What is the Wine of Wrath of יהוה ?

[Laureate]

Upon whom is the Wine of Yah’s Wrath Poured out upon? Who are they that Drink of it? and what other alternative is there, (if any)?

 

[Laureate]

How should one Drink this Wine? Eagerly? Acquiescenly?

 

[Laureate]

What was the Righteousness of Daniel and his three friends when they found themselves in this predicament?

 

[The Righterzpen]

Revelation 14:19-20 talks about the "winepress of the wrath of God".
Revelation 19:15 also makes a reference to this.

Those who are (assuming essentially forced) to drink the "wine" are under condemnation.

 

[Laureate]

Revelation 14:19-20 talks about the "winepress of the wrath of God".
Revelation 19:15 also makes a reference to this.

Those who are (assuming essentially forced) to drink the "wine" are under condemnation.

Excellent contribution.

When Yeshuah said, we must Eat his Flesh and Drink his Blood, he did so in a context which likened Eating his בשר Flesh unto us Coming to his בשר Gospel, and likened Drinking his דמם Blood unto us Believing (Trusting and Relying) on his דמם (Divine) Plan.

Thus keeping in line with Yeshua’s logic, those who do Drink of the Wine of Wrath, are also those who are Trusting and Relying on the Wine of Wrath.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

I'm inclined to think wine is not literally wine but has more to do with the seven bowls of wrath which are poured out on unbelievers.

Of course, I claim no expertise in the Book of Revelation. It's a deeply symbolic book and takes years of study to even get a clue about it and I have not really studied it that much.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

There is also the idea that the Great Babylon is "drunk with wine and whoring about" which is their downfall.

But again, I do not claim to be an expert. Eschatology is not my specialty.

 

[Laureate]

I'm inclined to think wine is not literally wine but has more to do with the seven bowls of wrath which are poured out on unbelievers.

Of course, I claim no expertise in the Book of Revelation. It's a deeply symbolic book and takes years of study to even get a clue about it and I have not really studied it that much.

This is also an excellent contribution.

Wine pertains to the Fruit of the Vine, whom Yeshuah (aka the Word of Alohym) declared to be.

However this suggests that the Seven Bowls are the Seven Congregations pouring out their Fruit [Understanding and Works/Faith] upon non believers.

 

[honey badger]

For thus saith the LORD; Behold, they whose judgment was not to drink of the cup have assuredly drunken;

 

[Laureate]

Amos 2:8 ….they Drink the Wine of the Condemned in the House of their Aloah.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Thus keeping in line with Yeshua’s logic, those who do Drink of the Wine of Wrath, are also those who are Trusting and Relying on the Wine of Wrath.

Your answer doesn't make a whole lot of sense here.

To be under the condemnation of God is to be cast into the Lake of Fire at the end of time to pay for one's own sin. (No one gets out of the Lake of Fire.) Thus the necessity for the Redeemer. How would anyone be "relying on the wine of wrath"? They are never going to pay for their own sin. And certainly in the Lake of Fire they'd know that.

 

[Laureate]

Your answer doesn't make a whole lot of sense here.

To be under the condemnation of God is to be cast into the Lake of Fire at the end of time to pay for one's own sin. (No one gets out of the Lake of Fire.) Thus the necessity for the Redeemer. How would anyone be "relying on the wine of wrath"? They are never going to pay for their own sin. And certainly in the Lake of Fire they'd know that.

Condemnation is an unsavory sentencing, which occurs 24/7, whereas the Lake of Fire [Volcanic Caldera] is a reference to the final sentencing of a global dispensation, I likewise do not understand your logic here.

The Wine of Wrath is taken out of the Manual/Hand of the Jews, and placed in the Manual/Hand of those who paved their roads with the bodies of the Jews, so that they may עבר Cross over, as in עבר Convert to the עברי Hebrew Faith, aka The Way.

The Sin of the Jews was engraved with an iron pen, esp., when they fixed/codified the Masoretic text, which grossly limits one’s ability to read and comprehend the greater content of the Torah.

In essence the Wine of Wrath is a poor translation of the Torah, that is what many are Trusting and Relying on, and that is what Justifies the Wrath of Alohym on the matter.

It is the Repairers of the Breach which rectify this problematic area.

 

[Laureate]

There is also the idea that the Great Babylon is "drunk with wine and whoring about" which is their downfall.

But again, I do not claim to be an expert. Eschatology is not my specialty.

The Hebrew word for Prostitute and Mercenary is Tannan, the prevailing notion pertains to those who do what they do for Lucre/$$$ the same Hebrew word translates Dragon/Whale.

