What is the truth?

SPF

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But further in you neglect the point of existence. I'm not saying if the weather changes I have a separate reality. In your example my existence has not changed. I'm saying existence itself is no longer the same with respect to humankind. When we speak of God alone, He is the same, yesterday, today and forever and there is no shadow of turning. The same is not true for God's creation. If our existence is altered then the component of the equation has changed with respect to reality outcome. It is no longer the same reality.

If you think I neglected the point of existence, you may be correct because I'm not talking about the point of existence, I'm talking about the definition of the term reality and how we properly use it. That's the extent of my involvement in this discussion. I completely agree with you that God is immutable and that we are not. Our existence is "altered" every day, every hour, every minute. There are times in our life where our existence is altered dramatically, and times where our existence is altered imperceptibly. For example, in reality, I am now older than I was when I made my first contribution to this thread. My existence has changed.

I think the problem is that you keep using the term reality as if it is a thing. Reality is not a thing. It was not created by God, though certainly God has the power to control what is reality due to omnipotence.

Reality is only a description of what is. Whatever is, is reality.

We're not only speaking of experience we are speaking of existence and the quality of their state of existence.

What does this have to do with our understanding of the term "reality" and its proper usage? Nothing. Right now the reality I live in has me here at my office, living on earth, typing this reply. My belief is that after Christ returns, in reality I will be living here on earth with a redeemed body in the presence of Christ.

Best way I can think to respond is quote you in black, and my response in red:
Mankind has two destinies and they are separate destinies. I completely agree. Mankind does have two destinies, and they are separate.They are not judged by reality they are judged by Truth. I completely agree, "reality" does not judge anything because reality is not a thing. In reality, mankind will be judged by God. You are making postulates to me with no Biblical support. Again, theologically I haven't disagreed with anything you've said. There are many verses that indicate the Truth shall judge us but none that I know of that reality shall judge us. I agree, "reality" will not judge us because reality is not at thing. Jesus, whom I believe to be God, said I Am the Way, the Truth and the Life. Not "I Am the Way the Reality and the Life. Agreed. Stating there was never a time without a reality is superfluous to the argument since of course I believe reality has always existed in time, It's actually important to acknowledge that reality has always existed because it helps demonstrate that reality is not a thing to be created. and before time I might add. "What Is", with respect to existence however is not static or unchangeable with respect to creation.

Again the Bible doesn't say "Truth is simply a description of what reality is or what reality will be." It does have God saying "I Am ... the Truth" as well as the Way and the Life.
Correct, because everything Jesus said and did was True.
Your statement also has a provision for a changing reality ("Truth is simply a description of what reality is, or what reality will be.") That does not match the definition for Reality either: the quality of state or being actual or true in objective existence." "What Reality will be", or will become, necessarily implies a state change, which would be a separate reality from the former.
It matches the definition perfectly fine. Reality does change. You've acknowledged this a number of times so I shouldn't have to rehash that. Reality is only a description of what is. What is, changes every day. Truth is that which corresponds to Reality. Honestly, that should be plainly obvious. It is true that I am sitting at my desk. Therefore, in reality, I am sitting at my desk. You cannot separate what is True from what is reality.

This misses the point. The state of the sun has not changed and I am not saying that makes for a reality. If, however, I said "the Sun is a star is a reality", it would only be so as long as it exists as long as that remains true. Otherwise perhaps many years from now it might be possible to say "Look at the Sun, it is a supernova spread across the solar system. The truth has made the state of those two realities of its existence "a quality of state of being actual in objective existence.
Again, it's non-sensical to talk about multiple realities. Reality is not a thing, and it's not possible for there to be more than one reality. Reality is the totality of all that is. Right now the sun is shining bright and powerful out in space. That is reality. At some point in the future the sun could go supernova, at which point in reality the sun will have gone supernova.
 
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Freodin

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Jesus, whom I believe to be God, said I Am the Way, the Truth and the Life. Not "I Am the Way the Reality and the Life.
As I see you as someone a lot closer to my own concepts of "reality" and "truth", may I ask what this means to you? Or what you think the author of John, or Jesus meant with these words?


