What is the truth?

[Tinker Grey]

I think it is something sort of inexplicable. It is something known with the heart- not just the head.

I guess it is sort of like falling in love. Before you fall in love, you know intellectually what it is all about, you believe it is true- but it is an abstract construct until you actually experience it for yourself.

What does it mean to you to say that something is known with the heart? I don't think you mean this literally. As far as I know, the literal heart is a muscle that pumps blood. All knowing is done with the brain--the head. So what is it you mean here? Some sort of emotional response rather than an intellectual one?

 

[redblue22]

Whatever is, is. Whatever is not, is not.

.

 

[SPF]

Truth is that which corresponds to reality.

This is 100% compatible with Christianity.

The external world exists. God either exists in reality or He does not. My belief about whether or not God exists does not alter the reality of whether or not God exists.

God exists. That statement is a truth-claim. It is either true or false. It cannot be both. I may say that it is a true truth-claim, while another may say that it is a false truth-claim. But in reality, regardless of what either of us think, either God exists or God does not exist.

Truth is that which corresponds to reality.

I personally believe that the Bible teaches Truth, and that what it teaches corresponds to reality. I believe that Jesus actually, in reality, was born of a virgin and paid the penalty for my sin. I could be wrong, but I believe that corresponds with reality, along with everything else in Scripture, and therefore, as I agree with Scripture that I'm a sinner and that it is only through Christ that I can be forgiven - I am putting my faith in Christ. My faith is in Christ because I believe the Biblical narrative corresponds to reality.

The atheist does not agree with me about most everything in the above paragraph. They don't believe those things about Jesus correspond to reality.

But we can both agree that what is true does correspond to reality. We just can't be 100% sure we know exactly what always does or does not correspond to reality.

 

[Gene Parmesan]

Truth is that which corresponds to reality.

This is 100% compatible with Christianity.

The external world exists. God either exists in reality or He does not. My belief about whether or not God exists does not alter the reality of whether or not God exists.

God exists. That statement is a truth-claim. It is either true or false. It cannot be both. I may say that it is a true truth-claim, while another may say that it is a false truth-claim. But in reality, regardless of what either of us think, either God exists or God does not exist.

Truth is that which corresponds to reality.

I personally believe that the Bible teaches Truth, and that what it teaches corresponds to reality. I believe that Jesus actually, in reality, was born of a virgin and paid the penalty for my sin. I could be wrong, but I believe that corresponds with reality, along with everything else in Scripture, and therefore, as I agree with Scripture that I'm a sinner and that it is only through Christ that I can be forgiven - I am putting my faith in Christ. My faith is in Christ because I believe the Biblical narrative corresponds to reality.

The atheist does not agree with me about most everything in the above paragraph. They don't believe those things about Jesus correspond to reality.

But we can both agree that what is true does correspond to reality. We just can't be 100% sure we know exactly what always does or does not correspond to reality.

You're right in that I don't agree with your conclusions about the Bible, but I do agree with the rest. That was very well said. The whole post actually looks like something I would have typed up about two years ago, to be honest.

 

[SPF]

Gene, it's me.. or you rather.. from 2 years ago. I've come here to tell you that Jesus does love you and wants you back. Don't ask me why I came to the forum and made a few hundred posts that had nothing to do with you, or why I didn't actually show up to you in person, that's not important!

 

[Gene Parmesan]

Gene, it's me.. or you rather.. from 2 years ago. I've come here to tell you that Jesus does love you and wants you back. Don't ask me why I came to the forum and made a few hundred posts that had nothing to do with you, or why I didn't actually show up to you in person, that's not important!

It's me! I have something important to tell you/me:

 

[brinny]

Let me try:

I don't post much on the forums these days. And I change my username a lot.

-TheoryofForms

I changes me avatar a lot.

 

[brinny]

It's me! I have something important to tell you/me:

It's "Assistant TO The Regional Manager".

 

[SPF]

It's me! I have something important to tell you/me:

If that doesn't deserve the winner badge, then nothing on this forum deserves the winner badge.

 

[John 1720]

Dear Freodin,
You seem to making these unending self-proclaimed accusations that I do not understand you but I see your assertions are clearly out of context. May I suggest that the postulates I have proposed may be much clearer to independent review than to you. I'm content to leave them as they are and for the independent readers on the forum to assess them for themselves. I would also suggest to you that the conversation is going nowhere because you persist and nit over statements I made twisting the meaning into something that it is not. I am sorry if this offends you but I've no wish or obligation to keep explaining myself to someone who believes they alone are the judge and jury of the debate. If you believe you have made a reasoned approach and I believe I have made a reasoned debate then the posts can speak for themselves. I will continue to state and believe that Truth defines Reality and not the other way around. I would further postulate that reality is multifaceted according to the perspective of the observer. The Truth and whether one follows the truth or not is causal to one's reality. All this is premised on the condition that we truly exist. I would agree that Christians can speak of God as the ultimate Reality but we can also state He is the ultimate Truth as well.

That said I believe the larger issue that conflates the debate between the philosophical position between Reality and Truth is at its heart the atheist worldview vs the Christian or Theist worldview.

