What is the truth?

[John 1720]

Have you not read anything I've typed? Reality constitutes all that is. Whatever is, is. Does God exist? Yes. So in reality, God exists.

That's the point we differ on. You say God exists in reality but I am saying God Is the highest reality. Reality is dependent upon God's Being and not the other way around.

You are correct that God's experience of reality is vastly different than our experience of reality. But that doesn't follow that there are multiple realities. Just as in reality it's sunny for me, and in reality, it's rainy for you - only one reality, just a different experience of it.

Come on John, really? God is NOT a contingent being. Indeed, God is the only non-contingent being. On a side note, I think William Lane Craig does a great job with the Kalam Cosmological Argument.

Yes I would agree God is not dependent on anything even on "What Is" because eternally He IS and forever will be. So how is God not the ultimate Reality or is Reality the first cause of God? Getting past that paradox further down your track of reasoning do we have a non-contingent reality and a contingent reality that are one in the same? Or is one of them not real? Or are both subject to the Reality which IS and which God is IN?
Yes, great video I've been saying the same thing as the Kalam Cosmological Argument for many years using the same points on many threads in this forum as well as many other forums in cyberspace. Nothing in the video debunks what I said but there are two factors in the video, with respect to the cause and quality of state beyond the soace/time universe, which impeach your theories about time and your postulate that Reality just is independent of God. Their premise states that the first cause of the universe must be: Spaceless, Timeless, Immaterial, Uncaused, Powerful or as we define - GOD.

• • Yes, it certainly is change. Glorified bodies that will not be subject to the adverse effects of sin. But nowhere does that change indicate we will somehow exist outside of time. There's no reason to think that our existence will not be in the same fashion that Adam and Eve's was when they were in the garden and in the presence of God.

Sure. Take out your clock and look at the second hand. Then type out your response to me, and when you're done look at your watch. You'll see that time has passed. It's because we exist in a linear world that can be tracked with time, which measures change/duration.

As I stated your stuck in 17th century physics and you're basing time on your experience alone and not on reality. Your experiences, as you state, does not change Reality. So your premise is self contradicting.

In Christ, Patrick

 

[SPF]

You say God exists in reality but I am saying God Is the highest reality. Reality is dependent upon God's Being and not the other way around.

This is the fundamental difference in what we are saying. I think what you're saying makes as much sense as it does to say that God can make a square-circle. It's non-sensical.

Reality is not dependent upon anything because reality is not a thing that was created. Reality cannot be manipulated, though our experience of it can be. There cannot be multiple realities, just different experiences of reality. For reality is simply that which is.

Reality: The quality of state or being actual or true in objective existence.

Is it actual or true that God is eternal? Yes. Therefore, in reality God is an eternal being. Is it actual or true that there was a "point" in which God chose to create the universe? Yes. Therefore, in reality, God chose to create the universe. Is it actual or true that for me today it's raining and that for my brother it's sunny? Yes. Our experience of reality is different but in reality I'm experiencing a rainy day and he a sunny day.

Is it actual or true that Christ will return and redeem and restore all of creation? Yes. So when that happens, it will be reality.

Only one reality. Whatever is, is reality.

Saying things like "God is the highest reality" is non-sensical. It has no meaning. There are not degrees of reality.

There is absolutely nothing in the definition of reality that would suggest that there can be multiple realities.

 

[Dave-W]

Reality is not dependent upon anything because reality is not a thing that was created.

Of course it was.

All creation - everything that makes up reality - is IN HIM:

Col 1.16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

 

[SPF]

You are correct Dave. However, what you're ignoring is that Reality is not a "thing" Reality is a description of what is.

Reality: The quality of state or being actual or true in objective existence.

There was "reality" before God created the first contingent thing. It's non-sensical to suggest otherwise. When God existed in eternity before He created the first thing - there was still reality because all reality is, is a description of what is.

So before God created the universe the reality was that only God existed. There's always reality, because reality is only a description.

 

[John 1720]

This is the fundamental difference in what we are saying. I think what you're saying makes as much sense as it does to say that God can make a square-circle. It's non-sensical.

Well I'd agree your comment of a square circle is nonsense but I would also infer your analogy is unrealistic nonsense and irrelevant to the conversation as well. I know you are entrenched in the belief only your opinion matters and that you are the arbiter of truth and logic, but let's remember that you have already proved you do not understand the property of physical time. You keep stating time is simply a measurement but I've shown you several major physicists that categorically state that one cannot separate time and space. starting with Einstein and ending with Hawkings. I brought out the point that even your selection of the reasonable faith video http://www.reasonablefaith.org/kalam impeaches your own statements about time. So I'm afraid you must come to the conclusion you have to put your pants on 1 leg at a time just like the rest of us and prove your conjectures. If you are proved false in one statement leading up to your conclusions in another than I'd say it is time for you to rethink your hypothesis.

1. Reality is not dependent upon anything because reality is not a thing that was created.
2. Reality cannot be manipulated, though our experience of it can be.

Again mere conjectures with no support are not axiomatic. Your stating them without any proofs should not incline us to conclude that we should put faith that your assertions are indeed true. They are simply conjectures that may in fact be nothing more than fallacies; such as your conjecture that time simply a linear measurement and has always existed, even before creation. They simply are statements with no validity no matter how many times you repeat them.

1. There cannot be multiple realities, just different experiences of reality.
2. For reality is simply that which is.
   • Reality: The quality of state or being actual or true in objective existence.

1. According to who and by what empirical proofs?
2. Yes, which I proposed was an agreeable standard definition and, which you did agree with.

1. Is it actual or true that God is eternal? Yes.
2. Therefore, in reality God is an eternal being.
3. Is it actual or true that there was a "point" in which God chose to create the universe? Yes.
4. Therefore, in reality, God chose to create the universe.
5. Is it actual or true that for me today it's raining and that for my brother it's sunny? Yes. Our experience of reality is different but in reality I'm experiencing a rainy day and he a sunny day.

