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What is this necessary “Wedding Garment”?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Minister Monardo, Nov 1, 2020.

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  1. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

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    Open Theism in a nutshell.
     
  2. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I believe that a believer is to confess of their secret faults, as well.

    “Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults.” (Psalms 19:12).

    We know that the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin (John 16:8-9).
    How much more do you think the Spirit will do for the truly faithful believer who is seeking to die to their self and serve God in all they do?

    If you believe John is saying believers will always sin in 1 John 1:8, then this would contradict his words in 1 John 2:1 to “sin not” and his words in 1 John 2:4 that the person who says they know the Lord and yet they do not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in them. Is somebody who always sins as per 1 John 1:8 keeping His commandments? No. So you are reading 1 John 1:8 out of context to what John is saying. John is clearly referring to the gnostic belief in 1 John 1:8 whereby a person will falsely think sin does not even exist or it is an illusion. 1 John 1:10 confirms this fact because it talks about a denial of a person never having sinned in their past life. We both agree that we both sinned in our past life, so 1 John 1:8 is a gnostic belief.

    Your problem also is not dealing with what 1 John 1:9 says. It says if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. But do you truly believe that confessing sin relates to salvation? I believe it does because the forgiveness of the Lord is dealing with salvation throughout the whole of the Bible. Many today want me to believe that I can be out of fellowship with God and be unforgiven and yet still saved (Which is an oxymoron).

    Sorry. No offense, but if this is the case, then you don't believe the words in Scripture on the testimony of Job, Zacharias, Elisabeth, and the 144,000. You don't believe 2 Corinthians 7:1, Galatians 5:24, and 1 Peter 4:1-2, etc.

    1 Corinthians 15:50 does not specifically say that you are living unrighteously as to the reason why one's is corruptible. It is referring to the BODY, and not your currrent acts of sin. This body was condemned since birth by the sin of Adam and the sin that we committed in our past life before coming to Christ. We live in a sin fallen world, and our bodies are tainted by sin. It does not mean that one cannot crucify the affections of and lusts. In fact, try reading Galatians 5:24 sometime.

    You see what you want to see. While John and Paul admitted that believers could sin on occasion, they also told them to stop sinning (i.e. mortal sin) by the use of other words. Paul said the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God and he listed various sins attached to that warning (Galatians 5:19-21). Paul told us that if we live after the flesh (sin), we will die, but if we put to death the misdeeds of the body, we shall live (live eternally) (Romans 8:13). In 2 Corinthians 7:1, it says let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God. However, you don't believe that. The apostle John tells us to “sin not.” (1 John 2:1). Yet, you believe that such instruction by John is impossible.

    Side Note: For the topic of this conversation I am referring to mortal sin and not non-mortal sin. I say this because Sinless Perfection (Which I believe is dealing with putting away non-mortal sin) is another topic that is not allowed in this section of the forums.

    Then you are ripping this verse out of context to fit a belief you find more comforting.
    Verses 12-13 makes it clear that he was referring to his old life. Verse 13 makes it clear that he was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, etc.

    12 “And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
    13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did itignorantly in unbelief.
    14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
    15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.” (1 Timothy 1:15).

    In fact, Jesus came to save sinners. Save them from what? He said he was a physician. Physicians are to heal. So if they are not healed of their sinful condition, then He would not be a very good doctor. For sin is the sickeness. For you fail to understand that the reason Christ died for us is so as to cleanse us with the washing of the water of the Word in order to present to Himself a church that is holy, and without spot or blemish (See: Ephesians 5:25-27). Jesus called sinners to repentance. Jesus said repent or perish.

    But it's simply not the way of the Bible. It's just a measuring stick of doing less evil. The problem is that you believe that God can agree with a believer's sin. For in your view: God will save them despite what evil they do. But God cannot agree with a person's thinking in doing evil. God is holy and just, and good.

    You can only be condemned by what the Bible specifically condemns. Not sure if you ever remember reading John 12:48 before, but it basically says that if we do not receive Christ's words, those very words will judge us on the last day. What words can judge us? Words like Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, etc.

    As for your talk of being lukewarm: This is actually a point for Conditional Salvation and not Unconditional Salvation or Once Saved Always Saved. The warnings in Revelation were given to these churches so that they might repent. If they were Once Saved Always Saved, then there would be no need to warn these churches to repent who were not right with God.