Correct, because everything Jesus said and did was True.
That would be the "truth" part, correct? Could it be interpreted in the way of "What I say is true, what I tell you to do is the right way to do it, and I can guarantee you life."?
 
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SPF

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Could it be interpreted in the way of "What I say is true, what I tell you to do is the right way to do it, and I can guarantee you life."?
Possibly, though if I were to try and encapsulate what I think Jesus was saying in summary explanations I would probably say this:

"I am the way" - Christ is the way of salvation itself. Only through Christ can forgiveness be found.
"the truth" - Christ embodies Truth in person and character. He is the sum and substance of all truths of the Gospel, He is the truth of all the types, and shadows, promises and prophecies of the OT; they have all their accomplishment in Him.
"and the life" - Christ is the author and giver of life, both natural and spiritual. The law was the ministration of condemnation and death; Christ is the true way to eternal life.
 
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Freodin

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Possibly, though if I were to try and encapsulate what I think Jesus was saying in summary explanations I would probably say this:

"I am the way" - Christ is the way of salvation itself. Only through Christ can forgiveness be found.
"the truth" - Christ embodies Truth in person and character. He is the sum and substance of all truths of the Gospel, He is the truth of all the types, and shadows, promises and prophecies of the OT; they have all their accomplishment in Him.
"and the life" - Christ is the author and giver of life, both natural and spiritual. The law was the ministration of condemnation and death; Christ is the true way to eternal life.
I fear when you drop into Christianese, I have as much problems following you as I have with John1720.
In a previous post, I mentioned briefly that Christians in general are being rather bad at their job, which, in Patrick's words, was to be a "messenger".

I fear I see the same problem here. How can you be a good messenger, when your message isn't understood, and you don't care if it isn't understood.

Perhaps you are better at that. ;)

So...
How can a person be a "way of salvation"? I can understand a person's teachings being that... but what does "through Christ" even mean?
In the same way, how can Jesus "embody" truth? You said that truth is what corresponds to reality? How does a person correspond to reality?
 
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Freodin

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It matches the definition perfectly fine. Reality does change. You've acknowledged this a number of times so I shouldn't have to rehash that. Reality is only a description of what is. What is, changes every day. Truth is that which corresponds to Reality. Honestly, that should be plainly obvious. It is true that I am sitting at my desk. Therefore, in reality, I am sitting at my desk. You cannot separate what is True from what is reality.
I wouldn't even say that reality changes. It is our perception and description of reality that changes, especially considering that we are temporal beings.
 
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SPF

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I fear when you drop into Christianese, I have as much problems following you as I have with John1720.
In a previous post, I mentioned briefly that Christians in general are being rather bad at their job, which, in Patrick's words, was to be a "messenger".

I fear I see the same problem here. How can you be a good messenger, when your message isn't understood, and you don't care if it isn't understood.

Perhaps you are better at that. ;)

So...
How can a person be a "way of salvation"? I can understand a person's teachings being that... but what does "through Christ" even mean?
In the same way, how can Jesus "embody" truth? You said that truth is what corresponds to reality? How does a person correspond to reality?
Yea, Christians can do a really poor job at communicating when we start using "in house" terms to communicate. So please feel free to call me out if I do that.

When the Bible says that Jesus is the "way of Salvation" what we mean is simply that the only way a person can find forgiveness for their sins is through the actions that Christ performed. Namely, dying on the cross. Jesus paid the penalty for our sins. That's what we mean by saying that Jesus is the "way of Salvation" The Bible most certainly teaches an exclusive method by which a person is forgiven for their sins.

By saying that Jesus embodies Truth, I basically just mean that He was perfect, and everything He said and taught was perfectly true.
 
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Freodin

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Yea, Christians can do a really poor job at communicating when we start using "in house" terms to communicate. So please feel free to call me out if I do that.