1. Agreed
2. Except God in Himself is a reality and is not dependent upon being "IN" Reality. There could be no reality without God. Because God is both True and without Him nothing exists - including reality.
3. Agreed
4. I disagree. Reality is dependent on God and not God dependent upon some coined term like "IN REALITY". God in Himself made a decision of Will to create a universe with a subordinate and mutable reality unlike His own reality but in many way reflective of the eternal Reality of Himself. You are making God dependent upon a term you call reality but deny God is the ultimate Reality from which all things consiste and without God would have no reality. It is circular reasoning which I don't believe lines up with your theology, which for the most part is the same as mine.
5. You keep talking about experiences but that is not what we are speaking about and so this is superfluous to our discussion. God didn't just have an experience of creating a new reality that has a quality of State that differs from His own quality of state. And though Creation is true in objective existence that makes Creation a reality the universes objective existence is temporal and not eternal. That's not a just a perception or experience that is a fact that contains the two necessary pieces of quality of state and objective existence both which differ from the Reality of God.

1. Is it actual or true that Christ will return and redeem and restore all of creation? Yes. So when that happens, it will be reality.
2. Only one reality.
3. Whatever is, is reality.
4. Saying things like "God is the highest reality" is non-sensical.
5. It has no meaning. There are not degrees of reality.
6. There is absolutely nothing in the definition of reality that would suggest that there can be multiple realities.

1. Yes, I agree it will be another reality.
2. Nope.
3. So my dog is, I think you are, I is, God always is was and evermore shall be. Are we all the same? Separate?
4. Nope. Something is not nonsense just because you say it is. Many famous scientists have stated things they don't fully understand were nonsense only to be proven wrong. Things stand on their merits or they fall according to the truth. That's just the reality of Truth.
5. And this is empirical according to what besides your opinion?
6. I just pointed out that there was.

You seem to be willing to call postulates other than your own nonsense and correct us with opinions but you yourself neglected to mention anything about the video that impeaches your conjectures about time with any admission, after many proofs, that you were indeed wrong. In addition you also did not answer any of my questions from the last post:

1. So how is God not the ultimate Reality or is Reality the first cause of God?
2. Getting past that paradox further down your track of reasoning do we have a non-contingent reality and a contingent reality that are one in the same?
3. Or is one of them not real?
4. Or are both subject to the Reality which IS and which God is IN?

In Christ, Pat

 

[SPF]

I know you are entrenched in the belief only your opinion matters and that you are the arbiter of truth and logic

John, you're more mature than this. I could easily say the exact same thing to you, but that would not be very irenic.

but let's remember that you have already proved you do not understand the property of physical time. You keep stating time is simply a measurement but I've shown you several major physicists that categorically state that one cannot separate time and space.

Do you recall me saying that time is only a measurement? One of the functions of how we use time is as a measurement of change and/or duration.

Except God in Himself is a reality and is not dependent upon being "IN" Reality. There could be no reality without God. Because God is both True and without Him nothing exists - including reality.

• Reality: The quality of state or being actual or true in objective existence.

I don't know John. You and I both believe that God is the author of everything, and that without God nothing would exist. So working from that foundation, and then looking at the definition of reality, I don't see why we couldn't say that if God did not exist, then in reality nothing would exist. It would be objectively true that nothing existed.

So my dog is, I think you are, I is, God always is was and evermore shall be. Are we all the same? Separate?

Questions like are either at worst uncharitable, or at best show that you still actually don't understand what I'm saying. I wouldn't say you are your dog, though many dog owners do actually look like their dogs. I am, and you are, and your dog is, and God is, certainly unique.

In addition you also did not answer any of my questions from the last post:

1. So how is God not the ultimate Reality or is Reality the first cause of God?
2. Getting past that paradox further down your track of reasoning do we have a non-contingent reality and a contingent reality that are one in the same?
3. Or is one of them not real?
4. Or are both subject to the Reality which IS and which God is IN?

1. God is not the "ultimate reality" because there is no such thing as an "ultimate reality" There is only reality. God is ultimately the only omnipotent, omniscient, eternal being that exists within reality. But all of us live within the same reality. For reality again, based upon the definition - is singular. You have the burden of proof to demonstrate how based upon the definition of reality you are able to determine that there are multiple realities, or degrees of reality.

2. This questions seems to make no sense to me. But much of what you say seems to make no sense to me, so we will press on. God is a non-contingent being, everything else is contingent. That statement fits the definition of reality in that it is both actual and true and objective.

3/4 - I'm not sure what these questions are in response to.

Bottom line is that you have yet to demonstrate how based upon the definition of reality that there can be multiple realities. That suggestion sounds non-sensical to me. Because reality is the quality of state or being actual or true in objective existence. Which sounds to me like everything that is true in objective existence is real. There's nothing about that which suggests multiple realities or how that could even be possible.

 

[John 1720]

I have been necessarily away from the boards and away from home for a while so quick response and a couple of comments on your complaint and on your statement on time. You stated that I said this and cherry picked it out of my quote"

I know you are entrenched in the belief only your opinion matters and that you are the arbiter of truth and logic

What preceded that sentence was:
Well I'd agree your comment of a square circle is nonsense but I would also infer your analogy is unrealistic nonsense and irrelevant to the conversation as well. ​

John, you're more mature than this. I could easily say the exact same thing to you, but that would not be very irenic.

It's interesting that you left out the rest of the paragraph which was simply a response to your very mature and peace loving statement:

"I think what you're saying makes as much sense as it does to say that God can make a square-circle. It's non-sensical."

But when I expressed to you many posts earlier that I found the "nonsense" comment a non-constructive caricature, you persisted in using the comment in every post afterwards. No big deal, I've got big shoulders, but your response to lecture me on maturity and peace appears quite disingenuous and self-righteous. Nuff said, you are mature, peaceful, and make a 100% sense unlike anyone who happens to disagee with your opinion but it is time to move on since it isn't germane to the debate.