In spite of your claim, your nice explanation (thank you, but I was already aware of this. Most atheists know quite well what they disagree with) shows that you do not understand my point.

And it is quite simple.

This is what you said before:
"... in the Atheistic Worldview one would assume the reality after death is non existence and you would be transformed into nothingness, the void, nihlo. However, that’s not what we see in the universe with regard to the physical. Matter and energy can be transformed but not destroyed. Matter may become energy and energy matter but it doesn’t become nothing."
and
"They believe that is the final reality and hence disregard the truth before them. Truth be told It is a principle which even contradicts the naturals laws of Physics which states that 'Energy can neither be created nor destroyed rather it can only be transformed from one form to another.'” (taken from your posts #151 and #152)

This is what I adressed. This, and nothing else.
Paraphrased, you claim that the "atheistic" position of the non-existence of the "self" (or life, or awareness, consciousness or whatever you may call it) contradicts a scientific principle. You made this claim twice.

FYI - I did not state that "Atheistic belief directly contradicts a scientific principle" The correct context here is that Atheism makes assumptions against a principle of life after death, which Christian have heralded in the claims of our eternal reality. (e.g. We believe our mortal bodies will undergo a physical transformation which will provide us a body not unlike the resurrected Christ.) The key word above is "principal"; the principal with respect to atheistic beliefs, does not have a natural precedent to support their analogy where a Christianity does. Nobody made explicit claims that the law of conservation of both energy/matter contained in modern physics proves Christianity, although you may have interpreted it that way. Christian do not only deal with the physical realm but necessarily we believe we are tripartite body. soul and spirit. Obviously there is not a physical model for the soul and spirit but other analogies might be made as I did for transformation. Jesus did that as well. The fact that annihilation does not have physical component that expresses a natural phenomena then is a negative. I'm not saying it negates that postulate but it does indeed make the concept one that is not as strong a postulate then the Christian claim of transformation. That may seem to be a subtle point but using analogiies in order to make a point is something science has done all the time in order to advance itself. I will add this is also something Jesus did as well. He spoke didactically using parables to people all the time.

I have definitely heard atheists express the annihilation viewpoint, even although you stated I was way of base. You responded with your own analogy of taking a sledgehammer to a piano stating that as a better example of Athiesm; to which I stated it wasn't. I stated that because basically all the materials to rebuild the piano are still there - there is not even a need for transformation in your example. It would simply be an integration by parts. An expert craftsman could rebuild it by the reuse of the existing materials. God of course would be such a master craftsman, even if one only considers that as a possible hypothesis. So the sledgehammer is really not a relevant analogy since I was speaking about real transformation not a reconstruction. So, in response to your accusation you really did not have a valid correction and my original claim was indeed true in the context that it was given. The Bible's example of transformation is a true transformation which produces a different reality for us than the temporal reality you and I have in this life.

• 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
• 1 John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

Let's look at some of your other claims you have lodged against me:

1. And in response to my correction, you now claim that this atheistic position contradicts the Christian view of things.
2. I agree with this second claim. But it is irrelevant for your first claim, which is still false.
3. The Christian position on souls is not the scientific principle of energy conservation. Do you understand that?
4. Is this really that difficult?

1. Yes, doesn't it? The atheist position clearly contradicts, and is with odds with, the Christian position of transformation. If it did not we'd hardly be having this debate Not that this is a popularity contest but I think statistically the inverse position would be an extreme outlier on the normal curve of Atheistical opinion.
2. My analogy is not false, rather it is based on a principle that cn be seen in natural law. I never said my belief is that we would be explicitly transformed in the same manner as contained in the Law of the conservation of matter and energy. You have tried to spin it that way, perhaps either by not understanding the context or by hyperbole to suit your narrative
3. I never said it was, in fact I clearly stated it was something different according to the Bible many times over. It would be silly for a Christian to presuppose all there is out there is the physical world or that spiritual things are subject to a temporal physical universe. However just as Christ said behold the lilies of the field or the sparrow there are many things in nature that mimic the supernatural mysteries of God. It's fair to use analogies and stating I made this claim the two are directly related is the height of hyperbole.
4. Context, context, context! If you misunderstand something or feel I didn't explain properly you could have simply used email instead of poisoning the well of good conversational dynamics.

MORE, MORE and MORE responses to what you see as problematic:

Let's take a step back at your last post, and try to understand some of what you wrote here "in the Light of your last post's truth".

