I was told no the OP won't comply because the OP seems to claim I didn't read it. Therefore I assume the OP thinks upon reading the OP they'll take up the OP's position as their own. I found the OP very unconvincing.
bugkiller
So let's melt that grease. I kinda like squeal-no-more grease on my taters and in my beans.Yeah I tend to ignore posts that rely on the word Torah because it is so ambiguous that they can use it to mask all sorts of vague doctrine and in a debate it is like a greased pig you can grab onto it and get a good bite.
why bother? their dietary restrictions won't have them even touching the subject that they startSo let's melt that grease. I kinda like squeal-no-more grease on my taters and in my beans.
bugkiller
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