Do you recall me saying that time is only a measurement? One of the functions of how we use time is as a measurement of change and/or duration.

Only?
Pretty sure I said:
" It's much more than a measurement it is a physical property. its initial expansion or stretch marks have been detected throughout the fabric of space/time. See Cosmic Background Explorer - Wikipedia
[/QUOTE]
Why you did I say this? It was primarily in response to your statement.

1. Time is primarily a measurement. It measures change and duration.
2. It's interesting that when you ask someone who believes that time is a created thing when God created time, they seem to indicate that God created time at the same "moment" that God created the first contingent thing. This would make sense, because once something contingent was created, ie - something with a beginning, we then became able to measure its duration

1. So as you can see my comment was in response to you stating that time is primarily a measurement and not primarily a physical property. This shows a great misunderstanding of what time physically is. Sorry if that does not fit in with your narrative but why keep propagating something that is obviously a falsehood?
2. So are you knocking people who dare to say time is a created thing? Not sure of the motive behind the comment but it is easily explained and makes my point that finite reality is much different than eternal and everlasting reality. People say this because everything in our present reality and language is based upon our existence as finite beings. Sure we can say there is infinity, everlasting and eternity but we really have no operative words to convey tense in infinite and eternal terms.

In Christ, John 1720

 

[SPF]

I would recommend you not take my comments referring to things you say as "non-sensical" on a personal level. It's not meant to be a personal attack. It's a term that we use in philosophical discussion that is a simile with illogical. Non-sensical and illogical can be used interchangeably. For example, a square-circle is illogical/non-sensical.

What I'm saying is that your continued and repetitive statements (without philosophical support) that there are multiple realities is non-sensical/illogical. It's the same as saying you can create a square-circle.

• Reality: The quality of state or being actual or true in objective existence.

This definition covers all of existence. It's comprehensive. Every single thing that is actual or true in existence falls under the scope of what is real. You have the burden of proof to demonstrate that somehow multiple realities can exist.

Even if you posited a multi-verse theory, then all one would have to say to that would be, "In reality, the multi-verse theory is true". Reality is not a thing that is created. You have not yet shown how this can be true.

 

[John 1720]

• Reality: The quality of state or being actual or true in objective existence.

1. I don't know John. You and I both believe that God is the author of everything, and that without God nothing would exist.
2. So working from that foundation, and then looking at the definition of reality, I don't see why we couldn't say that if God did not exist, then in reality nothing would exist.
3. It would be objectively true that nothing existed.

1. TRUE, I wholeheartedly agree with you on this point.
2. If GOD did not exist nothing would be REAL and there would be NO REALITY or REALITIES; "from nothing nothing comes."
3. According to Whom? What is Truth? It wouldn't exist either.

• Whatever is, is reality.

So my dog IS, I think you ARE, I IS, God always IS, WAS, and evermore SHALL BE.
Are we all the same? Separate?

Questions like are either at worst uncharitable, or at best show that you still actually don't understand what I'm saying. I wouldn't say you are your dog, though many dog owners do actually look like their dogs. I am, and you are, and your dog is, and God is, certainly unique.

Huh? How was that uncharitable????
In other words by your definition: "Whatever IS, IS Reality".
My dog is reality; you are reality; I am reality; God is reality.
Merely inserting the is's into your postulate and coming up with more multiples than I ever suggested.

1. God is not the "ultimate reality" because there is no such thing as an "ultimate reality".
2. There is only reality.
3. God is ultimately the only omnipotent, omniscient, eternal being that exists within reality.
4. But all of us live within the same reality.
5. For reality again, based upon the definition - is singular.
6. You have the burden of proof to demonstrate how based upon the definition of reality you are able to determine that there are multiple realities, or degrees of reality.

1. What is reality without GOD? Isn't it God who makes everything REAL because He is in Truth REAL HIMSELF?
2. Really what is that Reality? Please define?
3. So God exists WITHIN Reality? It a good thing for God that this reality exists, else where would He go. Is Reality the first cause of God? I'm very confused!
4. We live in the same reality of God?
5. The definition defines a reality the same way we would define a man, or a lion, sheep, goat. Are men and sheep singular only. You seem to be taking immense linguistic freedom in expressing to me what your definition is.
6. Nice of you to draw that conclusion but I've already given you, ad-nauseum I might add, far more reasons, than you have provided for your singularity.

This questions seems to make no sense to me. But much of what you say seems to make no sense to me, so we will press on. God is a non-contingent being, everything else is contingent. That statement fits the definition of reality in that it is both actual and true and objective.

3/4 - I'm not sure what these questions are in response to.

The questions are below for reference:

1. So how is God not the ultimate Reality or is Reality the first cause of God?
2. Getting past that paradox further down your track of reasoning do we have a non-contingent reality and a contingent reality that are one in the same?
3. Or is one of them not real?
4. Or are both subject to the Reality which IS and which God is IN?

I'll clarify question 2. More simply you said God is a non contingent Being and humankind is a contingent being. Is a non-contingent Being and a contingent being rel in the same way?

Question's 3 & 4 are derivative
John 17:20

 

[John 1720]

I would recommend you not take my comments referring to things you say as "non-sensical" on a personal level. It's not meant to be a personal attack. It's a term that we use in philosophical discussion that is a simile with illogical. Non-sensical and illogical can be used interchangeably. For example, a square-circle is illogical/non-sensical.

Usually before you call something nonsense, illogical you have a proof that shows it to be illogical, which you have not done. Don't know where you teach but the comment is not based on logic but sheer opinion. I'm sure you would not be offended, however, if I told you what you are saying makes as much sense as God creating a square circle. I mean what is that?

What I'm saying is that your continued and repetitive statements (without philosophical support) that there are multiple realities is non-sensical/illogical. It's the same as saying you can create a square-circle.

