What is the truth I should believe?

[mva1985]

There is plenty of information in the link that I provided, and probably written much better then I could give you.

I had forgotten why I never get my questions answered until now.
The mind games is played by those whose answers are not available unless they can find a way to add what is reasoned to what is written.

I guess if I study long enough Gen 2:1-3 will say more than is written.

You cannot present that Adam and Eve was given a sabbath rest with text that says that God rested on the seventh day of creation. Gen 2:1-3 does not support the giving of sabbath to humanity.

Rather than accepting the word as truth, some SDA get angry because their truths are not found in the bible.



I still love you all and I am praying for you all to chose the gospel as the only and true commission from Jesus that His church must preach to the world.



CRIB

 

[Byfaithalone1]

There have been many discussions here about the Sabbath.

I agree. Very true. There have been many discussions about the sabbath in this forum and yet not one of them has ever included a passage of Scripture that confirms that the sabbath was given to the Gentiles as a group. Your posts imply that such a text has been cited, but even the link you provided provides no such text. If you are aware of such a text, I'm sure you'll be happy to cite it for us so that we can discuss it directly.

Nice try with the mind game - but I won't fall for it.

Not sure what you mean by "mind game." I am merely asking direct questions. In response to my direct questions, I am being told that I play games and that you won't fall for my games. I'm having a hard time understanding why my simple, direct question is being met with such a response. Is my question that extraordinary? I am simply asking for Biblical evidence that the sabbath was given to Gentiles as a group. Will you be the first to provide the evidence?

BFA

 

[VictorC]

There have been many discussions about the sabbath in this forum and yet not one of them has ever included a passage of Scripture that confirms that the sabbath was given to the Gentiles as a group. Your posts imply that such a text has been cited, but even the link you provided provides no such text. If you are aware of such a text, I'm sure you'll be happy to cite it for us so that we can discuss it directly.

I agree with BFA, and I have joined in a few of these discussions myself and found that there is no evidence that the sabbath ordinance was ever issued to the Gentiles, nor existed anywhere outside of a command given to Moses.

I looked at the link mva1985 provided, which is a thread conveniently located on the traditional SDA section, where I'm not permitted to question the posts that show up there. In a nutshell, the post written by PaleHorse is rife with the same faulty arguments that we have already discussed elsewhere in this forum. Simply considering the first four arguments on the initial page, I find:

Argument #1:
"The Sabbath was for the Jews.¨
This is actually true - the sabbath was a sign given between God and Israel only (Exodus 31:13-14), and did not exist prior to receipt of the sabbath by Moses with the covenant at Sinai (Deuteronomy 5:2-3), with the exception of issuance a month or so prior with the manna episode. The sabbath did not exist at creation, and both the account in Genesis 2 and the use of the seventh day as the impetus for initiation of the sabbath in Exodus 20:11 testify to this.

Argument #2:
"That was the old covenant - Jesus did away with the Sabbath and all the other ceremonial laws.”
First of all, a division of 'ceremonial' versus 'moral' does not exist within the 'one law' of Moses. Even if that faulty foundation were used to argue from, abolishing either the "ceremonial' sabbath of Leviticus 23:3 or the 'moral' of the ten commandments does away with the sabbath ordinance completely. The arguments presented are all citations prior to the cross when Moses still had jurisdiction, and does not see that propititation satisfied Moses and caused him to lose that jurisdiction. In order for Jesus to be our High Priest, the entire law of Moses had to expire as Hebrews 7:28 asserts.

Argument #3:
"God doesn't care what day we observe.¨
That is true. God has replaced the shadow of the covenant mediated by Moses with the reality of Jesus Christ. There is no ordinance that sets one day above another, which is why texts in Colossians 2 and Romans 14 show there are no grounds to judge the practice of other believers based on a day. The argument presented cites from a dispensation prior to the cross, when the schoolmaster law (Galatians 3:23-25) still reigned in its role to drive Israel to their Redeemer.

Argument #4:
”The apostles broke bread on the first day of the week”.
This argument confuses logistics for an ordinance that doesn't exist. It isn't even fit to comment on. Paul was the object of a riot that was started by the Jews who were "zealous for the law", because Paul was known as "the man, that teacheth all men every where against... the law" (Acts 21:28).

We have seen these arguments before.
They assume that nothing happened at the cross that affected the Mosaic covenant.

Hebrews 8:6-7
6: But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7: For if that first had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Hebrews 10:9
Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

This speaks to the disposal of the first covenant, the one that came from Sinai, as Hebrews 8 explains in its context.
It has been replaced by a new covenant of grace based on adoption.