1. "Our reality may differ in the Light of God's Truth and as to whether we accept His truths in this world."
2. "Reality", as you had defined it, is "The quality of state or being actual or true in objective existence."
3. So here we have my reality: there is no God. Death is the end to life. Truth is an abstraction.
4. This is actual and true in objective existence. Indepedent of thought or language... (or observation or interpretation). It IS the state of my existence.
5. And we have your reality: God exists. There will be eternal life in a transformed state after death. God is Truth.
6. This also is actual and true in objective existence, independent of thought or language. It IS the state of your existence.
7. These (except for the part in paranthesis) are your words, your terms.
8. But these two "realities" cannot coexist. They contradict each other. It is not possible for God to exist AND not exist, for life to end and go on eternally.
9. And contrary what you said in your definition - that "reality" is objective - "reality" now depends on your acceptence of "His truths"... it is subjective.
10. His whats? I asked you repeatedly to define the way you use the term "truth"... and you never did. You keep throwing it around... and you keep using it in different ways, each of them unexplained.
11. God is Truth? So now our "objective, independent of thought and language actual existence" differs in the Light of God's God, and as to whether we accept His Gods in this world?
12. You are not making any sense. You are even contradicting yourself.
13. When you asked for my definition, I provided it. I explained where and why I disagree with your position. I didn't simply restate my position and declared my disagreement with you.

MY Responses:
1 and 2:
If you recall the context, I stated that the "Reality" of "God alone" was a special case but that I was clearly speaking in my preceding post on Reality with respect to the case of Creation - which is in context with "our reality". Surely you can see the difference. Of course in speaking of God alone we can assume He is the ultimate reality as well as the ultimate Truth but God did not leave things this way, else we would not be having this conversation; for both you and I exist within the mutual reality that we are temporal living human beings. Using my context it is the Truth of God that defines Reality and not vice versa. My claim that Reality is "the quality of state or being actual or true in objective existence." was not my definition but the standard definition: reality - definition and meaning
3. Your postulate not mine
4. You say it is truth but what you have postulated is merely a guess. You are expressing a truism when you stated "in reality there is no such thing as truth". Make up your mind.
5 and 6:
No that is my truth. My reality is I am a temporal living human being. That reality can change at anytime but I believe that God's truth is recorded in the Bible which states and promises that He will transform my reality from a temporal one to an everlasting one.
7. I think 3 & 4 are your statements so how can that be right?
8. Two realities can coexist according to the Word of God. There is the judgment by which the Truth will judge each of us according to the righteousness of God and separate out those going to the reality of perdition and those who know the reality of truly belonging to Christ. These realities are as real, perhaps moreso because they are everlasting, than our present temporal realities of physical life and death.
9. That is what I postulated as being a truth claim yes. A judgment is true if and only if its predicate corresponds to its object (i.e., to the object referred to by the subject term of the judgment. The existence of God is either a true or it is not. Our personal opinion is not going to change whether this is truth or not. Your search for evidence may or may not convince you so we can either reject or acknowledge the claim. However claims about the existence of God, as well as the non-existence of God are equally objective as they are rooted in the object under consideration: Either God exists or He does not. We are on equal ground objectively.
10. I did define truth to you and you even commented on the fact that I stated it was not much different than how Plato defined it.

Plato’s known ideas on truth reflect the view that he held that absolute truth existed. While also claiming he did not know whether or not people would ever be able to discern absolute truth he does imply that God must be a first cause and a self-moved mover otherwise there will be an infinite regression with respect to the causes of causes.
As I stated Jesus said He is the Way, the Truth and the Life; in the flesh incarnate. Being the Word of God from eternity The Gospel of John tells us He was from the eternal not just within the domain of time.

• In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend - John 1:1-5

God therefore is the ultimate Truth, which defines all truth - in fact all truth is God's truth - He is the source of all Truth, as well as love and all that exists. According to His goodness He has given us free will to choose. We have the choice to turn

• Deuteronomy 30:15 "See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil,
• Deuteronomy 30:19-20 "I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; that you may love the LORD your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days

11. I have no idea what you are talking about. It is incoherent to me.
12 & 13
You claim this but honestly I don't see it.

If you cannot do the same, this conversation is going nowhere.

I agree we seem to be on a merry go round that is not very merry for either one of us but I already postulated the force behind our angular momentum is that we're asserting force from two very different perspectives (Atheism & Christianity) upon the axis of Truth vs Reality.

I'm quite happy to just agree to disagree here as continuing the discussion does seem rather pointless to me especially given the misrepresentations of the context of my discussion points.

Cheers to you Freodin

 

[SPF]

MY Responses:
1 and 2:
If you recall the context, I stated that the "Reality" of "God alone" was a special case but that I was clearly speaking in my preceding post on Reality with respect to the case of Creation - which is in context with "our reality". Surely you can see the difference. Of course in speaking of God alone we can assume He is the ultimate reality as well as the ultimate Truth but God did not leave things this way, else we would not be having this conversation; for both you and I exist within the mutual reality that we are temporal living human beings. Using my context it is the Truth of God that defines Reality and not vice versa. My claim that Reality is "the quality of state or being actual or true in objective existence." was not my definition but the standard definition: reality - definition and meaning
3. Your postulate not mine
4. You say it is truth but what you have postulated is merely a guess. You are expressing a truism when you stated "in reality there is no such thing as truth". Make up your mind.
5 and 6:
No that is my truth. My reality is I am a temporal living human being. That reality can change at anytime but I believe that God's truth is recorded in the Bible which states and promises that He will transform my reality from a temporal one to an everlasting one.
7. I think 3 & 4 are your statements so how can that be right?
8. Two realities can coexist according to the Word of God. There is the judgment by which the Truth will judge each of us according to the righteousness of God and separate out those going to the reality of perdition and those who know the reality of truly belonging to Christ. These realities are as real, perhaps moreso because they are everlasting, than our present temporal realities of physical life and death.