When the Bible says that Jesus is the "way of Salvation" what we mean is simply that the only way a person can find forgiveness for their sins is through the actions that Christ performed. Namely, dying on the cross. Jesus paid the penalty for our sins. That's what we mean by saying that Jesus is the "way of Salvation" The Bible most certainly teaches an exclusive method by which a person is forgiven for their sins.

By saying that Jesus embodies Truth, I basically just mean that He was perfect, and everything He said and taught was perfectly true.
For everyone who reads this: See, folks, this is the way to do it! A direct answer to a direct question.

Thank you, SPF.
 
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SPF

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I wouldn't even say that reality changes. It is our perception and description of reality that changes, especially considering that we are temporal beings.
I certainly can see what you are saying here, especially if we acknowledge that reality isn't a thing in itself, and only a description of what is. I'm not sure how I can justify a changing reality if I also assert that reality is not a thing.

For example, it is true that I am typing this response right now. So in reality, I am typing this response. Once I hit Post Reply and actually go back to working, it will no longer be true that I am typing this response. So while I say that reality has changed, what has really changed is what I'm doing.

Thus, what we have is an external reality that exists. My beliefs and opinions do not determine what is reality. Truth is that which corresponds to reality. For example, "God exists" is a truth-claim. What you or I think about the existence of God actually has no bearing on whether or not God exists in reality. But He certainly either does or does not exist, and we can point to the Law of Non-Contradiction to support that.

So reality is not a thing in itself. It was not created. It simply is a description of what is. Reality doesn't change, but what is, does change.

PS - I'm an external processor ;)
 
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Freodin

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I certainly can see what you are saying here, especially if we acknowledge that reality isn't a thing in itself, and only a description of what is. I'm not sure how I can justify a changing reality if I also assert that reality is not a thing.

For example, it is true that I am typing this response right now. So in reality, I am typing this response. Once I hit Post Reply and actually go back to working, it will no longer be true that I am typing this response. So while I say that reality has changed, what has really changed is what I'm doing.

Thus, what we have is an external reality that exists. My beliefs and opinions do not determine what is reality. Truth is that which corresponds to reality. For example, "God exists" is a truth-claim. What you or I think about the existence of God actually has no bearing on whether or not God exists in reality. But He certainly either does or does not exist, and we can point to the Law of Non-Contradiction to support that.

So reality is not a thing in itself. It was not created. It simply is a description of what is. Reality doesn't change, but what is, does change.

PS - I'm an external processor ;)
If I may offer a slightly different perspective.

First, I would name "what is" as "reality". Just a term, a name. Seems to fit.
That way, reality is a "thing". It is THE thing. The Thing of Things. I think I called it previously "the sum of all things". If you then also assume that "reality" is atemporal, then it simply cannot change. It already is everything, in every possible temporary state.

Second, when you make a statement like "I am typing a response now.", this is a massive generalization. An "abstraction" as I phrased it in my responses to Patrick. It contains a lot of "unspoken" connotations, about who "I" is, about what "typing" means, what the concept of "now" entails.
You can never explicitly lay out each and every of all these "additional" informations... and mostly, you don't need to. Such a statement only needs to be "good enough" for the receiver to understand what the sender meant. So as I see it, such a statement is never really "true"... only "true enough". And in the same way, it never gets "false"... only "less true".

Is that understandable?
 
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bhsmte

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No, but I believe this is certainly personal opinion. :)
May I suggest that you make a reasoned approach that proves everything I said is mere opinion and we can discuss later. Later because for right now I'm headed out the door.
I might also add the posts are long because I m receiving lenthy posts with lots of questions. That would seem to be directly proportional to my responses.
How was my length on that one? :)
when you support your position with objective evidence, it will no longer be opinion.
 