And there you go again.

• Reality: The quality of state or being actual or true in objective existence.

This definition covers all of existence. It's comprehensive. Every single thing that is actual or true in existence falls under the scope of what is real. You have the burden of proof to demonstrate that somehow multiple realities can exist.

Nope. It does NOT say this covers ALL of existence - you added that.
Objective
impartial, unbiased, unprejudiced, nonpartisan, disinterested, neutral, uninvolved, even-handed, equitable, fair, fair-minded, just, open-minded, dispassionate, detached, neutral.
existence
actuality, being, existing

I am actually a being that exists, my pets are, my children are, my wife is. I can equitabally say that.

Even if you posited a multi-verse theory, then all one would have to say to that would be, "In reality, the multi-verse theory is true". Reality is not a thing that is created. You have not yet shown how this can be true.

Superfluous, I did NOT posit a multiverse so why go there? You have not shown a singularity of reality is true - even though you keep repeating your opinion over and over without ever getting to logical proof.

Regards John 17:20

 

[SPF]

If GOD did not exist nothing would be REAL and there would be NO REALITY or REALITIES; "from nothing nothing comes."

I agree that what comes from nothing is nothing. Something cannot come from nothing. You and I agree that what has always been there is God. Therefore, if God did not exist, then nothing would exist.

CARM has a definition of reality that certainly agrees with the definition we've been using, but also, I think, clarifies the definition. Let me know if you agree with it:

Reality is the state or condition of having actual existence, of being real. In philosophy, it is the position that things exist independent of the ideas used to describe them. That which is real is not fictional, is not imaginary, etc.

Given that understanding of the term reality, then if nothing existed, then there would be no reality. I am willing to grant that.

According to Whom? What is Truth? It wouldn't exist either.

Again, according to CARM (I'm using CARM because I think it's a source where we have a lot of agreement) they give a broad definition of truth as:

Truth is a statement that accurately reflects reality, logic, and/or morality. That which is true cannot be self-contradictory.

If you can agree with this, then the statement that it is true that nothing exists would be a true statement if it was the case that nothing existed. That statement would be logical and not self-contradictory.

So my dog IS, I think you ARE, I IS, God always IS, WAS, and evermore SHALL BE.
Are we all the same? Separate?

No, we are all independent and unique beings. God is a unique being, I am a unique being, your dog is a unique being.

What is reality without GOD? Isn't it God who makes everything REAL because He is in Truth REAL HIMSELF?

I think we have established now that without God there would be no reality, because without God there would be nothing. But because God exists, reality has always existed. God is real, and reality describes those things that have actual existence. So long as there is existence, there is reality.

So God exists WITHIN Reality? It a good thing for God that this reality exists, else where would He go. Is Reality the first cause of God? I'm very confused!

I think your hangup is that you're picturing reality as something that can contain God or limit God's power. To associate the two would be a categorical mistake. God is omnipotent. Reality is not a thing that is created or destroyed.

We live in the same reality of God?

Yes, we absolutely live in the same reality as God. Are we as knowledgeable as God? Absolutely not. We are limited, God is omniscient. God's knowledge of reality - of the things that are real and not imaginary is infinite. Nothing surprises God, and He even somehow has perfect foreknowledge. God has a perfect grasp of reality. We do not. We can be wrong about many things. Our perception of reality is often skewed.

I can say all of the things that I just said because there is only one reality. The only reason you can tell someone that they are wrong about something they believe is if there is only one reality. For everything that is true corresponds to reality. That is why we are able to tell people that they are wrong. Reality is not unique to each individual. There are absolutes, and reality exists independent of our perceptions.

Getting past that paradox further down your track of reasoning do we have a non-contingent reality and a contingent reality that are one in the same?

I never said we have a non-contingent reality and a contingent reality. I think that statement is non-sensical. We have reality. God exists as a non-contingent being. This is true. It is actual and not fiction. I am a contingent being. This is true. It is actual and not fiction.

What you have yet to do is demonstrate based upon the definition of reality how multiple realities can be a real thing. As of now, it sounds like nothing more than a married bachelor.

 

[John 1720]

I agree that what comes from nothing is nothing. Something cannot come from nothing. You and I agree that what has always been there is God. Therefore, if God did not exist, then nothing would exist.

CARM has a definition of reality that certainly agrees with the definition we've been using, but also, I think, clarifies the definition. Let me know if you agree with it:

1. Reality is the state or condition of having actual existence, of being real.
2. In philosophy, it is the position that things exist independent of the ideas used to describe them.
3. That which is real is not fictional, is not imaginary, etc

• Given that understanding of the term reality, then if nothing existed, then there would be no reality. I am willing to grant that.
• Again, according to CARM (I'm using CARM because I think it's a source where we have a lot of agreement) they give a broad definition of truth as:

Truth is a statement that accurately reflects reality, logic, and/or morality. That which is true cannot be self-contradictory.

If you can agree with this, then the statement that it is true that nothing exists would be a true statement if it was the case that nothing existed. That statement would be logical and not self-contradictory.

Hi SPF
I like CARM and mostly agree but believe it is an inferior definition because of its circular language Reality is .... being real. They also use state or condition instead of quality of state but agree on reality being actual. Being True is sort of left out of the equation with actual left to supplant both.

• Reality is the quality of state or being actual or true in objective existence."
• Reality is the state or condition of having actual existence, of being real.

No, we are all independent and unique beings. God is a unique being, I am a unique being, your dog is a unique being.

I think we have established now that without God there would be no reality, because without God there would be nothing. But because God exists, reality has always existed. God is real, and reality describes those things that have actual existence. So long as there is existence, there is reality.

