What is the truth I should believe?

[Byfaithalone1]

although I think because you have been exposed to the truth - I think you are placing yourself on dangerous ground.

OK. I understand that you believe that we are on dangerous ground. I also understand that your beliefs cause you to be concerned. I can respect that. However, in light of your concern, I'm a bit confused by the way in which you respond to sincere questions about the things that you believe.

For example, I've raised a sincere question about the sabbath. There are a number of ways in which you could have chosen to respond to my sincere question. You could:

(1) answer my question directly and in the same spirit it was given,
(2) indicate that you've looked for an answer to my question and that you have not been able to find an answer to my question in Scripture,
(3) respond to my question with something evasive,
(4) surmise negative attributes about me based on the way you view my question, or
(5) ignore my question entirely.

In light of the greatest commandment, which course of action should you take if you have genuine concerns about the dangerous ground upon which I'm standing?

A little confused,
BFA

 

[VictorC]

AT,

If I can be upfront and honest. My initial answer is NO I do not think you are lost (that is for God to decide), although I think because you have been exposed to the truth - I think you are placing yourself on dangerous ground.

Is this the "truth" that places Adventtruth on dangerous ground?

And if one believed, and kept the Sabbath, and received the blessing attending it, and then gave it up, and broke the holy commandment, they would shut the gates of the Holy City against themselves, as sure as there was a God that rules in heaven above.

According to Ellen White's quote from just a few posts ago, AT is indeed lost. He has to earn salvation back by compliance to an abolished commandment.
That isn't according to the Gospel.

Welcome to the valley of decision.
All of us have been there at one time or another.

Choose who you're going to follow.

Victor

 

[mva1985]

You are repeating just what I said. God said that He will write His law upon the heart and mind.

And even though we are talking about a New Covenant it is interesting that there is still mention of laws and statutes. What exactly are they?

I don't believe you have read Hebrews 8 lately:

6: But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7: For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8: For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10: For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12: For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13: In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

The law written into the recipients of the new covenant would not be according to the old one that was made at Sinai.
That means the law written into us isn't the ten commandments.
That was the Mosaic covenant, that verse 7 above identifies as 'faulty', because it wasn't ever complied with, and would justify no one. That covenant (10c's) was decaying and was ready to vanish away.

The result of the new covenant was to know God without further need of instruction, and this is a task the Mosaic covenant (the ten commandments) was incapable of. This new covenant law is an allusion to His Spirit of adoption, which Ezekiel 36:27 supports when it says, "I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them".

Agreed. Faulty because no one complied; all are disobedient as Romans 11:32 declares.

This is why the promises made 430 years before the Mosaic covenant existed are those better promises relied upon.
Hebrews 6:12-15
12: That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
13: For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
14: Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.
15: And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.

Romans 4:13-15
13: For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14: For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15: Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

The new covenant has no relation to the old.
Hebrews 8:7
For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Hebrews 10:9
Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

What was the disposition of the sabbath?
God Himself took it away.

What does this mean when Ellen White wrote the following?
I saw that the holy Sabbath is, and will be, the separating wall between the true Israel of God and unbelievers.
Does the "I saw" endorsement of this claim indicate it was inspired by God, or the devil?
Ellen wrote there was nothing in between regarding her testimonies.

Victor

 

[mva1985]

No one earns their salvation the Bible is very clear on that.

And the commandment has not been abolished.

Is this the "truth" that places Adventtruth on dangerous ground?

And if one believed, and kept the Sabbath, and received the blessing attending it, and then gave it up, and broke the holy commandment, they would shut the gates of the Holy City against themselves, as sure as there was a God that rules in heaven above.

According to Ellen White's quote from just a few posts ago, AT is indeed lost. He has to earn salvation back by compliance to an abolished commandment.
That isn't according to the Gospel.

Welcome to the valley of decision.
All of us have been there at one time or another.

Choose who you're going to follow.

Victor

 

[mva1985]

"And if one believed, and kept the Sabbath, and received the blessing attending it, and then gave it up, and broke the holy commandment, they would shut the gates of the Holy City against themselves, as sure as there was a God that rules in heaven above." {1SM 66.4}
Those who have clearly seen and fully accepted the truth upon the fourth commandment, and have received the blessing attending obedience, but have since renounced their faith, and dared to violate the law of God, will find, if they persist in this path of disobedience, the gates of the city of God closed against them. {1SM 66.5}

There is always an opportunity with God as long as we have not hardened our hearts to His Spirit and as long as probation has not closed for us.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

No one earns their salvation.