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John 1720

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If "reality" is dependend on anything, then there is the option of it not existing. So what would be a state of reality not existing?
I think I addressed this in a previous post but "reality" without truth is not reality. I know you disagreed Freodin, I believe you accepted as a standard definition of Reality in a previous post or at least had no problem with it:
  • "the quality of state or being actual or true in objective existence."
Truth has always existed, for God is True, therefore reality has always existed. Hypothetically if God, Who calls Himself "I Am" as well as "the Truth", the Way and Life, was not true but false then reality would not exist and we would not be having this conversation. :) With regard to the component of state in the definition, I would add that we must consider is from "the timeless eternal state of His Being". God always was, God is, and God always will be both True and existent; which of course being a atheist you do not believe. Notice He does have a state of Being, "I Am", with no conditionals and since, God is necessarily true He objectively exists. There is no one like God and He is not subject to anything including time.
It is a known fact that time came into existence with the physical universe and cannot be separated out from the fabric of space, hence we coined the term of inseparability "space-time". The universe had a beginning that was truly real and the overwhelming majority of physicists share that viewpoint. So, with respect to the reality of creation, which you would simply call the universe, there was a point whereupon it did not exist. It is a true claim that: It did not exist. It was not real. After creation, the big bang if you like, it became real being derived from truth of God who made it the universe a reality. However, the universe is a reality dependent both on God and upon the fabric we call space time. Since you do not believe in God we can still both agree that the reality of the universe (e.g. you and I do exist and are having this conversation) is dependent on time (simplifying for the time being) which has a beginning and an end. Before the beginning the the universe was NOT a reality - with time it IS a reality - when time ends it will CEASE to be a reality. So here we have a point where reality is finite as you requested, unless of course you do not believe in the reality of the universe and this conversation really isn't taking place :)

And while you have "stated" repeatedly what you believe about the relationship of truth and reality, you have also never answered my repeated requests to define these terms.
Last time I though I had you at least define "reality"... and then you did an about-turn and claimed that this wasn't your definition, only the standard one.

Just because other people have come to a standard definition that I support doesn't mean it is an about turn - that is completely out of left field. I believe I did answer all your questions yet you did not supply any empirical evidence as why a supernova is an simply an abstraction of a star and not a separate existent entity. Instead all you did was deflect that the Sun is not destined to supernova. Yes, I also knew that before writing but it is an analogy I used because SPF used the sun so I used it as an example as well. I say "perhaps many years from now it might be possible to say." So, yes I am aware the predictive models state that the Sun is an unlikey prospect to supernova and most "probably" will expand into a red giant. It appears disingenuous that you morphed that the example because many stars indeed have already undergone supernova and many more will so the example isn't invalidated because I used the star called the Sun and your literal interpretation missed the point.

You not explaining the existence of a Star and a Supernova as a single abstraction appears to be disingenuous at best or intellectually dishonest at worst, as long as you are so willing to point out other peoples flaws while ignoring your own.

  • Show me some empirical evidence of why they are abstractions of one another.
So basically, whenever you tell me that you believe truth defines reality... I have no way of knowing what you are talking about, because you keep evading.

I wonder why.
I wonder why you're not reading the posts before you make such outlandish statements.
In two separate posts I told you what my definition was:

  • I stand behind my original premise, which is not only mine but has an historical precedent. Plato reasoned the same argument when he stated, paraphrased, that -God is Truth and the truth divine. So that hypothesis, which I share, is indeed older than my assertion and older than Christianity itself. #353
  • To which you replied:
    Interesting. My hypothesis is also quite old, based on Plato, Aristoteles and some more modern folk like Thomas Aquinas. It is commonly known in Philosophy as the "Correspondence Theory of Truth". It does also take some elements from the Coherence Theory of Truth.
  • I also said in a post that Plato’s known ideas on truth reflect the view that he held that absolute truth existed. While also claiming he did not know whether or not people would ever be able to discern absolute truth he does imply that God must be a first cause and a self-moved mover otherwise there will be an infinite regression with respect to the causes of causes.
    • As I stated Jesus said He is the Way, the Truth and the Life; in the flesh incarnate. Being the Word of God from eternity The Gospel of John tells us He was from the eternal not just within the domain of time.
    • In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend - John 1:1-5
  • God therefore is the ultimate Truth, which defines all truth - in fact all truth is God's truth - He is the source of all Truth, as well as love and all that exists. According to His goodness He has given us free will to choose. We have the choice to turn to the truth or not
    • Deuteronomy 30:15 "See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil
    • Deuteronomy 30:19-20 "I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; that you may love the LORD your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days
I have people complaining about long posts but keep finding I need to reiterate things multiple times.