I think your usage of the term "reality" does not match with the definition you've provided.

Reality: "the quality of state or being actual or true in objective existence."

I'm perfectly fine with that definition of reality. The problem comes in when you attempt to use the term in saying things such as "He is the ultimate reality" and "you and I exist within the mutual reality" and that "my reality is I am..." and "Two realities can coexist"

The above usages are incompatible with the definition of reality that you provided. Reality simple is the state of existence as it is. My belief about reality has no bearing upon reality.

For instance, my 10 month old may cover his eyes and think that I can't see him because he can't see me. He may truly believe this. But it's not reality. Reality is that I can see him perfectly.

You also confuse the term when you say things like this: "My reality is I am a temporal living human being. That reality can change at anytime but I believe that God's truth is recorded in the Bible which states and promises that He will transform my reality from a temporal one to an everlasting one."

This is true insofar as it is reality that right now you are a temporal living human being. It is also true that when you die, the reality will be that you will be transformed. What you're saying would come across a lot less confusing if you worded it like this:

"Reality is I am a temporal living human being. That can change at anytime because I believe that God's truth is recorded in the Bible which states and promises that He will transform my body from a temporal one to an everlasting one."

I don't see why you are personalizing the term reality. There's no need to, it only confuses things. Reality is simply what we exist in. It is objective, just as the definition you provided states. Being objective means that reality is not defined by what we think, feel, or believe. We can be wrong about reality.

Again, you confuse the term when you say: "Two realities can coexist according to the Word of God. There is the judgment by which the Truth will judge each of us according to the righteousness of God and separate out those going to the reality of perdition and those who know the reality of truly belonging to Christ. These realities are as real, perhaps moreso because they are everlasting, than our present temporal realities of physical life and death."

In reality, there will be judgment when Christ returns. In reality, the people who belong to Christ will spend eternity with Christ, and in reality the people who do not belong to Christ will be separated from Christ. That is true. You only confuse the term and misuse the term by talking about two realities. No, there is only one reality, and in that one reality people either belong to Christ or don't belong to Christ.

 

[John 1720]

I think your usage of the term "reality" does not match with the definition you've provided.

Reality: "the quality of state or being actual or true in objective existence."

I'm perfectly fine with that definition of reality. The problem comes in when you attempt to use the term in saying things such as "He is the ultimate reality" and "you and I exist within the mutual reality" and that "my reality is I am..." and "Two realities can coexist"

The above usages are incompatible with the definition of reality that you provided. Reality simple is the state of existence as it is. My belief about reality has no bearing upon reality.

I don't wish to belabor the point but you may be misunderstanding what I am saying"

1. God exists and before time began He Was the only ultimate reality. He was necessarily infinite Truth as well, in fact there was nothing false before creation - there was only the Godhead.
2. God made a reality of humankind and created us with freewill after His own image. We the caretakers of the earth each experience the reality of creation which did not exist before time.
3. Man was given two choices the way of life or the way of death, the way of everlasting life or the way of eternal corruption.
4. In the finale each of them are real. There is an existence in Christ which is seperate from the existence of perdition. Heaven and hell could not be a more different reality. It not that one is real and the other imagined. They are both real and therefore realities.
5. So God of course is an ultimate reality but He has chosen to give His creation the choice of two seperate and independent relities. It is deterministic that His Truth is the arbiter of both realities.
6. Conclusion Truth supercedes reality and not the other way around. Truth is primary and Jesus' Himself spoke of Truth moreso than reality. I'll be bold and say reality is caused by Truth - especially with regard to the reality of mankind.

Supporting Scripture:
Psa 119:160 The entirety of Your Word is truth, And every one of Your righteous judgments endures forever.

• I believe the capital W applies. Righteous judgments is secondary to the Word, and His word is the delinieater that seperates the innocent from the guilty. Jesus spoke

Jhn 8:32 “And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

• Free from what? Free from the bondage of our present reality of sin and death

Jhn 17:17 "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your Word is truth.

• The Word was eternal pre-existant before time began with the material universe.

Jhn 17:19 “And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.
Luk 8:11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
1Pe 1:22-23
Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the Word of God which lives and abides forever

• It springs up unto eternal life but the Truth in judgment will be what determines our future reality - they are both an everlasting existence but not the same existence/reality.

2Co 3:18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.
2Ti 2:25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

• There is then necessarily a reality between being free and being taken captive, just as there is for being "in the Lord" and being "in the grasp of the devil". Again there could be no greater distinction between the reality of heaven and hell. The Truth of the judgment separates the two great realities of existence.

Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, His work is perfect; For all His ways are justice, A God of truth and without injustice; Righteous and upright is He.
Psa 31:5 Into Your hand I commit my spirit; You have redeemed me, O LORD God of truth.
Isa 65:16 So that he who blesses himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; And he who swears in the earth shall swear by the God of truth;
Because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hidden from My eyes.
Rom 1:25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Rom 2:2 But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things.