Hence the (monetary) Mark of the Beast [66(6) the last 6 is translated from the Greek letter Stigma, which is now obsolete, 66 is a ref., to the 66 books of the Christian bible], wherefore שבר Buying and Selling, also renders ‘Translate’, thus Yeshua שבר Broke bread, saying this is my בשר Body, as in, this is my בשר Gospel.

 

[Laureate]

For thus saith the LORD; Behold, they whose judgment was not to drink of the cup have assuredly drunken;

Yup, the first Son who Decided to neither Drink of the Torah nor Work in the Vineyard ended up Drinking/Trusting and Relying on the Torah, and performing the Work abandoned by the second Son.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Condemnation is an unsavory sentencing, which occurs 24/7, whereas the Lake of Fire [Volcanic Caldera] is a reference to the final sentencing of a global dispensation, I likewise do not understand your logic here.

The Wine of Wrath is taken out of the Manual/Hand of the Jews, and placed in the Manual/Hand of those who paved their roads with the bodies of the Jews, so that they may עבר Cross over, as in עבר Convert to the עברי Hebrew Faith, aka The Way.

The Sin of the Jews was engraved with an iron pen, esp., when they fixed/codified the Masoretic text, which grossly limits one’s ability to read and comprehend the greater content of the Torah.

In essence the Wine of Wrath is a poor translation of the Torah, that is what many are Trusting and Relying on, and that is what Justifies the Wrath of Alohym on the matter.

It is the Repairers of the Breach which rectify this problematic area.

So, if I'm understanding you correctly? What you are referring to as "wine of wrath" is more akin to what average protestant evangelicals would call "process of sanctification"? (It's a "temporary in this life thing" "refining fire" idea; not an "eternal state of condemnation".)

I'm looking at it just strictly what I find in Bible texts; whereas your understanding is coming out of a specific tradition. (Thus I think is where the confusion we each have of the other's interpretation is coming from. I'm not particularly familiar with your specific tradition and you're probably not familiar with how I understand Bible texts to define the meanings of other Bible texts.)

I am familiar with the fact that the Masoretic text is different than the "Paleo-Hebrew" of the Dead Sea Scrolls. And that the Septuagint tracks more to the "paleo-Hebrew" than it tracks to the Masoretic text.

When Jerome did the translation for the Latin Vulgate; the eastern church told him to use the Septuagint and not the Masoretic text because they'd stated the Masoretic text was corrupted. Jerome went with the Masoretic text though and consequently all subsequent Bible translations out of the Hebrew came from the Masoretic text. All the previous (known) copies to the Masoretic text had been destroyed. And we didn't know what those previous texts were until he Dead Sea Scrolls were found.

Which of course this affects peoples' understanding / interpretation of "inerrancy of God's word". It becomes a complicated subject when all these historical details get piled in there.

So I'm assuming your position on the Masoretic text is that it's corrupt? (Which I agree that it certainly is different than the Dead Sea Scrolls Hebrew text.)

Do you have a copy of the Dead Sea Scrolls text? I've heard the Book of Daniel is quite different. I'd ordered a copy of the Dead Sea Scrolls Hebrew text; but it seems because printing of it is in such sparse demand (appears those requesting it are pretty much college linguistics students = it being printed in small batches). I ordered it last year and it still hasn't shipped. Not sure who's doing the printing; but assuming it's coming either from Israel or a university print house in Europe?

 

[The Righterzpen]

For thus saith the LORD; Behold, they whose judgment was not to drink of the cup have assuredly drunken;

What passage is this? Is this a Bible passage?

 

[Laureate]

What passage is this? Is this a Bible passage?

Yeremiyahu (Jeremiah) 49:12

 

[The Righterzpen]

Yeremiyahu (Jeremiah) 49:12

Thanks. I'll have to take a closer look at that passage.

At first contextual glance; those who steal from provisions made to the poor will not escape judgement. (Jeremiah 49:9 talks about gleaning grapes. They were told to leave some of the harvest in the fields for the poor (fatherless and widows).) Wether the thief is the field's "owner"; (person obligated to care for his kinfolk), or thieves that come in, they will reap judgment for causing further hardship to the poor (widows and fatherless).

This jives with Matthew 23:14.

 

[Laureate]

So, if I'm understanding you correctly? What you are referring to as "wine of wrath" is more akin to what average protestant evangelicals would call "process of sanctification"? (It's a "temporary in this life thing" "refining fire" idea; not an "eternal state of condemnation".)

I'm looking at it just strictly what I find in Bible texts; whereas your understanding is coming out of a specific tradition. (Thus I think is where the confusion we each have of the other's interpretation is coming from. I'm not particularly familiar with your specific tradition and you're probably not familiar with how I understand Bible texts to define the meanings of other Bible texts.)