Yes, God is eternal and has always existed and hence reality has always been because in Truth God has always existed. Yet you don't see that if God was NOT true Reality would not exist either. You can't have a Reality without Truth or without God truly existing. Nothing is reality is an oxymoron and self contradictory statement. So my premise that Truth is the cause of Reality and God is Truth amongst God is Love, God is thrice Holy, God is Life (existence) all makes for Reality, which is derived from these statements. Do you understand what I am saying? Reality has dependent variables those dependent variables are contingent on the God of Truth existing!

1. I think your hangup is that you're picturing reality as something that can contain God or limit God's power. To associate the two would be a categorical mistake. God is omnipotent.
2. Reality is not a thing that is created or destroyed.

1. My hangup? Really? Let's forget your unfounded prejudice. I never said "reality" limits God but rather, as I restated above, reality is dependent on God Himself being the God of Truth and infinitely existent. If anything your saying God is within reality makes God subordinate to reality. Nothing could be further from the Truth of God!
2. Reality is not a thing created or destroyed is your own postulate. Sound a bit like the law of conservation of matter and energy. But you making reality independent of God and truth be told reality exists only because GOD in fact does in Truth Exist. I've said this many times. Take God out of the equation and there is no reality because there is nothing and from nothing, nothing comes! Nothing has no existence associated with it, hence it is NOT real; just like the universe prior to the beginning was NOT real and time itself was not real; for God is a timeless Being.

1. Yes, we absolutely live in the same reality as God.
2. Are we as knowledgeable as God? Absolutely not.
3. We are limited, God is omniscient.
4. God's knowledge of reality - of the things that are real and not imaginary is infinite.
5. Nothing surprises God, and He even somehow has perfect foreknowledge. God has a perfect grasp of reality.
6. We do not. We can be wrong about many things. Our perception of reality is often skewed.

You don't see these are self contradictory statements?

1. Really? Do you have the same "Quality of State" as God? Are you an infinite being? Or is the created reality God subjected you to somehow different from the Reality that God is; therefore He is the ultimate Reality - because His existence and being the God of Truth defines reality and reality is not enough to define Him?
2. Agree
3. Agree
4. God's knowledge of reality? God Is - that is reality. There is no reality without God, not His nor our own. Reality is dependent on God's Being. He isn't out there seeing what reality is. He is omniscient He Alone is all knowledge, truth, and Being which defines the first postulate you agreed with but now want to shorten for some motive.
5. God doesn't grasp reality. He is reality because He is the God of Truth and He in and of Himself is eternally existent. Without God as the independent constant there is no reality. He defines what reality is as Himself and defines a subordinate and temporal reality for us, which is a Way through Jesus Christ our Lord.
6. Of course we can be wrong but saying God is real is a truth a google-plex of lies cannot alter.

1. I can say all of the things that I just said because there is only one reality.
2. The only reason you can tell someone that they are wrong about something they believe is if there is only one reality.
3. For everything that is true corresponds to reality.
4. That is why we are able to tell people that they are wrong.
5. Reality is not unique to each individual. There are absolutes, and reality exists independent of our perceptions.

1. That's a postulate you make without support.
2. No, I believe the reality of God is not equivalent to the reality of the temporal universe, which God Himself subjected to frustration. Eternal reality is not subject to it. There is no frustration in God's reality and there certainly is in ours. I do believe the temporal universe was created to produce an outcome that will, over the course of time, alter the reality of the present universe. I also believe that the present universe, which is subject to entropy, will be destroyed. I also believe God will create a new universe that is not subject to the physics of the present universe and thus death is destroyed (Do you believe death is real?) This new universe will not be eternal because it follows time but it shall be everlasting. Our reality is dependent upon God who created it. God does not depend upon eternal reality. He is the eternal truth and is I Am (always existent, hence God is the eternal reality pure and simple.
3. Rather reality correspond to Truth, as the postulate states.
4. We are able to expose falsehood because truth does exist, even in the temporal world. Jesus, Himself, proclaimed He was the Truth, not just the Way and the Life. We destroy arguments that aren't true with the help of God who provides the gift of reason to humankind. Can we use reason without Him? Yes, many have attributed their reason to themselves but they shall all be found false in the judgment for denying Truth Itself.
5. It's a whole lot more than just perception. Take death for example in the quality state of our existence and in truth (small t) it is part of our reality.

I never said we have a non-contingent reality and a contingent reality. I think that statement is non-sensical. We have reality. God exists as a non-contingent being. This is true. It is actual and not fiction. I am a contingent being. This is true. It is actual and not fiction.

• No you didn't but I believe you infer they are one in the same reality because reality is not dependent upon God. But actually God's reality, as it relates to His quality state of being - part of the definition, is vastly different than our "quality of state" and being. You seem to chalk this up to mere experience but I believe other things you have said about the nature of God and the nature of Human Beings suggest you too see God's quality of state and Being vastly different than ours. It is not just His experience that differs from us but God has an entirely different reality for how can our finite state, as defined by our reality, be likened to God's Eternal state of being? Isaiah 55:9
• That's not just experience it is the defining state of two realities; one the reality of God and the other a dependent or contingent reality. After all we had agreed upon the definition inclusion of "state of being" as inclusive to reality. You infer it is an experiential difference only but show no supporting evidence to back up your claim as stated below.

• You are correct that God's experience of reality is vastly different than our experience of reality. But that doesn't follow that there are multiple realities. Just as in reality it's sunny for me, and in reality, it's rainy for you - only one reality, just a different experience of it.

↑Really? What about Quality of State - When did God begin?

1. Come on John, really? God is NOT a contingent being. Indeed, God is the only non-contingent being.
2. On a side note, I think William Lane Craig does a great job with the Kalam Cosmological Argument.

1. Exactly! And that is not an experience! It is a Quality of God's State of Being that we are not even close to in our state of being (State of being does NOT equal Experience)
2. I agree he does a pretty good job but this is to the detriment of your argument.