For instance, my 10 month old may cover his eyes and think that I can't see him because he can't see me. He may truly believe this. But it's not reality. Reality is that I can see him perfectly.

You also confuse the term when you say things like this: "My reality is I am a temporal living human being. That reality can change at anytime but I believe that God's truth is recorded in the Bible which states and promises that He will transform my reality from a temporal one to an everlasting one."

This is true insofar as it is reality that right now you are a temporal living human being. It is also true that when you die, the reality will be that you will be transformed. What you're saying would come across a lot less confusing if you worded it like this:

"Reality is I am a temporal living human being. That can change at anytime because I believe that God's truth is recorded in the Bible which states and promises that He will transform my body from a temporal one to an everlasting one."

• When we speak of heaven and hell we are not speaking about an imaginary game. Both are very real. Both exist. Both are seperate.
• Yes, sure. There are many ways of stating things. However I wasn't stating that diverse realities are only temporal and everlasting. I was stating that everlasting realities, with respect to mankind, will indeed differ. The reality of existence takes on two forms, as previously stated.

I don't see why you are personalizing the term reality. There's no need to, it only confuses things. Reality is simply what we exist in. It is objective, just as the definition you provided states. Being objective means that reality is not defined by what we think, feel, or believe. We can be wrong about reality.

Again, you confuse the term when you say: "Two realities can coexist according to the Word of God. There is the judgment by which the Truth will judge each of us according to the righteousness of God and separate out those going to the reality of perdition and those who know the reality of truly belonging to Christ. These realities are as real, perhaps moreso because they are everlasting, than our present temporal realities of physical life and death."

In reality, there will be judgment when Christ returns. In reality, the people who belong to Christ will spend eternity with Christ, and in reality the people who do not belong to Christ will be separated from Christ. That is true. You only confuse the term and misuse the term by talking about two realities. No, there is only one reality, and in that one reality people either belong to Christ or don't belong to Christ.

I guess it depends on how you answer the following questions.

1. Do the people in hell not exist?
2. Is their existence not a separate reality for those that share the glory of Christ
3. How can the two objective existences (existing eternally in hell or heaven) be one reality?

“There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
“Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’
“Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’ ”

I surmise Lazarus and the rich man reality of existence are seperated by a great fixed gulf that cannot be crossed.

Lastly I will answer the OP, "What is Truth".
The question was asked by Pilate and the Bible records no words from the mouth of Jesus. But I will say all Jesus had to do was meet Pilate's gaze in order for Him to see that Truth was standing right in front of Him. "I Am" was Christ answer in the simplest of terms and no need for words needed to be expressed. The Truth being the Son of God is identical to the truth that the Father is also Truth.

May God bless
In Christ, Patrick

 

[2PhiloVoid]

What is the truth?
The truth is:

I'm not as funny as I thought I was
I'm not as thin as I used to be
I tell lies even when I think I'm telling the truth
I don't follow the Gospels religiously. Should I?
elusive and maybe it should stay that way
I spend too much time on these forums but what the Hell....
painful sometimes

Truth? Truth is those things that we have finally "nailed down" through a diversity of human efforts.

 

[SPF]

• God exists and before time began He Was the only ultimate reality. He was necessarily infinite Truth as well, in fact there was nothing false before creation - there was only the Godhead.

• God made a reality of humankind and created us with freewill after His own image. We the caretakers of the earth each experience the reality of creation which did not exist before time.

• Man was given two choices the way of life or the way of death, the way of everlasting life or the way of eternal corruption.

• In the finale each of them are real. There is an existence in Christ which is seperate from the existence of perdition. Heaven and hell could not be a more different reality. It not that one is real and the other imagined. They are both real and therefore realities.

• So God of course is an ultimate reality but He has chosen to give His creation the choice of two seperate and independent relities. It is deterministic that His Truth is the arbiter of both realities.

• Conclusion Truth supercedes reality and not the other way around. Truth is primary and Jesus' Himself spoke of Truth moreso than reality. I'll be bold and say reality is caused by Truth - especially with regard to the reality of mankind.

Theologically, we are on the same page. The point of confusion comes in because you're using terms like "ultimate reality", which is redundant and unnecessary. There is no reality that is more real than another reality. There are no degrees of reality. There are no competing realities. Reality simply is. What is, is reality.

Before God created the universe, the reality was that only God existed. Reality changes every instant, and our experience of reality is different. I am experiencing the reality of a nice, sunny day, here in GA. Someone else is unfortunately I'm sure experiencing the reality of a cold, rainy day somewhere on the planet.

You are right that man has two choices, the way of life or the way of death. In the end, in reality, we will either exist with Christ on the New Earth, or we will exist separated from Christ, in the Lake of Fire. That is reality. Each person's experience of reality will be different.

"Conclusion Truth supercedes reality and not the other way around."

The above quote unfortunately is borderline non-sensical. Truth doesn't supersede reality. Reality is not a thing in itself. Reality is simply what is. Truth, therefore, is that which corresponds to reality. In reality, God either exists or does not exist. Thus, if God exists in reality, then it is true that God exists.