Stop thinking of reality as a temporal entity. Listen to what I repeatedly told you.
If I say that the sun is a star after it goes supernova, my statement is a "truth", according to the way I consistently used this term here. It describes reality in an abstract form. In this case, it presupposes a certain concept of time, and a certain reference point within that concept. And also in this case, it would be a bad description of reality.

But in reality, the sun is something that encompasses gas cloud, star, super-nova... (well, in real reality our sun is too small to go super-nova. It will be a nova and a white dwarf star after that. Ultimately a black dwarf. Note also the intentional inconsistent usage of "reality" here.)
Oops!
Actually you are wrong it is destined to be a Red Giant based on our best predictions. ;)
Should I now throw out your inconsistent usage of "reality" here. This is the kind of silliness you force me to put up with that poisons the well of just having a natural conversation in discussing things logically. We were in the context of star and supernova my friend and I believe you knew exactly what I meant in order to discuss the point.

The reality of that doesn't change. It is our perception, and thus our statements, that change.
The state of a Star (I'll have to be explicit going forward in my examples) say 1987 before and after it underwent supernova is far more than our perception of it. Think of what you are saying. My perception or your perception isn't responsible for the change from being a star to it not existing as a star any longer. In fact it's residue may become planets for other stars, etc, etc. but that star is gone, gone, gone! It no longer exists as a star in reality and to say it does is false. Let's not play games.
This date in science: Supernova 1987A | EarthSky.org

Does the reality of our sun now being our sun change after it expands? Does the statement in an astronomical book "Our sun is a G2V main-sequence star." suddenly become false after the expansion?
Or would you have to admit that the context of this literal statement needs to be considered... thus, that it is not a literal, precise description of reality, but just an abstraction?
Like I said disingenuous as I know you understood the point Freodin.
I'm not at all special. Most likely, you didn't ask the right questions. Or, even more likely, you didn't ask any questions, because you believe you already "understand" it.

I fear a massive case of special pleading incomming...
Okay you're not special - perhaps that is too lofty an expression. Let's just say you don't fit into the same category as most atheists I have had discussions with or the experiences other Christian apologist would say are within 3 sigmas of the bell curve.

Existence being permanent has to mean that it cannot be dependent on anything. If existence is only permanent because God wills it... that God could end existence (all existence, not only his own), but stopping to "will" it. That is not what I would call "permanent".

God is Truth. God is life. Therefore "He Is" or rather as He says "I AM".
Do I see the next strawman about atheists rasing its ugly head there: that atheists "hate" God/Jesus?

No Freodin, your question is not based in reality. If God doesn't hate atheists but calls them to Himself, and I have seen many former atheists transformed into Christians, then I am also called to love atheists too. This is the Gospel Age, the age of mercy towards all. I believe God will judge whenever He sees fit to and until then I am to pray for you as much as I do for Muslims, Buddhists and Hindu's that I work with almost every day. I love them too although they re usually much easier to talk to about Jesus than unchurched Americans, agnostics and atheists. My job, as I have stated before, is to bring the message of God's love toward all - not convince them. I rely on God, whom I believe exists in each one of us, to do that but know God does not coerce one towards belief - therefore I do not either. I am analogous to an RNA messenger when it comes to cell creation in the Biblical sense.
Atheists do not believe that these claims or even the whole story is true. That's all.
Yes, I fully understand the dividing line is belief, just as Jesus taught us.
On my profile page, you can find my join date for this forum: 2 March 2002. Over 15 years. These decade-and-a-half only encompasses a part of my history. Even my internet history started before that, and I have several decades of life before that.
Do you really think I have never heard that sermon before? Do you really think that I have never followed the... friendly advice... of Christians to "ask God"? Do you really think that I would have remained firm in my beliefs if I had ever gotten an answer?