1. Time is primarily a measurement. It measures change and duration. It's interesting that when you ask someone who believes that time is a created thing when God created time, they seem to indicate that God created time at the same "moment" that God created the first contingent thing. This would make sense, because once something contingent was created, ie - something with a beginning, we then became able to measure it's duration.
2. But time itself will never go away. So long as there is contingent existence, time will be measurable.
3. You want me to provide evidence for this: I don't think you can actually have contingent existence without time. Time is primarily a measurement. It measures change and duration. Every single contingent thing in existence can be measured with time, for every single contingent thing in existence has a set beginning.

1. Time will be measured according to whom? Because time is a relative measurement not an absolute or linear measurement, as you seem to suggest.
2. Your proof that time will not go away please? I already provided God intends to end the former universe, which time is a part of. And William Lane Craig states to your detriment that before the universe existed the first cause, God, had to be a timeless being. So if he and I agree that there is no time and time itself is a property of the physical universe and God destroys the first universe then how can you make such an arbitrary statement based on this evidence that time will never go away. By what means did you draw that conclusion????

What you have yet to do is demonstrate based upon the definition of reality how multiple realities can be a real thing. As of now, it sounds like nothing more than a married bachelor.

The cute stuff isn't working and just getting old. I assume the above is just another fruitless attempt at square circle that is entirely pointless to the discussion. Ball's in your court brother.
John 17:20

 

[SPF]

God is eternal and has always existed and hence reality has always been because in Truth God has always existed.

I completely agree. Because God is eternal, reality has always existed. But don't you see that this demonstrates that reality is not a created thing? God never created reality, because reality is not a thing to be created.

Yet you don't see that if God was NOT true Reality would not exist either. You can't have a Reality without Truth or without God truly existing.

I'm not really sure why you said that I don't see that if God was not true (do you mean exists?) that reality would not exist either. I flatly said, in the paragraph you quoted that "I think we have established now that without God there would be no reality, because without God there would be nothing" So I agree with the idea that in order for there to be reality there has to be something real.

So my premise that Truth is the cause of Reality and God is Truth

Now this doesn't make any sense at all. Especially given the definition of truth, which is "That which corresponds to reality." Truth is also not something that was created. True statements simply describe reality. Truth cannot cause anything. That's a categorical mistake.

reality is dependent on God Himself being the God of Truth and infinitely existent.

I agree insofar as I agree that God exists and the universe exists because God created it. We agree that without God nothing would exist, and if nothing exists then there would be no reality. So in our paradigm there is reality because God is.

If anything your saying God is within reality makes God subordinate to reality. Nothing could be further from the Truth of God!

That's not what I'm saying at all. Nobody is "subordinate" to reality. I think that's a categorical mistake and your assigning properties to reality that are illogical. All reality does is describe that which exists. It's not possible for anyone to be subordinate to reality.

Take God out of the equation and there is no reality because there is nothing and from nothing, nothing comes! Nothing has no existence associated with it, hence it is NOT real; just like the universe prior to the beginning was NOT real and time itself was not real; for God is a timeless Being.

Yes, I have acknowledged multiple times now that we both agree that reality exists because God exists. Reality exists if anything exists. And because God has always existed, so reality has always existed.

Do you have the same "Quality of State" as God? Are you an infinite being? Or is the created reality God subjected you to somehow different from the Reality that God is; therefore He is the ultimate Reality - because His existence and being the God of Truth defines reality and reality is not enough to define Him?

You've asked that question a number of times in a number of ways. And the answer has always been no. I am a unique individual, you are a unique individual, your dog is a unique individual, and God is a unique individual. But all of us exist. I simply don't see where or how you've supported this idea that there are multiple realities. I don't see how the definition of reality allows for multiple realities. My existence on earth as a physical/spiritual being is certainly different than God's existence. Your dog's existence is certainly different than your existence. And a mosquito's existence is certainly different than your dog's existence. But we are all real beings. We have different attributes, but we all equally exist. So we can make true statements about each being. Suggesting multiple realities just doesn't make sense to me.

God's knowledge of reality? God Is - that is reality. There is no reality without God, not His nor our own. Reality is dependent on God's Being. He isn't out there seeing what reality is. He is omniscient He Alone is all knowledge, truth

Sure, there is no reality without God in-so-far as we agree that God is the author of creation. Again, all reality is, is a description of what is actual and true. God, as an omnipotent and omniscient being understands and knows all that is reality, and as an omnipotent being can essentially determine what reality looks like because He can bring anything He wants into existence, and remove anything he wants from existence.

God doesn't grasp reality. He is reality because He is the God of Truth and He in and of Himself is eternally existent. Without God as the independent constant there is no reality. He defines what reality is as Himself and defines a subordinate and temporal reality for us

Saying "God is reality" doesn't make any sense to me. It is true that the tree outside my office window exists. It exists independently of what I think. It is a real tree. Is God that tree? I don't think so, we aren't pantheists. God has perfect knowledge of all things that are real and true because He is omniscient. God has complete control over all that is real because He is omnipotent.

Rather reality correspond to Truth

That doesn't make sense nor does it work with either definition. Truth is that which corresponds to reality. You have it backwards. If you disagree, what definition of truth do you think we should use?

It is a Quality of God's State of Being that we are not even close to in our state of being

You are correct that God's being is vastly different than ours. It is also correct that an ants being is vastly different than ours. Those two statements are true, they reflect reality. God's existence being eternal and mine being temporal does not somehow create multiple realities.

Your proof that time will not go away please?

Time insofar as it serves as a measurement of change/duration will never go away, because so long as there is contingent existence it is possible to measure that objects change/duration. Meaning, we created seconds, minutes, and hours as a way to measure duration. So when you have a contingent thing existing, you can measure how long it has existed. Or, if that contingent thing moves, or does anything, those movements, thoughts, actions all have a beginning, and you can measure that. There's no reason to suggest that after Christ returns and redeems and renews all things that I won't be able to say, "It's been five hundred thousand years since Christ returned, and it's only going to get better!"