Reality is not a thing that God created. Reality is just a description of what is. There was never a "time" in which there was not a reality. Truth is simply a description of what reality is, or what reality will be.

When someone says, "In reality, the sun is hot" They are right. But they would be just as right if they simply said, "The sun is hot"

 

[John 1720]

Theologically, we are on the same page. The point of confusion comes in because you're using terms like "ultimate reality", which is redundant and unnecessary. There is no reality that is more real than another reality. There are no degrees of reality. There are no competing realities. Reality simply is. What is, is reality.

Before God created the universe, the reality was that only God existed. Reality changes every instant, and our experience of reality is different. I am experiencing the reality of a nice, sunny day, here in GA. Someone else is unfortunately I'm sure experiencing the reality of a cold, rainy day somewhere on the planet.

Okay instead of stating "ultimate" perhaps I should have used the word "unchanging".
But further in you neglect the point of existence. I'm not saying if the weather changes I have a separate reality. In your example my existence has not changed. I'm saying existence itself is no longer the same with respect to humankind. When we speak of God alone, He is the same, yesterday, today and forever and there is no shadow of turning. The same is not true for God's creation. If our existence is altered then the component of the equation has changed with respect to reality outcome. It is no longer the same reality.

You are right that man has two choices, the way of life or the way of death. In the end, in reality, we will either exist with Christ on the New Earth, or we will exist separated from Christ, in the Lake of Fire. That is reality. Each person's experience of reality will be different.

May I remind you that you agreed with the following definition:

Reality: "the quality of state or being actual or true in objective existence."

I'm perfectly fine with that definition of reality.

We're not only speaking of experience we are speaking of existence and the quality of their state of existence.

"Conclusion Truth supercedes reality and not the other way around."

The above quote unfortunately is borderline non-sensical. Truth doesn't supersede reality. Reality is not a thing in itself. Reality is simply what is. Truth, therefore, is that which corresponds to reality. In reality, God either exists or does not exist. Thus, if God exists in reality, then it is true that God exists.

Reality is not a thing that God created. Reality is just a description of what is. There was never a "time" in which there was not a reality. Truth is simply a description of what reality is, or what reality will be.

It's not borderline nonsense at all brother. Mankind has two destinies and they are separate destinies. They are not judged by reality they are judged by Truth. You are making postulates to me with no Biblical support. There are many verses that indicate the Truth shall judge us but none that I know of that reality shall judge us. Jesus, whom I believe to be God, said I Am the Way, the Truth and the Life. Not "I Am the Way the Reality and the Life. Stating there was never a time without a reality is superfluous to the argument since of course I believe reality has always existed in time, and before time I might add. "What Is", with respect to existence however is not static or unchangeable with respect to creation.
Again the Bible doesn't say "Truth is simply a description of what reality is or what reality will be." It does have God saying "I Am ... the Truth" as well as the Way and the Life. Your statement also has a provision for a changing reality ("Truth is simply a description of what reality is, or what reality will be.") That does not match the definition for Reality either: the quality of state or being actual or true in objective existence." "What Reality will be", or will become, necessarily implies a state change, which would be a separate reality from the former.

When someone says, "In reality, the sun is hot" They are right. But they would be just as right if they simply said, "The sun is hot"

This misses the point. The state of the sun has not changed and I am not saying that makes for a reality. If, however, I said "the Sun is a star is a reality", it would only be so as long as it exists as long as that remains true. Otherwise perhaps many years from now it might be possible to say "Look at the Sun, it is a supernova spread across the solar system. The truth has made the state of those two realities of its existence "a quality of state of being actual in objective existence.
In Christ, Patrick
John 17:20

 

[bhsmte]

But you neglect the point of existence. I'm not saying if the weather changes I have a separate reality. In your example my existence has not changed. I'm saying existence itself is no longer the same with respect to humankind. When we speak of God alone, He is the same, yesterday, today and forever and there is no shadow of turning. The same is not true for God's creation. If our existence is altered then the component of the equation has changed with respect to reality outcome. It is no longer the same reality.


May I remind you that you agreed with the following definition:

We're not only speaking of experience we are speaking of existence and the quality of their state of existence.

It's not borderline nonsense at all brother. Mankind has two destinies and they are separate destinies. They are not judged by reality they are judged by Truth. You are making postulates to me with no Biblical support. There are many verses that indicate the Truth shall judge us but none that I know of that reality shall judge us. Jesus, whom I believe to be God, said I Am the Way, the Truth and the Life. Not "I Am the Way the Reality and the Life. Stating there was never a time without a reality is superfluous to the argument since of course I believe reality has always existed in time, and before time I might add. "What Is", with respect to existence however is not static or unchangeable with respect to creation.
Again the Bible doesn't say "Truth is simply a description of what reality is or what reality will be." It does have God saying "I Am ... the Truth" as well as the Way and the Life. Your statement also has a provision for a changing reality ("Truth is simply a description of what reality is, or what reality will be.") That does not match the definition for Reality either: the quality of state or being actual or true in objective existence." "What Reality will be", or will become, necessarily implies a state change, which would be a separate reality from the former.