Compare and contrast this statement with the following statements:

"But Christ has given us no assurance that to attain perfection of character is an easy matter. A noble, all-round character is not inherited. It does not come to us by accident. A noble character is earned by individual effort through the merits and grace of Christ. God gives the talents, the powers of the mind; we form the character. It is formed by hard stern battles with self. Conflict after conflict must be waged against hereditary tendencies. We shall have to criticize ourselves closely, and allow not one unfavorable trait to remain. Let no one say, we cannot remedy our defects of character. If you come to this decision, you will certainly fail of obtaining everlasting life. The impossibility lies in your own will. If you will not, then you can not overcome” (Christ’s Object Lessons, p. 331).


“He told them that he had been pleading with his Father, and had offered to give his life a ransom, and take the sentence of death upon himself, that through him man might find pardon; that through the merits of his blood, and obedience to the law of God, they could have the favor of God, and be brought into the beautiful garden, and eat of the fruit of the tree of life.” (1SP 45.1)

“Only by perfect obedience to the requirements of God's holy law can man be justified.” (Manuscript Releases, vol. 8, pp. 98-99)

"Not one of us will ever receive the seal of God while our characters have one spot or stain upon them. It is left with us to remedy the defects in our characters, to cleanse the soul temple of every defilement" (Testimonies, Vol. 5, p. 214).

"What you need to understand is the true force of the will. This is the governing power in the nature of man, the power of decision of choice. Everything depends on the right action of the will” (Steps to Christ, p. 47).​

BFA

 

[VictorC]

You are repeating just what I said. God said that He will write His law upon the heart and mind.

Yet the text in Hebrews and Jeremiah specifies that the law written into our hearts and minds isn't from the covenant made at Sinai, and it accomplishes a personal knowledge of God that a written ordinance isn't able to acheive.

I already know what the reference of the "law of love" that appears in SDA fundamental #10 is to, but it is a violation of the Scriptures that I quoted in my previous post.

What is it that is written into us?

And even though we are talking about a New Covenant it is interesting that there is still mention of laws and statutes. What exactly are they?

Ezekiel makes reference to giving us the ability to walk in God's judgments, His mishpat, and I believe this to be His oral commands.

Victor

 

[VictorC]

"And if one believed, and kept the Sabbath, and received the blessing attending it, and then gave it up, and broke the holy commandment, they would shut the gates of the Holy City against themselves, as sure as there was a God that rules in heaven above." {1SM 66.4}
Those who have clearly seen and fully accepted the truth upon the fourth commandment, and have received the blessing attending obedience, but have since renounced their faith, and dared to violate the law of God, will find, if they persist in this path of disobedience, the gates of the city of God closed against them. {1SM 66.5}

There is always an opportunity with God as long as we have not hardened our hearts to His Spirit and as long as probation has not closed for us.

The full paragraph was already provided in my previous post honor to God, and not to Moses:

And I saw that if God had changed the Sabbath, from the seventh to the first day, He would have changed the writing of the Sabbath commandment, written on the tables of stone, which are now in the ark, in the Most Holy Place of the Temple in heaven; and it would read thus: The first day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God. But I saw that it read the same as when written on the tables of stone by the finger of God, and delivered to Moses in Sinai, "But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God." I saw that the holy Sabbath is, and will be, the separating wall between the true Israel of God and unbelievers; and that the Sabbath is the great question, to unite the hearts of God's dear waiting saints. And if one believed, and kept the Sabbath, and received the blessing attending it, and then gave it up, and broke the holy commandment, they would shut the gates of the Holy City against themselves, as sure as there was a God that rules in heaven above. I saw that God had children, who do not see and keep the Sabbath. They had not rejected the light on it. And at the commencement of the time of trouble, we were filled with the Holy Ghost as we went forth, and proclaimed the Sabbath more fully. This enraged the church, and nominal Adventists, as they could not refute the Sabbath truth. And at this time, God's chosen all saw clearly that we had the truth, and they came out and endured the persecution with us. And I saw the sword, famine, pestilence, and great confusion in the land. The wicked thought that we had brought the judgments down on them. They rose up and took counsel to rid the earth of us, thinking that then the evil would be stayed. {Broadside3, April 7, 1847 par. 4}

An explanation that I requested to tell me what the law of Moses is doing in the ark of God's testimony has gone unanswered. The "I saw" claim to inspiration that Ellen White makes does not explain this contradiction, nor does it explain the enforcement of a ordinance from an abolished covenant in a dispensation wherein it has no jurisdiction. The "separating wall between the true Israel of God and unbelievers" is mere uninspired fiction.

Ellen was a prime example of a hardened heart against the Gospel of redemption, which is the very opposite of what you appear to opine. The hardened heart with seek to embrace Moses to perform the steps to salvation, rather than submit to God's righteousness. This is exactly what Paul outlined in Romans 10:1-4:

1: Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2: For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3: For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4: For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

A works-based means of salvation makes better sense to the carnal mind, but it isn't the means that God has provided for us.

Victor

 

[VictorC]

No one earns their salvation the Bible is very clear on that.