And here I really am "special"... different from many other atheists here on this forum and in real life. I am one of those who never have been a Christian or other kind of "believer". As soon as I consciously thought about the whole story, I tought to myself: "No, this doesn't make any sense. This cannot be true." I have been an atheist for by far the most of my life.

Yes, and I go to different countries and work with peoples from many nations here and abroad because the love of God compels my heart to bring the message that the greatest hope of mankind is the Great commission. Romans 8:31-36

If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written:
“For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”
Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Others here were Christians and other believers. Some were very vocal, very fundamentalist, very "born again". And for those, at some point came a moment where something didn't make sense anymore. And they did ask God. And found that in the situation they needed their God the most, he was silent. As if he didn't exist.
For the record I am not a "fundamentalist" Christian and believe every Christian is necessarily "born again" - the spiritual rebirth of the Holy Spirit given to us by God. If they have not been born again alas they are not truly a Christian. They may think they are intellectually but they are not in their heart truly His yet.
It also has not been my experience that those who truly ask God to reveal Himself in their lives that He does not answer in a way we can understand. If one truly knows God there is no denying His existence. It's like the story of the older couple who were on a long road trip driving when the wife said, "You know, I remember the days when we sat so close and you had your arm around me wherever we drove." The husband looked away from the road at his wife and said, "Well honey, I'm not the one who has moved from my position".

If you are really interested, I can point you to some other threads/posts... or explain again here... about my position to this "ask and you will be answered" spiel.

No, like I said God arbitrates for the human heart and He does that differently for those who diligently seek Him than for those who do not. He gives grace to the humbles but resists the proud. If they have heard the message and rejected Christ then I will just pray for them. Although it makes me sad in the light of eternity I can do little but put them in God's hands by my prayers.

You will forgive me if I perceive this as just the usual Christian evasion to the fact that they don't have anything to offer to atheists.
Of course I forgive you Freodin! I myself am a sinner that God has forgiven, so who am I not to forgive you or anyone else for that matter. The woman at the well initially though Jesus had nothing to offer her either.
John 4:10
John 4 for the rest of the story
 
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John 1720

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when you support your position with objective evidence, it will no longer be opinion.
Hello Bhsmte
You neglect to mention the specifics as to what I have postulated that is not objective according to logic, in other words this post is missing the object of your claim and only contains your opinion. Can you please try to be more objective?
 
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bhsmte

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Hello Bhsmte
You neglect to mention the specifics as to what I have postulated that is not objective according to logic, in other words this post is missing the object of your claim and only contains your opinion. Can you please try to be more objective?
Sure, your statements lack independent verification with objective evidence. If you feel i have missed this objective evidence to support your statements, feel free to point out where you posted the same.
 
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John 1720

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Possibly, though if I were to try and encapsulate what I think Jesus was saying in summary explanations I would probably say this:

"I am the way" - Christ is the way of salvation itself. Only through Christ can forgiveness be found.
"the truth" - Christ embodies Truth in person and character. He is the sum and substance of all truths of the Gospel, He is the truth of all the types, and shadows, promises and prophecies of the OT; they have all their accomplishment in Him.
"and the life" - Christ is the author and giver of life, both natural and spiritual. The law was the ministration of condemnation and death; Christ is the true way to eternal life.
Hmmm, it is not simply I am the Way and then we go off describing what the truth and the life means. Correctly stated it would be similar to
I am the father, the husband, and the grandfather.
It is a statement of identity that is equivalent to
I am the way
I am the truth
I am the life
By saying this, He meant rather to draw out their inquiries and reply to them. Christ is "THE WAY" to the gateway to the Father; He is "THE TRUTH" of ALL we find in the Father ( Col 2:9 ), and He is all "THE LIFE" their is no other.