This misses the point. The state of the sun has not changed and I am not saying that makes for a reality. If, however, I said "the Sun is a star is a reality", it would only be so as long as it exists as long as that remains true. Otherwise perhaps many years from now it might be possible to say "Look at the Sun, it is a supernova spread across the solar system. The truth has made the state of those two realities of its existence "a quality of state of being actual in objective existence.
In Christ, Patrick
John 17:20

Do you realize, your long posts are really nothing more than personal opinion? You have yet to demonstrate objectively, it is anything but psrsonal opinion. I dont doubt, you truly believe what you post and it may even be the best thing for you to believe, but it is still your opinion.

 

[Freodin]

Reality is not a thing that God created. Reality is just a description of what is. There was never a "time" in which there was not a reality. Truth is simply a description of what reality is, or what reality will be.

When someone says, "In reality, the sun is hot" They are right. But they would be just as right if they simply said, "The sun is hot"

This misses the point. The state of the sun has not changed and I am not saying that makes for a reality. If, however, I said "the Sun is a star is a reality", it would only be so as long as it exists as long as that remains true. Otherwise perhaps many years from now it might be possible to say "Look at the Sun, it is a supernova spread across the solar system. The truth has made the state of those two realities of its existence "a quality of state of being actual in objective existence.
In Christ, Patrick
John 17:20

I was wondering when this would come up. What you miss here, Patrick, and what SPF gets right (or so I think): "reality" per se isn't temporal.

There never was a time in which there was not reality. And there never will be a time in which there is not reality.

And because the division into different "reality" remains invalid, as much as you want to cling to it, reality itself never changes.
It is perception of reality that changes, interpretation of reality, judgement of reality.

"The sun is a star" and "the sun is a supernova" are both abstractions, relying on a temporal frame that doesn't exist for reality, and relying on a personal reference point as well.

This is another point about "atheists" (well, some of them, like me) that might surprise you: while we might believe in "change" as a temporal effect, we can also believe in eternal existence.

No Christian doctrine can change that for me: whatever may have been, whatever may come, wherever we go... there is nothing that can destroy our existence.

 

[John 1720]

I was wondering when this would come up. What you miss here, Patrick, and what SPF gets right (or so I think): "reality" per se isn't temporal.

There never was a time in which there was not reality. And there never will be a time in which there is not reality.

Clearly Freodin I never stated there was a time in which there was not reality also. I just stated reality is dependent upon Trurh and not vice versa. It is a truism that true statements are not always clearly understood so if SPF agrees with you it changes nothing as I stand by my statement.

And because the division into different "reality" remains invalid, as much as you want to cling to it, reality itself never changes.
It is perception of reality that changes, interpretation of reality, judgement of reality.

So if you say the Sun is a star after it goes supernova that is a reality grounded in existent truth?

"The sun is a star" and "the sun is a supernova" are both abstractions, relying on a temporal frame that doesn't exist for reality, and relying on a personal reference point as well.

I think most astronomers would disagree with your abstract thinking on that one. Maybe you can show me some evidence of why they are abstractions of one another.

This is another point about "atheists" (well, some of them, like me) that might surprise you: while we might believe in "change" as a temporal effect, we can also believe in eternal existence.

Your right! That has not been my experience in speaking to Atheists. Honestly, I find you to be a special case - I mean that in the best terms.

No Christian doctrine can change that for me: whatever may have been, whatever may come, wherever we go... there is nothing that can destroy our existence.

Yes, I believe existence is permanent as well but only because God wills it, as sure as He will the physical universe into being (existence). I'd also agree that doctrine can't change anybody. However, I'm not talking about doctrine or theology - which can absolutely save no one. I'm talking about the person of Jesus Christ and each and everyone's relationship to Him. His Word states that He loves us all, even to death on a cross and that He is patient with us not wanting anyone to die in their sin; for He has made provision for everyone who trusts in Him. Is there something you have against a relationship with Jesus, something He said, did, etc. Was He a meglomaniac, liar or was He truthfully exactly who He said He was; the Son of God, the Way, the Truth and the Life? What have you got to lose by asking Him to show you that He is real? He said, a sinful father knows how to give good gifts to his children and so if sinful people know how to give good gifts to their children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him.” I do the believe the Spirit of God can change anyone, even the worst sinner (which Paul claimed to be chief) to the most skeptical. You seem like a reasoned man. Have you ever tried to reason with God? He asks us to in
Isaiah 1:18 There is no risk in asking Him to show you His Truth and He is far more equipped to do so than by this imperfect servant who is still learning from Him. How I would love to see you a Christian Freodin but I didn't die for you so God even moreso desires you to step and taste that the Lord is Good.
May the Lord Guide, Pat

 

[John 1720]

Do you realize, your long posts are really nothing more than personal opinion? You have yet to demonstrate objectively, it is anything but psrsonal opinion. I dont doubt, you truly believe what you post and it may even be the best thing for you to believe, but it is still your opinion.