Galatians 4:4-7
4: But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5: To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6: And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
7: Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Victor

 

[mva1985]

Not sure what you mean by "mind game." I am merely asking direct questions. In response to my direct questions, I am being told that I play games and that you won't fall for my games. I'm having a hard time understanding why my simple, direct question is being met with such a response. Is my question that extraordinary? I am simply asking for Biblical evidence that the sabbath was given to Gentiles as a group. Will you be the first to provide the evidence?

BFA

You have already arrived at your conclusion so what would be the point of the discussion?

I can not convince you - so again what would be the point. You have read the texts the seed has been planted and maybe one day the Holy Spirit will bring it to fruition if you allow Him.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

I can not convince you - so again what would be the point.

If you could point me to the evidence I requested, I would be quite convinced. My track record certainly demonstrates an ability to reevaluate my position.

You have read the texts the seed has been planted and maybe one day the Holy Spirit will bring it to fruition if you allow Him.

The problem that I've already articulated is that I haven't found any passages of Scripture that confirms that God commanded the Gentiles as a group of people to set aside one day each week as a special day of rest. Although I have complete faith in the Spirit's ability to convict, I've noticed that the SDA position on the sabbath seems to be built on a principle that cannot be found in Scripture. I am quite serious in my desire to see the Biblical basis for believing that God commands Gentiles to set aside a sabbath.

BFA

 

[mva1985]

If you could point me to the evidence I requested, I would be quite convinced. My track record certainly demonstrates an ability to reevaluate my position.



The problem that I've already articulated is that I haven't found any passages of Scripture that confirms that God commanded the Gentiles as a group of people to set aside one day each week as a special day of rest. Although I have complete faith in the Spirit's ability to convict, I've noticed that the SDA position on the sabbath seems to be built on a principle that cannot be found in Scripture. I am quite serious in my desire to see the Biblical basis for believing that God commands Gentiles to set aside a sabbath.

BFA

Two things to consider. Was it possible for a Gentile to become a Jew?

Do you believe in the concept of spiritual Israel?

 

[Cribstyl]

There is plenty of information in the link that I provided, and probably written much better then I could give you.

Those prepared remarks do not address my question directly. Thanks anywayz

.....................................................................................

well Crib, I did not answer you question cause I don't accept your initial premise.... likewise, I have never suggested that God instructed Adam and Eve to observe sabbath..... having said that, when you say "chose the gospel" how are you defining "gospel?"

Thanks anywayz

CRIB

 

[StormyOne]

Those prepared remarks do not address my question directly. Thanks anywayz

.....................................................................................



Thanks anywayz

CRIB

what are you thanking me for?

 

[ricker]

Two things to consider. Was it possible for a Gentile to become a Jew?

Do you believe in the concept of spiritual Israel?

I find it interesting this is what the discussion of the Sabbath always boils down to. With lack of any scriptural directives for Gentiles ever to keep the Sabbath, sabbitarians necessarily try to make Christians "spiritual Jews". This term is never used in the Bible.
I would like to see a Bible verse saying Gentile Christians under the new covenant are required to keep all the Jewish customs and laws as a unit.

 

[VictorC]

I find it interesting this is what the discussion of the Sabbath always boils down to. With lack of any scriptural directives for Gentiles ever to keep the Sabbath, sabbitarians necessarily try to make Christians "spiritual Jews". This term is never used in the Bible.

The sabbath is all that matters to Adventists, because that's all that mattered to Ellen White. She conveyed the label "Israel of God" to refer to the sabbath-"keeping" Christians (defined to be her "Little Flock"), and during the 19th Century this idea that the church was the replacement for literal Israel was very popular.

See how the sabbath was to distinguish the "Israel of God" from those Ellen considered unbelievers:

And I saw that if God had changed the Sabbath, from the seventh to the first day, He would have changed the writing of the Sabbath commandment, written on the tables of stone, which are now in the ark, in the Most Holy Place of the Temple in heaven; and it would read thus: The first day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God. But I saw that it read the same as when written on the tables of stone by the finger of God, and delivered to Moses in Sinai, "But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God." I saw that the holy Sabbath is, and will be, the separating wall between the true Israel of God and unbelievers; and that the Sabbath is the great question, to unite the hearts of God's dear waiting saints. And if one believed, and kept the Sabbath, and received the blessing attending it, and then gave it up, and broke the holy commandment, they would shut the gates of the Holy City against themselves, as sure as there was a God that rules in heaven above. I saw that God had children, who do not see and keep the Sabbath. They had not rejected the light on it. And at the commencement of the time of trouble, we were filled with the Holy Ghost as we went forth, and proclaimed the Sabbath more fully. This enraged the church, and nominal Adventists, as they could not refute the Sabbath truth. And at this time, God's chosen all saw clearly that we had the truth, and they came out and endured the persecution with us. And I saw the sword, famine, pestilence, and great confusion in the land. The wicked thought that we had brought the judgments down on them. They rose up and took counsel to rid the earth of us, thinking that then the evil would be stayed. {Broadside3, April 7, 1847 par. 4}

It was Ellen's theory of a pre-existing "law of God" (10c's) that always existed and was merely lent to Moses for a while. However, this doesn't set well with the Biblical texts that identify the 10c's as the Mosaic covenant - and Ellen has no explanation for the reason the Mosaic covenant is sitting in heaven. There isn't a text in the Bible anywhere to support the Mosaic covenant sitting in the ark of HIS -God's- testimony.