John, the bottom line for me is that I simply am not persuaded by anything you've said to think that there can be such a thing as multiple realities. The definition of reality tells me that reality is simply the state or condition of something actually existing. What about that entails multiple realities? Why cannot everything that is real and exists simply be reality?

 

[John 1720]

I completely agree. Because God is eternal, reality has always existed. But don't you see that this demonstrates that reality is not a created thing? God never created reality, because reality is not a thing to be created.

I'm not really sure why you said that I don't see that if God was not true (do you mean exists?) that reality would not exist either. I flatly said, in the paragraph you quoted that "I think we have established now that without God there would be no reality, because without God there would be nothing" So I agree with the idea that in order for there to be reality there has to be something real.

I said that because you don't appear to see the connection that "Reality" as you define it depends on God and NOT the other way around. There simply is no reality without God so why do you keep saying God is in reality? God is the first cause of reality in the time domain but in the eternal perspective reality always was because He always was or rather better defined by Him, "I AM",; I exist and am existence and there is no existence without me.

• John 1720 said: ↑So my premise that Truth is the cause of Reality and God is Truth

Now this doesn't make any sense at all. Especially given the definition of truth, which is "That which corresponds to reality." Truth is also not something that was created. True statements simply describe reality. Truth cannot cause anything. That's a categorical mistake.

Ah but although they are two sides of the same coin. We have Reality also being defined as

• The quality of state or being actual or true in objective existence. It is independent of thought or language; the state of one's existence.

See the dependency of reality on Truth? Which came first the chicken or the egg? Without actually being true there is no reality. I could assert that Lilliput is a real place but, since it is not true, it does not exist in reality. But I can say that GOD is TRUE and HE truly EXISTS, therefore Reality IS because GOD is and GOD is TRUE.

• John 1720 said: ↑reality is dependent on God Himself being the God of Truth and infinitely existent.

I agree insofar as I agree that God exists and the universe exists because God created it. We agree that without God nothing would exist, and if nothing exists then there would be no reality. So in our paradigm there is reality because God is.

He is also the God of Truth, as I posted before

Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, His work is perfect; For all His ways are justice, A God of truth and without injustice; Righteous and upright is He.
Psa 31:5 Into Your hand I commit my spirit; You have redeemed me, O LORD God of truth.
Isa 65:16 So that he who blesses himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; And he who swears in the earth shall swear by the God of truth;
Because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hidden from My eyes.
With respect to fallen, unrepentant, unregenerated humanity they exchange truth for a lie - a fantasy or something outside Reality that was and is but is not because He is a liar and there is no truth in Him. Rev 17:8 Rev 17:1
Rom 1:25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Rom 2:2 But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things.

Without Truth there is no reality for reality is found in GOD alone - there simply is none without Him. He is the ultimately TRUTH and there is no falsity within Him and because HE IS TRUE then it follows that HE in Himself is the ultimate Reality.

• John 1720 said: ↑If anything your saying God is within reality makes God subordinate to reality. Nothing could be further from the Truth of God!

That's not what I'm saying at all. Nobody is "subordinate" to reality. I think that's a categorical mistake and your assigning properties to reality that are illogical. All reality does is describe that which exists. It's not possible for anyone to be subordinate to reality.

Not quite sure what you mean when you say: "All reality does is describe that which exists". I didn't assign properties to reality. You bought into the fact that truth is a necessary prerequisite for Reality in the definition.

TBC

 

[SPF]

I said that because you don't appear to see the connection that "Reality" as you define it depends on God and NOT the other way around. There simply is no reality without God so why do you keep saying God is in reality?

There is no reality without God because without God there would be no existence, and something has to exist for there to be reality. Reality is not a thing. It was not created by God. Reality exists so long as there is existence. So sure, reality "depends" on God in the sense that without God there would be no reality.

He is also the God of Truth, as I posted before

Honestly, this sounds like nonsense Christian jargon. God certainly only speaks truth, He does not lie. I'm not sure what "God of Truth" actually means though other than to say that everything God/Jesus/Spirit said/did/does is true.

Without Truth there is no reality for reality is found in GOD alone - there simply is none without Him. He is the ultimately TRUTH and there is no falsity within Him and because HE IS TRUE then it follows that HE in Himself is the ultimate Reality.

Again, I simply don't know what you mean by reality is found in GOD alone. That makes no sense to me. Reality exists so long as there is existence. God, as the author of the universe certainly decided what would be real, and He, as an omnipotent being has the power to create/destroy anything, so He has complete control over how reality looks.

But again, using terms like "ultimate reality" don't have any meaning to me yet as you have still not explained how based upon the definition one can have multiple realities.

See the dependency of reality on Truth? Which came first the chicken or the egg? Without actually being true there is no reality.

No, I don't see the dependency of reality on truth. And why do you keep capitalizing truth? Is there a difference between Truth and truth? Do they have separate definitions?

A statement that is true is a statement that corresponds to reality. God exists. That is an example of a truth claim. God does not exist. That is another, and contradicting truth claim. The reason we can say that one is true and one is false is because in reality, either God exists or does not exist. He cannot both exist and not exist. So the truthfulness of the statement that God exists is based entirely upon whether or not in reality God actually exists.

The reason that we can say that something is true or false is because we believe we correctly understand reality. You and I believe we correctly understand that in reality God exists. The atheist believes they correctly understand reality in that God does not exist. One of us is right and one of us is wrong. The truthfulness of the statements made by either is not based upon our belief, but it is based upon whether or not it is actual that God exists or not. What is the reality of whether or not God exists? That determines the truthfulness of the truth claim.

Once again I'll ask - can you explain to me how based upon the definition of reality it is possible to have multiple realities? It doesn't make sense to me.

Reality is the state or condition of having actual existence, of being real. In philosophy, it is the position that things exist independent of the ideas used to describe them. That which is real is not fictional, is not imaginary, etc.