How do you explain the quote I provided, and the quotes BFA has just provided, from Ellen White that clearly contradict the Bible?

And the commandment has not been abolished.

And how is it that now you choose to clearly contradict the Bible yourself?

2 Corinthians 3:5-7
5: Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6: Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7: But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away.

Follow the context of this passage yourself, and see that the term 'abolished' is used to describe the covenant of the letters inscribed on stone tables in verse 13.
If the ten commandments have been abolished, from where do you find a commandment of the sabbath that hasn't been abolished? From Leviticus 23:3, perhaps? This chapter describes the annual sabbaths along with the weekly sabbath, and the SDA church does not find a means to comply with any of this law.

Victor

 

[mva1985]

Compare and contrast this statement with the following statements:

"But Christ has given us no assurance that to attain perfection of character is an easy matter. A noble, all-round character is not inherited. It does not come to us by accident. A noble character is earned by individual effort through the merits and grace of Christ. God gives the talents, the powers of the mind; we form the character. It is formed by hard stern battles with self. Conflict after conflict must be waged against hereditary tendencies. We shall have to criticize ourselves closely, and allow not one unfavorable trait to remain. Let no one say, we cannot remedy our defects of character. If you come to this decision, you will certainly fail of obtaining everlasting life. The impossibility lies in your own will. If you will not, then you can not overcome” (Christ’s Object Lessons, p. 331).


“He told them that he had been pleading with his Father, and had offered to give his life a ransom, and take the sentence of death upon himself, that through him man might find pardon; that through the merits of his blood, and obedience to the law of God, they could have the favor of God, and be brought into the beautiful garden, and eat of the fruit of the tree of life.” (1SP 45.1)

“Only by perfect obedience to the requirements of God's holy law can man be justified.” (Manuscript Releases, vol. 8, pp. 98-99)

"Not one of us will ever receive the seal of God while our characters have one spot or stain upon them. It is left with us to remedy the defects in our characters, to cleanse the soul temple of every defilement" (Testimonies, Vol. 5, p. 214).

"What you need to understand is the true force of the will. This is the governing power in the nature of man, the power of decision of choice. Everything depends on the right action of the will” (Steps to Christ, p. 47).​

BFA

I guess you are saying that it is not necessary for me to try and rid myself of any evil habits that I might have. NOT.

Does God give immediate victory to every smoker who prays for the ability to stop smoking - No. With some they can put down a cigarette and never smoke again. With others it is a real battle that they have quitting the habit. So what is the difference between the two smokers? Both have asked for help. One quit immediately and the other battled for victory.

2 Cor. 13:5

 

[Byfaithalone1]

I guess you are saying that it is not necessary for me to try and rid myself of any evil habits that I might have.

In fact, that is not at all what I am saying. I was responding to your statement that "no one earns their salvation," and I was demonstrating that the SDA prophet does not consistently confirm the truth of that statement in her writings.

Rather than consistently teaching that "no one earns their salvation," Mrs. White frequently writes statements such as the following:

• We form the character; it is earned by individual effort;
• Through obedience to the law, we have the favor of God and eat of the fruit of the tree of life.
• Only by perfect obedience to the requirements of God's holy law can man be justified.
• It is left with us to remedy the defects in our characters.

Do you agree or disagree with these statements?

BFA

P.S. Is it safe to conclude that you cannot find any basis in Scripture for concluding that God commanded the Gentiles as a group to set aside the 7th day as a special day of rest? If so, how does this impact your perspective on the SDA teaching regarding the mark of the beast?
​

 

[mva1985]

We are going to have to agree to disagree. I think that is the extent of it.

But I know you try and keep at least nine of the ten commandments even though you believe they were ALL abolished.

Is your neighbor's wife a hottie by chance?

How do you explain the quote I provided, and the quotes BFA has just provided, from Ellen White that clearly contradict the Bible?

And how is it that now you choose to clearly contradict the Bible yourself?

2 Corinthians 3:5-7
5: Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6: Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7: But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away.

Follow the context of this passage yourself, and see that the term 'abolished' is used to describe the covenant of the letters inscribed on stone tables in verse 13.
If the ten commandments have been abolished, from where do you find a commandment of the sabbath that hasn't been abolished? From Leviticus 23:3, perhaps? This chapter describes the annual sabbaths along with the weekly sabbath, and the SDA church does not find a means to comply with any of this law.

Victor

 

[mva1985]

I guess you are saying that it is not necessary for me to try and rid myself of any evil habits that I might have.

In fact, that is not at all what I am saying. I was responding to your statement that "no one earns their salvation," and I was demonstrating that the SDA prophet does not consistently confirm the truth of that statement in her writings.

Rather than consistently teaching that "no one earns their salvation," Mrs. White teaches that:



Do you agree or disagree with the quotes I cited?

BFA

I would need to go and look at each one in context before I could say yea or nay on them.