The above quote makes it very clear that Adventism considers sabbath-"keeping" essential for salvation, even though the details vary widely among the adherants on just how to "keep" the sabbath, and none of them are compliant with the law.

I would like to see a Bible verse saying Gentile Christians under the new covenant are required to keep all the Jewish customs and laws as a unit.

The Jerusalem council met just to consider this very question, since there were believing Pharisees that insisted the Gentiles needed to be circumcised and keep the Mosaic covenant.

Peter swung the thought processes with his observation:

Acts 15:5-12
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
6 ¶ And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

Peter noticed that God didn't make any difference between the Jews and the Gentiles, who were complete strangers to the Mosaic covenant and didn't know about circumcision and sabbath-keeping and all that stuff.
God didn't respect the law of the covenant (the 10c's) that came to an end.
Peter noticed this.
Why should we enforce a covenant God cares nothing about?
Especially since it was more than we could bear ourselves?

Ellen White's "Sabbath truth" was refuted by the church about 1800 years before Ellen was born, and God's elect had no problem seeing that Ellen didn't have the truth, which is why the "Little Flock" was little. Notice the "I saw" claim to divine inspiration Ellen made, and this shows so well that she used this claim to have her own way, since God didn't show Ellen anything in this "vision".

Victor

 

[StormyOne]

why some continue to artificially divide the believers in Christ is beyond me....

 

[mva1985]

The sabbath is all that matters to Adventists...... since God didn't show Ellen anything in this "vision".

Victor

I take exception to these two statements. You can proof neither one.

 

[Adventtruth]

I take exception to these two statements. You can proof neither one.

Hi mva1985...

Why is it after I left Adventism, and would very frequently see those who are still of the Adventist church at the local stores around the city, be confronted about the sabbath in any conversation we had about why I left? Every single Adventist I saw, all told me I had to keep the law and particularly the Sabbath. That suggest to me its all about the Sabbath.

AT

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Q: Let's imagine for a moment that the Bible teaches that a Gentile can become a Jew (I don't agree that it does, but let's just imagine for the sake of discussion that it does). Where in Scripture can I find a teaching that a Gentile who becomes a Jew should set aside the seventh day as a special day of rest?

Was it possible for a Gentile to become a Jew?

What do the Scriptures say? Are we grafted in among natural branches, or do we actually become natural branches? What are your thoughts on Romans 11?

Do you believe in the concept of spiritual Israel?

What do the Scriptures say about "spiritual Israel?" I did a search for the phrase "spiritual Isreal" and found no instances of this phrase in Scripture.

I am interested in reading the Scriptural basis for these ideas.

Thanks,
BFA

 

[mva1985]

Hi mva1985...

Why is it after I left Adventism, and would very frequently see those who are still of the Adventist church at the local stores around the city, be confronted about the sabbath in any conversation we had about why I left? Every single Adventist I saw, all told me I had to keep the law and particularly the Sabbath. That suggest to me its all about the Sabbath.

AT

Since you are a former Adventist if I ran into you I would be curious as to why you left the church and trust that you were being truthful. People to leave the church for numerous reasons.

I don't like to see people leave the church but I do realize that it does happen.

 

[VictorC]

I take exception to these two statements. You can proof neither one.

Your exception is noted.

However, I have demonstrated that the Mosaic covenant has been replaced with a new covenant based on better promises a number of times, and the same passage in Hebrews 8 specifies that it would not be according to the covenant made at Sinai that was labelled 'faulty' in verse 7 and determined to vanish away in verse 13.

It is impossible to reconcile Ellen White's 'vision' that the sabbath would become "the separating wall between the true Israel of God and unbelievers" in a dispensation where there is no such thing as a sabbath ordinance, which is unable to survive the disposal of the covenant it was made in.

Hebrews is accepted as inspired canon of Scripture.
Ellen violates the message in this epistle, which elaborates on the change from the first covenant mediated by Moses to a new one mediated by Christ.
That is enough to discard her as a liar when she made a claim to divine inspiration. Scathing words to describe this claim to a prophetic gift is made in Jeremiah 23:32:
Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the LORD, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the LORD.