The equivalency then include God said, "I AM TRUTH"
God is stating He Is Truth not just He practices it.
 
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John 1720

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Sure, your statements lack independent verification with objective evidence. If you feel i have missed this objective evidence to support your statements, feel free to point out where you posted the same.
Specifically what statements? If we are going to have a discussion you need to show me what statements are not objective and help me to understand why they are not, otherwise I am not going to waste my time guessing.
 
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John 1720

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If you think I neglected the point of existence, you may be correct because I'm not talking about the point of existence, I'm talking about the definition of the term reality and how we properly use it. That's the extent of my involvement in this discussion. I completely agree with you that God is immutable and that we are not. Our existence is "altered" every day, every hour, every minute. There are times in our life where our existence is altered dramatically, and times where our existence is altered imperceptibly. For example, in reality, I am now older than I was when I made my first contribution to this thread. My existence has changed.

I think the problem is that you keep using the term reality as if it is a thing. Reality is not a thing. It was not created by God, though certainly God has the power to control what is reality due to omnipotence.
Probably much of what is here is contained in my post to Freodin. In order to be a reality it must be true. God was a real before time because God Himself is Truth and Life, etc. God made the universe a Reality but if that is not first TRUE it is not a reality. Of course it is TRUE.
Reality is only a description of what is. Whatever is, is reality.
No it depends on being TRUE unless you believe like Freodin that what is imagined is Reality.


What does this have to do with our understanding of the term "reality" and its proper usage? Nothing. Right now the reality I live in has me here at my office, living on earth, typing this reply. My belief is that after Christ returns, in reality I will be living here on earth with a redeemed body in the presence of Christ.
It is a separate existence than what you had before.
Galatians 2:20 you no longer live but Christ liveth in you
2 Corinthians 5:16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer.
We are a new creature in Christ - the old man crucified and us reborn, first by the spirit, and then bodily after the Spirit and risen Christ.

Best way I can think to respond is quote you in black, and my response in red:
Mankind has two destinies and they are separate destinies. I completely agree. Mankind does have two destinies, and they are separate.They are not judged by reality they are judged by Truth. I completely agree, "reality" does not judge anything because reality is not a thing. In reality, mankind will be judged by God. You are making postulates to me with no Biblical support. Again, theologically I haven't disagreed with anything you've said. There are many verses that indicate the Truth shall judge us but none that I know of that reality shall judge us. I agree, "reality" will not judge us because reality is not at thing. Jesus, whom I believe to be God, said I Am the Way, the Truth and the Life. Not "I Am the Way the Reality and the Life. Agreed. Stating there was never a time without a reality is superfluous to the argument since of course I believe reality has always existed in time, It's actually important to acknowledge that reality has always existed because it helps demonstrate that reality is not a thing to be created. and before time I might add. "What Is", with respect to existence however is not static or unchangeable with respect to creation.
Reality being always existent doesn't preclude that reality can take on different forms. The reality of hell is much different than the reality of heaven - they are simply nt the same but both are indeed real.

[
Again, it's non-sensical to talk about multiple realities. Reality is not a thing, and it's not possible for there to be more than one reality. Reality is the totality of all that is. Right now the sun is shining bright and powerful out in space. That is reality. At some point in the future the sun could go supernova, at which point in reality the sun will have gone supernova.

We are both postulating and are on equal ground. I have not called your postulates nonsense why do you call mine nonsense.
Do you see you the problem in tense here? So would it be true to state that in the heavens there is a Sun when there is not? Sure planets and possible other stars can steal its materials but the Sun existing in the solar system is not in reality a statement that is true within that hypothetical timeframe. Reality and existence in my book are inseparable.
Lastly, could you please explain to me how heaven and hell are one and the same reality? I'm just not getting your point.
Thanks and may God bless, Patrick
 
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SPF

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Probably much of what is here is contained in my post to Freodin. In order to be a reality it must be true. God was a real before time because God Himself is Truth and Life, etc. God made the universe a Reality but if that is not first TRUE it is not a reality. Of course it is TRUE.
You're continuing to misunderstand the term "reality" by saying things like "a reality" Reality is a description of what is. Whatever is, is reality. God is eternal, without beginning or end. In reality, God has always existed. Truth is that which corresponds to reality. Before God created the universe, it was true that no universe existed. It was also the case that in reality, no universe existed. Then, God willed the universe into existence. It then became true that the universe existed.