    First, Paul says be not deceived. The unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God (See: 1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

    Second, it says to cast out this fornicating believer in whom God will judge outside of the church body.
    Note: If they are not in the church body, that means they are no longer a part of the body of Christ and hence, they are not saved. For the context says:

    11 “But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
    12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
    13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.” (1 Corinthians 5:11-13).​

    They are not to have fellowship with the fornicating believer. They are to put away this wicked person out from among them. God judges those who are outside the body.

    Three, “may be saved" does NOT mean "is saved now."

    “To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.” (1 Corinthians 5:5).

    The destruction of the flesh by Satan is to get the believer to repent so that they can be saved again, and so that they might endure to the end in their salvation till death (Which then leads to the day of the Lord Jesus Christ and his final salvation of our souls).
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2020
  3. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Thanks for the false accusation. I do not believe in Open Theism. Open Theism says that God cannot know certain things. I don't beleve that way. Such a teaching is clearly false.
     
  4. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

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    ok thanks for clarifying your position.
     
  5. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I already gave you an answer to this.
     
  6. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

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    I was not asking you.
     
  7. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Giving an answer means to give a reply or a response to something you said. That does not mean you had to ask a question.

    For example: Rick answered the phone call. This does not mean that every time Rick's phone rings, it is actually asking him a question. It's just his phone ringing letting him know that somebody is trying to reach him.

    Stop getting caught up on the little things that do not matter.
    You have yet to deal with the Scriptures I put forth to you before in the other thread (Which is the more important matter here).
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2020
  8. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Watching and Praying Always

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    There's 2 ways I look at this and I'm not sure which way is right.
    First I do look at the prodigal son parable and while normally a parable is not a good thing to get a doctrine from, what Jesus was illustrating with the parable is a concept that I've experienced in my own life and that I believe is a doctrine we can believe. That the son never actually stopped being the son even when he'd departed, the father didn't disown him, in fact the father waited for and looked for the son to return, always knowing that one day his son WOULD return. I think that anyone who is truly saved does not lose their salvation when they go prodigal because from my experience you get chastened a lot, showing that God is still dealing with you as a son and trying to correct you and bring you back home. I think those who have truly been adopted will, without fail, come home to their Father, because God is sovereign and knows what He needs to do to bring you home, I don't think He'd let you die in a season of disobedience and backsliding if you have that relationship, I think He'll bring you back to faith.
    The other way is as I mentioned, 1 Corinthians 5. How can you, finding a brother sinning, and being unrepentent, kick them out of the church, and say "Satan this one is yours do with him as you please" Satan kills his body, and it's for the salvation of his soul? I want to lean toward that before the guy actually dies he'll be led to repent of his sin and that's how his soul maintains salvation, but that's not specified.
    As far as continuing to sin, yeah, that's going to happen, we're not perfect. Like I said there are 2 ways you will go if you decide that you're going to be in perfect obedience to the Lord in the flesh and you fail. You'll either begin to lose faith and doubt everything because it's not working no matter how hard you try no matter how much you depend on God to sanctify you, you're going to fail because we're still flesh. Paul struggled with pride as a sin. Paul was an apostle, hand picked by Jesus Himself, performing miracles, even able to see into heaven and receive direct revelation so that he could write half about half of the new testament. When God uses you in such a big way like that, it's pretty easy to see someone feeling special from all that treatment and taking pride in it. God afflicted him because Paul struggled with the sin of pride, 2 Corinthians 12:7. That's chastening from the Lord.
    So, either you lose heart and faith because you're still finding yourself sinning even when you don't want to and are trying not to... or, you stop seeing your sins as sins, and justify them as just "mistakes"
    Neither is healthy.

    I agree with the basic concept that both Sovereignty and Free Will are both at work simultaneously, and the main thing is God foreknew who would choose Him freely, and to "keep" them He knows what He must do to bring them back to choosing Him if they go astray.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2020
  9. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Watching and Praying Always

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    Mostly I'm just saying that you maintain the relationship, you know you will still sin, and you will hate it and yourself when you do, and you will confess to the Father, ask for forgiveness, and endure the stripes the Lord sees fit to correct you with.
    I find Psalms 6, 38, 51, and 116 exhibit that, showing repentance for sin, pleading for the mercy of God, and rejoicing in the mercy of God.
    You have to confess and seek forgiveness, and there will probably be chastisement, but that relationship is not cut off.
    You fall down 7 times? You get back up 7 times and ask forgiveness and try again.
    You fall down 70 times 7 times? You get back up 70 times 7 times, and if Jesus said we're to forgive that many times (and I don't think He meant for us to actually keep a tally), God surely lives up to and exceeds His own standards.
    Not sinning is still the goal.
    But praise Jesus that He's a better savior than you are a sinner.
     