Even Ellen wrote that you aren't given a halfway mark for disposition of her authority:

"God is either teaching His church, reproving their wrongs and strengthening their faith, or He is not. This work is of God, or it is not. God does nothing in partnership with Satan. My work . . . bears the stamp of God or the stamp of the enemy. There is no halfway work in the matter. The Testimonies are of the Spirit of God, or of the devil."
Testimonies, vol. 5, p. 671. (1889) {Ev 260.2}
The ellipsis appears in 5T where I fetched this from.

Welcome to the valley of decision.
We have all been here at one time or another.

Victor

 

[Adventtruth]

Since you are a former Adventist if I ran into you I would be curious as to why you left the church and trust that you were being truthful. People to leave the church for numerous reasons.

I don't like to see people leave the church but I do realize that it does happen.

Its only natural that you would be curious and I understand that. But all the conversations with Adventist....females and males, boiled down to the law and sabbath. They all believed that if I rejected the worshipping on that day and keeping that day sacred, I would be lost. Is that what you believe as well?

AT

 

[mva1985]

Its only natural that you would be curious and I understand that. But all the conversations with Adventist....females and males, boiled down to the law and sabbath. They all believed that if I rejected the worshipping on that day and keeping that day sacred, I would be lost. Is that what you believe as well?

AT

AT,

If I can be upfront and honest. My initial answer is NO I do not think you are lost (that is for God to decide), although I think because you have been exposed to the truth - I think you are placing yourself on dangerous ground.

I am not trying to be judgmental - just expressing my opinion.

 

[mva1985]

The better promises are the promises of God that He will write His laws on our hearts.

The promises of the old covenant were the Israelites promising "all that the Lord has said we will do." These were the faulty promises.

Your exception is noted.

However, I have demonstrated that the Mosaic covenant has been replaced with a new covenant based on better promises a number of times, and the same passage in Hebrews 8 specifies that it would not be according to the covenant made at Sinai that was labelled 'faulty' in verse 7 and determined to vanish away in verse 13.

It is impossible to reconcile Ellen White's 'vision' that the sabbath would become "the separating wall between the true Israel of God and unbelievers" in a dispensation where there is no such thing as a sabbath ordinance, which is unable to survive the disposal of the covenant it was made in.

Hebrews is accepted as inspired canon of Scripture.
Ellen violates the message in this epistle, which elaborates on the change from the first covenant mediated by Moses to a new one mediated by Christ.
That is enough to discard her as a liar when she made a claim to divine inspiration. Scathing words to describe this claim to a prophetic gift is made in Jeremiah 23:32:
Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the LORD, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the LORD.

Even Ellen wrote that you aren't given a halfway mark for disposition of her authority:

"God is either teaching His church, reproving their wrongs and strengthening their faith, or He is not. This work is of God, or it is not. God does nothing in partnership with Satan. My work . . . bears the stamp of God or the stamp of the enemy. There is no halfway work in the matter. The Testimonies are of the Spirit of God, or of the devil."
Testimonies, vol. 5, p. 671. (1889) {Ev 260.2}
The ellipsis appears in 5T where I fetched this from.

Welcome to the valley of decision.
We have all been here at one time or another.

Victor

 

[VictorC]

The better promises are the promises of God that He will write His laws on our hearts.

I don't believe you have read Hebrews 8 lately:

6: But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7: For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8: For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10: For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12: For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13: In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

The law written into the recipients of the new covenant would not be according to the old one that was made at Sinai.
That means the law written into us isn't the ten commandments.
That was the Mosaic covenant, that verse 7 above identifies as 'faulty', because it wasn't ever complied with, and would justify no one. That covenant (10c's) was decaying and was ready to vanish away.

The result of the new covenant was to know God without further need of instruction, and this is a task the Mosaic covenant (the ten commandments) was incapable of. This new covenant law is an allusion to His Spirit of adoption, which Ezekiel 36:27 supports when it says, "I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them".

The promises of the old covenant were the Israelites promising "all that the Lord has said we will do." These were the faulty promises.

Agreed. Faulty because no one complied; all are disobedient as Romans 11:32 declares.

This is why the promises made 430 years before the Mosaic covenant existed are those better promises relied upon.
Hebrews 6:12-15
12: That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
13: For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
14: Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.
15: And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.

Romans 4:13-15
13: For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14: For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15: Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

The new covenant has no relation to the old.
Hebrews 8:7
For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Hebrews 10:9
Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

What was the disposition of the sabbath?
God Himself took it away.

What does this mean when Ellen White wrote the following?
I saw that the holy Sabbath is, and will be, the separating wall between the true Israel of God and unbelievers.
Does the "I saw" endorsement of this claim indicate it was inspired by God, or the devil?
Ellen wrote there was nothing in between regarding her testimonies.

Victor