I don't see any reason why I should think that because different creatures have different qualities and attributes that make them up that it would therefore cause different realities. There was a "time" in which only God existed. So we could say that the reality was that only God existed. Then God created the universe, so reality was that an eternal God existed and so did the universe He created. It was true that God existed and was a Maximally Great Being and that He created a contingent universe filled with contingent life. I don't see any room for the idea that there are multiple realities. You certainly haven't said anything convincing or logically that would support that premise. I'm still waiting.

 

[John 1720]

There is no reality without God because without God there would be no existence, and something has to exist for there to be reality. Reality is not a thing. It was not created by God. Reality exists so long as there is existence. So sure, reality "depends" on God in the sense that without God there would be no reality.

Reality is substantive as the definition suggests:

• The quality of state or being actual or true in objective existence. It is independent of thought or language; the state of one's existence.

It is NOT a definition change as you posted which ignores the definition you initially accepted (many times I might add)

• All reality does is describe that which exists

It cannot be the substantive state of one's existence and then be, totality or all, only a description. That would be a contradiction of terms with respect to what both of us have already said was true of reality. Reality therefore is not simply a description. Although you can describe the quality of one's existence "Reality" IS in Truth the quality of one's state in a real existence.

Nobody is "subordinate" to reality. I think that's a categorical mistake and your assigning properties to reality that are illogical. All reality does is describe that which exists. It's not possible for anyone to be subordinate to reality.
Honestly, this sounds like nonsense Christian jargon. God certainly only speaks truth, He does not lie. I'm not sure what "God of Truth" actually means though other than to say that everything God/Jesus/Spirit said/did/does is true.

I did NOT assign properties to reality - the definition did and you approved the definition. You cannot keep changing the definition of reality just to suit your narrative; that is called flip flopping. An argument with integrity must stand or fall on what you originally agreed from the beginning was a proper definition. Your suddenly defining that REALITY is merely only a description of wht exists ignores the original basis of reality you accepted. Now that the square . Of course we are subordinate to our reality otherwise we would be able to change our "STATE of BEING" by ourselves. Only God can change our QUALITY STATE OF BEING IN TRUTH.

Again, I simply don't know what you mean by reality is found in GOD alone. That makes no sense to me. Reality exists so long as there is existence. God, as the author of the universe certainly decided what would be real, and He, as an omnipotent being has the power to create/destroy anything, so He has complete control over how reality looks.

Do you consider yourself to be IN Christ like Paul does? Although I live in this corruptible body that is wasting away day by day my life is really hidden in Christ who gave His life for mine. That is my state of being in this present world. I recognize my true reality is in Christ by faith.

• Gal 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
• Rom 6:11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
• Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life inChrist Jesus our Lord.
• But again, using terms like "ultimate reality" don't have any meaning to me yet as you have still not explained how based upon the definition one can have multiple realities.
• Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
• Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
• Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

No, I don't see the dependency of reality on truth. And why do you keep capitalizing truth? Is there a difference between Truth and truth? Do they have separate definitions?

For emphasis, because the TRUTH of GOD is much greater than our concept of truth, which is deravative truths or integrals of the TRUTH. Without a TRUTH you do not have a reality. If GOD were not TRUE there would be no realities. Do the math! It's in the agreed upon definition.

A statement that is true is a statement that corresponds to reality. God exists. That is an example of a truth claim. God does not exist. That is another, and contradicting truth claim. The reason we can say that one is true and one is false is because in reality, either God exists or does not exist. He cannot both exist and not exist. So the truthfulness of the statement that God exists is based entirely upon whether or not in reality God actually exists.

You know better than this. Without God being TRUE nothing exists! You are talinking through both sides of your mouth when you say IN REALITY EITHER GOD EXISTS OR DOES NOT EXIST. Again do the math.

The reason that we can say that something is true or false is because we believe we correctly understand reality. You and I believe we correctly understand that in reality God exists. The atheist believes they correctly understand reality in that God does not exist. One of us is right and one of us is wrong. The truthfulness of the statements made by either is not based upon our belief, but it is based upon whether or not it is actual that God exists or not. What is the reality of whether or not God exists? That determines the truthfulness of the truth claim.

Hogwash! We can say something is true becuse we believe we correctly understand reality? God shows us what is true and what is not we can think what we like but that does not make something true nor does it make it real. Man proposes but God disposes.

Once again I'll ask - can you explain to me how based upon the definition of reality it is possible to have multiple realities? It doesn't make sense to me.

I have already told you a dozen times or more God's reality, Quality State of Being, eternal existence IS NOT your temporal reality; THAT IS NOT EXPERIENCE IT IS THE QUALITY STATE OF HIS BEING vs YOURS.

Reality is the state or condition of having actual existence, of being real. In philosophy, it is the position that things exist independent of the ideas used to describe them. That which is real is not fictional, is not imaginary, etc.

Not as good becaue of the circular definition. Reality is real - no kidding! Why are you suddenly pushing this when you agreed to the original?

1. I don't see any reason why I should think that because different creatures have different qualities and attributes that make them up that it would therefore cause different realities.
2. There was a "time" in which only God existed. So we could say that the reality was that only God existed.
3. Then God created the universe, so reality was that an eternal God existed and so did the universe He created.
4. It was true that God existed and was a Maximally Great Being and that He created a contingent universe filled with contingent life.
5. I don't see any room for the idea that there are multiple realities. You certainly haven't said anything convincing or logically that would support that premise. I'm still waiting.

1. Not just different qualities but DIFFERENT STATES OF BEING, which is part of the definition.
2. YES, I agree.
3. Yes, they both existed but the current Universe is subject to frustration entrophy. ITS QUALITY STATE OF BEING is not EQUAL TO GOD; Hence existence in the Universe does not EQUAL the existence of GOD - They are two different realities.
4. YES
5. Your correct you do not see it. Go back and do the math! It's there!!!