I am familiar with the fact that the Masoretic text is different than the "Paleo-Hebrew" of the Dead Sea Scrolls. And that the Septuagint tracks more to the "paleo-Hebrew" than it tracks to the Masoretic text.

When Jerome did the translation for the Latin Vulgate; the eastern church told him to use the Septuagint and not the Masoretic text because they'd stated the Masoretic text was corrupted. Jerome went with the Masoretic text though and consequently all subsequent Bible translations out of the Hebrew came from the Masoretic text. All the previous (known) copies to the Masoretic text had been destroyed. And we didn't know what those previous texts were until he Dead Sea Scrolls were found.

Which of course this affects peoples' understanding / interpretation of "inerrancy of God's word". It becomes a complicated subject when all these historical details get piled in there.

So I'm assuming your position on the Masoretic text is that it's corrupt? (Which I agree that it certainly is different than the Dead Sea Scrolls Hebrew text.)

Do you have a copy of the Dead Sea Scrolls text? I've heard the Book of Daniel is quite different. I'd ordered a copy of the Dead Sea Scrolls Hebrew text; but it seems because printing of it is in such sparse demand (appears those requesting it are pretty much college linguistics students = it being printed in small batches). I ordered it last year and it still hasn't shipped. Not sure who's doing the printing; but assuming it's coming either from Israel or a university print house in Europe?

When Rûakh H’Kôdesh called me to my office it was also placed in my heart to not lean upon the interpretations or doctrines of men, wherefore this is the only tradition in my repertoire that I am aware of, to Lean not upon the understanding or teachings of men.

We have two faithful witnesses the Word of Alohym and Rûakh H’Kôdesh who guides and teaches those who have an ear to hear what the Spirit says as it pertains to the Word of Alohym, just as Yeshuah promised.

I believe you are attempting to do as you say, for so should we all adhere strictly to the Torah and the Testimonies of Yeshuah’ s Disciples, yet this can only be achieved after one has a fine (triangulatable) grasp of the content received from them.

Let all דברים Words/Matters/Things be Established by the פן Mouth/Angularity of two or three (presumably reliable and pertinent) Witnesses/Testimonies.

Do not Add nor Diminish anything from the received Torah, in this context ‘Diminish’ includes dot not dismiss or discount any of the (triangulatable) implications of the Torah, I.e., the things that have transpired, that is what shall transpire, and that which is being performed, is that which shall be performed, wherefore there is nothing new under the Sun…, this passage implies that History (itself) is Prophecy.

To say, History is not prophecy, is a Diminishing of both Deuteronomy 4:2 and Ecclesiastes 1:9.

In Revelations 1:8 El Shadai declares to be the Aleph Û Tau, with a definitive emphasis on his name יהוה, saying, I am Aleph Û Tau, says יהוה Yahuah, [י] That Which [הוה] is, [י] That Which [הוה] was, and [י] That Which [הוה] is to come…implying that [י] He [הוה] Is הוהי (Haw’va î) Existence itself, and that History is His Story.

Because the Sovereign Author of Heaven and Earth declares to be All Things, I do not believe in an Eternal state of Condemnation, for such would indicate that parts of his own being would be Eternally Condemned, I do however believe there is a Perpetual state of Condemnation, from which one can be Saved, or otherwise have their soul Recycled.

Though the matter concerning the Masorah is quite Convoluted, I believe I can bring some scriptural clarity to the issue.

Surely you know that both the New and Old testaments were recorded in the tongues of the (average) Common man, but are you aware that the (average) Common man throughout the entire biblical dispensation was Uneducated, and both Spoke and Wrote in the Language of a Pidgin Tongue, the Tongue of the (average) Uneducated man?

Moshé was raised in a house of Royalty, and as such, he was nurtured among those which did receive an Education, wherefore he was placed in a position to Teach those who were Uneducated, as were all the Elders admonished [in Deuteronomy 4] to Teach their Children and Grandchildren the things which they Witnessed of Yahuah, this Teaching came to be known as the Oral Law (or Tradition).

You know how a child learns how to Speak and Scribble long before they acquire apt Reading and Writing skills, well, the Oral (version of the) Law (Torah) did not require one to have an Education in Reading and Writing to learn, yet it proved to be an invaluable tool in the literary education of those which did learn how to Read and Write, just as our learning how to sing the alphabet song helped us to develop a memory of the letters and their sequence, which in turn made it much easier to recognize the written alphabet with distinction.