It is a separate existence than what you had before.
Galatians 2:20 you no longer live but Christ liveth in you
2 Corinthians 5:16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer.
We are a new creature in Christ - the old man crucified and us reborn, first by the spirit, and then bodily after the Spirit and risen Christ.
My existence changes every day. I get a little bit older, a little bit wider ;), and hopefully I grow in my sanctification. In reality, there was a time when I was not a Christian. However, now it is true that in reality I am a Christian.

Reality being always existent doesn't preclude that reality can take on different forms. The reality of hell is much different than the reality of heaven - they are simply not the same but both are indeed real.
Again, what you're saying isn't wrong in that the experience of hell is much different than the experience of heaven. But you're still misusing the term reality. There is only one reality. Period. In reality, there is a heaven and there is a hell. In reality, one person will experience heaven while another person will experience hell. Both of those things are going on in reality.

You continue to talk across people because you continue to misuse the term reality.

1. There is only one reality.
2. People will have different experiences in reality.
3. Truth is that which corresponds to reality.

And FYI, I'm not calling what you're saying "nonsense" in the way you're taking it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm assuming you don't actually have an education in philosophy. The term non-sensical is applied to things like square-circles, or married bachelors.
 
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bhsmte

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Probably much of what is here is contained in my post to Freodin. In order to be a reality it must be true. God was a real before time because God Himself is Truth and Life, etc. God made the universe a Reality but if that is not first TRUE it is not a reality. Of course it is TRUE.

No it depends on being TRUE unless you believe like Freodin that what is imagined is Reality.



It is a separate existence than what you had before.
Galatians 2:20 you no longer live but Christ liveth in you
2 Corinthians 5:16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer.
We are a new creature in Christ - the old man crucified and us reborn, first by the spirit, and then bodily after the Spirit and risen Christ.


Reality being always existent doesn't preclude that reality can take on different forms. The reality of hell is much different than the reality of heaven - they are simply nt the same but both are indeed real.


[
We are both postulating and are on equal ground. I have not called your postulates nonsense why do you call mine nonsense.
Do you see you the problem in tense here? So would it be true to state that in the heavens there is a Sun when there is not? Sure planets and possible other stars can steal its materials but the Sun existing in the solar system is not in reality a statement that is true within that hypothetical timeframe. Reality and existence in my book are inseparable.
Lastly, could you please explain to me how heaven and hell are one and the same reality? I'm just not getting your point.
Thanks and may God bless, Patrick
"God was real before time" please support this statement with objective evidence, that is verfiable.
 
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SPF

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Lastly, could you please explain to me how heaven and hell are one and the same reality? I'm just not getting your point.
Reality is the 30,000 foot view from the sky. No, reality is the 1,000,000,000,000,000 foot view above everything. Reality exists apart from you or I. Everything that is, is contained "within" reality. There is only one reality, and everything that is true and real would be part of reality.

Just think of things that you believe are true, I'll list some of them:
1. God exists
2. You and I exist
3. Heaven and Hell exist

You believe those things are all true. Meaning, you believe that they all correspond to reality. Meaning, it is True that God exists. Therefore, in reality, God exists. You believe that you and I exist. It is true that you and I exist. Therefore, if it is true that you and I exist, then in reality, you and I exist. You believe that man's final destination will either be heaven or hell. Therefore, in reality, I will either be in heaven or I will be in hell. At the moment it is true that I am on earth. Therefore, at the moment, in reality, I am on earth.
Whatever is, is reality. There is one reality. My experience of reality will be different than your experience of reality. My experience of reality will be different every day.
 
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