  10. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    @Jamdoc

    I would encourage you to watch this video.

     
  11. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Watching and Praying Always

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    I can say with some certainty that you, and that preacher, have both sinned within this last week, if not today.
     
  12. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Only the Lord knows my heart and life. Besides, it's not about the preacher or myself. One person's life is not the standard or measuring stick. The Word of God is. I will have to stand before the Lord and give account to Him just as you will. It's what the Word of God says. I am not above the Word anymore than you are. It's a biblical fact that if we do not obey the words of Jesus, there is no eternal life. For starters, just try reading Matthew 7:26-27, and Acts of the Apostles 3:23.
     
  13. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Watching and Praying Always

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    I'm saying that we all still sin, we are not perfect, nobody is, even after being saved.

    .. and you believe you never sin.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2020
  14. chad kincham

    chad kincham Well-Known Member

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    Here’s more on that topic:

    Pure white raiment (robes) are what the righteous saints are given, and are part of their wedding attire.


    Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.


    Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.


    Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.


    Believers get white robes, but can defile their robes - if they defile their robes, their names are blotted out of the book of life.


    Rev 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.


    Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.


    Jesus warned some churches in Revelation that many of them had soiled their robes, and some had lost them completely, and were naked.


    Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:


    Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.


    The man in Matthew 22 therefore had defiled his white raiment (which are the righteousness of saints) and was thrown out of the wedding of the lamb, and into hell as a lost sinner.


    What’s sad is those in Revelation 3:17-18 were naked, but thought they were clothed.


    They did something to defile their garments, that they mistakenly thought was ok with God.


    In other words, they believed they could live a sinful life, and remain in Christ.


    I believe they were deceived by OSAS into thinking grace was a license to sin, with no eternal consequences.
     
  15. chad kincham

    chad kincham Well-Known Member

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  16. chad kincham

    chad kincham Well-Known Member

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    He had no white wedding clothing, that is the righteousness of saints.

    This explains:

    Pure white raiment (robes) are what the righteous saints are given, and are part of their wedding attire.


    Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.


    Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.


    Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.


    Believers get white robes, but can defile their robes - if they defile their robes, their names are blotted out of the book of life.


    Rev 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.


    Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.


    Jesus warned some churches in Revelation that many of them had soiled their robes, and some had lost them completely, and were naked.


    Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:


    Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.


    The man in Matthew 22 therefore had defiled his white raiment (which are the righteousness of saints) and was thrown out of the wedding of the lamb, and into hell as a lost sinner.


    What’s sad is those in Revelation 3:17-18 were naked, but thought they were clothed.


    They did something to defile their garments, that they mistakenly thought was ok with God.


    In other words, they believed they could live a sinful life, and remain in Christ.


    I believe they were deceived by OSAS into thinking grace was a license to sin, with no eternal consequences.
     
  17. chad kincham

    chad kincham Well-Known Member

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    The fact is that a believer occasionally sins, and has to repent when the Holy Spirit convicts them they need to - but can’t continually sin without repentance and remain in Christ.
     
  18. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Watching and Praying Always

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    Of course.
    Holiness doctrine proponents however don't believe they ever sin. They see themselves as being in perfect obedience once they're saved.
     
  19. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If you and your wife are having some serious marital problems and you separate for a time while you both take some marriage counseling sessions, you stop being husband to her?

    Do you stop being her husband if she raises her voice in anger to you (most certainly a sin against you) until which time she begs your forgiveness and you forgive her?

    Or do you only stop being her husband when you draw up the papers and go before the judge for divorce?

    The problem is, your God isn't faithful... he's constantly divorcing His wife, multiple times a day if need be, instead of patiently working through any issues in the marriage.

    God isn't like that... He is faithful, He is patient with us even when we would think it's undeserved... He is far more patient than we are. And yes, sometimes He allows for a separation without divorcing us.

    We are saved by His righteousness, not our own. Any filth on the wedding garment comes from trying to add what God calls your filthy rags, aka your righteousness, onto what is pristine - the perfect work of Christ.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2020
  20. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Watching and Praying Always

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    The book of Hosea... what a pointed message.
     
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