After 40 years in the wilderness Moshé informed the children of Ishrael [Deuteronomy 29:4] that, Yahuah had not (yet) given them a Heart to Perceive, nor Eyes to See nor Ears to Comprehend up unto that point of time, meaning they were quite ignorant concerning everything which they had Seen and Heard. (to be continued)

 

[The Righterzpen]

When Rûakh H’Kôdesh called me to my office it was also placed in my heart to not lean upon the interpretations or doctrines of men, wherefore this is the only tradition in my repertoire that I am aware of, to Lean not upon the understanding or teachings of men.

We have two faithful witnesses the Word of Alohym and Rûakh H’Kôdesh who guides and teaches those who have an ear to hear what the Spirit says as it pertains to the Word of Alohym, just as Yeshuah promised.

I believe you are attempting to do as you say, for so should we all adhere strictly to the Torah and the Testimonies of Yeshuah’ s Disciples, yet this can only be achieved after one has a fine (triangulatable) grasp of the content received from them.

Let all דברים Words/Matters/Things be Established by the פן Mouth/Angularity of two or three (presumably reliable and pertinent) Witnesses/Testimonies.

Do not Add nor Diminish anything from the received Torah, in this context ‘Diminish’ includes dot not dismiss or discount any of the (triangulatable) implications of the Torah, I.e., the things that have transpired, that is what shall transpire, and that which is being performed, is that which shall be performed, wherefore there is nothing new under the Sun…, this passage implies that History (itself) is Prophecy.

To say, History is not prophecy, is a Diminishing of both Deuteronomy 4:2 and Ecclesiastes 1:9.

In Revelations 1:8 El Shadai declares to be the Aleph Û Tau, with a definitive emphasis on his name יהוה, saying, I am Aleph Û Tau, says יהוה Yahuah, [י] That Which [הוה] is, [י] That Which [הוה] was, and [י] That Which [הוה] is to come…implying that [י] He [הוה] Is הוהי (Haw’va î) Existence itself, and that History is His Story.

Because the Sovereign Author of Heaven and Earth declares to be All Things, I do not believe in an Eternal state of Condemnation, for such would indicate that parts of his own being would be Eternally Condemned, I do however believe there is a Perpetual state of Condemnation, from which one can be Saved, or otherwise have their soul Recycled.

Though the matter concerning the Masorah is quite Convoluted, I believe I can bring some scriptural clarity to the issue.

Surely you know that both the New and Old testaments were recorded in the tongues of the (average) Common man, but are you aware that the (average) Common man throughout the entire biblical dispensation was Uneducated, and both Spoke and Wrote in the Language of a Pidgin Tongue, the Tongue of the (average) Uneducated man?

Moshé was raised in a house of Royalty, and as such, he was nurtured among those which did receive an Education, wherefore he was placed in a position to Teach those who were Uneducated, as were all the Elders admonished [in Deuteronomy 4] to Teach their Children and Grandchildren the things which they Witnessed of Yahuah, this Teaching came to be known as the Oral Law (or Tradition).

You know how a child learns how to Speak and Scribble long before they acquire apt Reading and Writing skills, well, the Oral (version of the) Law (Torah) did not require one to have an Education in Reading and Writing to learn, yet it proved to be an invaluable tool in the literary education of those which did learn how to Read and Write, just as our learning how to sing the alphabet song helped us to develop a memory of the letters and their sequence, which in turn made it much easier to recognize the written alphabet with distinction.

After 40 years in the wilderness Moshé informed the children of Ishrael [Deuteronomy 29:4] that, Yahuah had not (yet) given them a Heart to Perceive, nor Eyes to See nor Ears to Comprehend up unto that point of time, meaning they were quite ignorant concerning everything which they had Seen and Heard. (to be continued)

Well, you have beliefs that are different than mine; that's for sure.

Are you saying that you believe the Masoretic text is the "more refined version" of the Dead Sea scrolls Hebrew? (That's the impression I get by your explanation of Moses's secular education and the development of written language.)

Personally, I'm not sure I'd say that; although I do agree that reason the Masoretic text exists is directed within the confines of the sovereignty of God. Because He's omniscient and omnipotent; no change in anything happens that He's not capable of "working in real time" to accomplish His purposes. Despite clearly there are entities that do things contrary to God's desires and intentions.

And the fact that He is omniscient, omnipotent and even omnipresent is the reason He doesn't need to micromanage the cosmos. He can get His purposes accomplished despite the actions (intentional or not) of the rest of us. Thus the justification God has to hold sentient beings accountable for the actions of their independent volitions, without being the author of sin. This is why there's no such thing as (to use another "doctrinal term") "double predestination".