No, but I believe this is certainly personal opinion.
May I suggest that you make a reasoned approach that proves everything I said is mere opinion and we can discuss later. Later because for right now I'm headed out the door.I might also add the posts are long because I m receiving lenthy posts with lots of questions. That would seem to be directly proportional to my responses.
How was my length on that one?

 

[Freodin]

Clearly Freodin I never stated there was a time in which there was not reality also. I just stated reality is dependent upon Trurh and not vice versa. It is a truism that true statements are not always clearly understood so if SPF agrees with you it changes nothing as I stand by my statement.

If "reality" is dependend on anything, then there is the option of it not existing. So what would be a state of reality not existing?

And while you have "stated" repeatedly what you believe about the relationship of truth and reality, you have also never answered my repeated requests to define these terms.
Last time I though I had you at least define "reality"... and then you did an about-turn and claimed that this wasn't your definition, only the standard one.

So basically, whenever you tell me that you believe truth defines reality... I have no way of knowing what you are talking about, because you keep evading.

I wonder why.

So if you say the Sun is a star after it goes supernova that is a reality grounded in existent truth?

Stop thinking of reality as a temporal entity. Listen to what I repeatedly told you.
If I say that the sun is a star after it goes supernova, my statement is a "truth", according to the way I consistently used this term here. It describes reality in an abstract form. In this case, it presupposes a certain concept of time, and a certain reference point within that concept. And also in this case, it would be a bad description of reality.

But in reality, the sun is something that encompasses gas cloud, star, super-nova... (well, in real reality our sun is too small to go super-nova. It will be a nova and a white dwarf star after that. Ultimately a black dwarf. Note also the intentional inconsistent usage of "reality" here.)

The reality of that doesn't change. It is our perception, and thus our statements, that change.

I think most astronomers would disagree with your abstract thinking on that one. Maybe you can show me some evidence of why they are abstractions of one another.

Does the reality of our sun now being our sun change after it expands? Does the statement in an astronomical book "Our sun is a G2V main-sequence star." suddenly become false after the expansion?

Or would you have to admit that the context of this literal statement needs to be considered... thus, that it is not a literal, precise description of reality, but just an abstraction?

Your right! That has not been my experience in speaking to Atheists. Honestly, I find you to be a special case - I mean that in the best terms.

I'm not at all special. Most likely, you didn't ask the right questions. Or, even more likely, you didn't ask any questions, because you believe you already "understand" it.

Yes, I believe existence is permanent as well but only because God wills it, as sure as He will the physical universe into being (existence).

I fear a massive case of special pleading incomming...
Existence being permanent has to mean that it cannot be dependent on anything. If existence is only permanent because God wills it... that God could end existence (all existence, not only his own), but stopping to "will" it. That is not what I would call "permanent".

I'd also agree that doctrine can't change anybody.
However, I'm not talking about doctrine or theology - which can absolutely save no one. I'm talking about the person of Jesus Christ and each and everyone's relationship to Him. His Word states that He loves us all, even to death on a cross and that He is patient with us not wanting anyone to die in their sin; for He has made provision for everyone who trusts in Him. Is there something you have against a relationship with Jesus, something He said, did, etc. Was He a meglomaniac, liar or was He truthfully exactly who He said He was; the Son of God, the Way, the Truth and the Life?

Do I see the next strawman about atheists rasing its ugly head there: that atheists "hate" God/Jesus?
Atheists do not believe that these claims or even the whole story is true. That's all.

What have you got to lose by asking Him to show you that He is real? He said, a sinful father knows how to give good gifts to his children and so if sinful people know how to give good gifts to their children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him.” I do the believe the Spirit of God can change anyone, even the worst sinner (which Paul claimed to be chief) to the most skeptical. You seem like a reasoned man. Have you ever tried to reason with God?

On my profile page, you can find my join date for this forum: 2 March 2002. Over 15 years. These decade-and-a-half only encompasses a part of my history. Even my internet history started before that, and I have several decades of life before that.
Do you really think I have never heard that sermon before? Do you really think that I have never followed the... friendly advice... of Christians to "ask God"? Do you really think that I would have remained firm in my beliefs if I had ever gotten an answer?

And here I really am "special"... different from many other atheists here on this forum and in real life. I am one of those who never have been a Christian or other kind of "believer". As soon as I consciously thought about the whole story, I tought to myself: "No, this doesn't make any sense. This cannot be true." I have been an atheist for by far the most of my life.

Others here were Christians and other believers. Some were very vocal, very fundamentalist, very "born again". And for those, at some point came a moment where something didn't make sense anymore. And they did ask God. And found that in the situation they needed their God the most, he was silent. As if he didn't exist.

If you are really interested, I can point you to some other threads/posts... or explain again here... about my position to this "ask and you will be answered" spiel.

He asks us to in
Isaiah 1:18 There is no risk in asking Him to show you His Truth and He is far more equipped to do so than by this imperfect servant who is still learning from Him. How I would love to see you a Christian Freodin but I didn't die for you so God even moreso desires you to step and taste that the Lord is Good.
May the Lord Guide, Pat

You will forgive me if I perceive this as just the usual Christian evasion to the fact that they don't have anything to offer to atheists.