I've seen it to many times where things have been taken out of context in her writings.

But as you have them quoted I do agree with the statements, yet I don't believe that they demonstrate a salvation by works. We don't believe in salvation by works - it can't be done.

If I thought I had to be saved by my works I might as well quit right now.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

But I know you try and keep at least nine of the ten commandments even though you believe they were ALL abolished.

We can make all of the claims we want, but none of us consistently follow God's commands. If I were to hazard a guess, I suspect that you don't follow all of the God-given commands set out in Exodus 34. But there is good news for those who fail. We have a Savior!

BFA

 

[Byfaithalone1]

I would need to go and look at each one in context before I could say yea or nay on them.

Fair enough. I provided the citation for each one and I pulled them from the White Estate website. Thank you for agreeing to look up each statement for yourself. Once you've done so, please report back as to the ways in which you believe the context made the quotes more pallatable. I'll be interested to dialogue with you further regarding each one.

But as you have them quoted I do agree with the statements, yet I don't believe that they demonstrate a salvation by works.

Interesting. Mrs. White clearly writes that through obedience to the law, we have the favor of God and eat of the fruit of the tree of life, and yet you conclude that the statements don't demonstrate salvation by works? How is that possible?

We don't believe in salvation by works - it can't be done.

Mrs. White plainly writes that it is only by obedience that a man can be justified. How do you reconcile this into your view of salvation by grace through faith and not by works?

If I thought I had to be saved by my works I might as well quit right now.

On this point we agree. It is for that reason that I concluded that Mrs. White's statements could not be reconciled with Scripture. I'll be interested to hear your conclusion once you've read the statements in their entire context.

BFA

 

[Sophia7]

I guess you are saying that it is not necessary for me to try and rid myself of any evil habits that I might have. NOT.

Does God give immediate victory to every smoker who prays for the ability to stop smoking - No. With some they can put down a cigarette and never smoke again. With others it is a real battle that they have quitting the habit. So what is the difference between the two smokers? Both have asked for help. One quit immediately and the other battled for victory.

2 Cor. 13:5

Is the smoker who quits immediately upon becoming a Christian and no longer struggles with that temptation more saved than the one who still succumbs to the temptation to smoke occasionally, even after praying for deliverance from the habit? Does the smoker who has a harder time quitting temporarily lose his salvation every time he gives in and smokes, until he repents? What is the difference between the two?

 

[mva1985]

Is the smoker who quits immediately upon becoming a Christian and no longer struggles with that temptation more saved than the one who still succumbs to the temptation to smoke occasionally, even after praying for deliverance from the habit? Does the smoker who has a harder time quitting temporarily lose his salvation until he confesses every time he gives in and smokes? What is the difference between the two?

God knows the heart of the one who struggles with a sin.

Thank God it is up to God!!!

 

[mva1985]

"We do not earn salvation by our obedience, for salvation is the free gift of God, to be received by faith. But obedience is the fruit of faith. "Ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not" (chap. 3:5, 6). Here is the true test. If we abide in Christ, if the love of God dwells in us, our feelings, our thoughts, our purposes, our actions, will be in harmony with the will of God as expressed in the precepts of His holy law. "Little children, let no man deceive you; he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous" (verse 7). Righteousness is defined by the standard of God's holy law, as expressed in the ten precepts given on Sinai. {RC 274.3}
The so-called faith in Christ which professes to release men from the obligation of obedience to God is not faith, but presumption. "By grace are ye saved through faith" (Eph. 2:8). But "faith, if it hath not works, is dead" (James 2:17). Jesus said of Himself before He came to earth, "I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart" (Ps. 40:8). And just before He ascended again to heaven, He declare, "I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love" (John 15:10). The Scriptures says, "Hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments" (1 John 2:3). . . . {RC 274.4}
The condition of eternal life is now just what it always has been--just what it was in Paradise before the fall of our first parents--perfect obedience to the law of God, perfect righteousness. If eternal life were granted on any condition short of this, then the happiness of the whole universe would be imperiled. The way would be open for sin, with all its train of woe and misery, to be immortalized. . . . {RC 274.5}
The more our sense of need drives us to Him and to the Word of God, the more exalted views we shall have of His character, and the more fully we shall reflect His image.--Steps to Christ, pp. 60-65. {RC 274.6}"

 

[mva1985]

Compare and contrast this statement with the following statements:

"But Christ has given us no assurance that to attain perfection of character is an easy matter. A noble, all-round character is not inherited. It does not come to us by accident. A noble character is earned by individual effort through the merits and grace of Christ. God gives the talents, the powers of the mind; we form the character. It is formed by hard stern battles with self. Conflict after conflict must be waged against hereditary tendencies. We shall have to criticize ourselves closely, and allow not one unfavorable trait to remain. Let no one say, we cannot remedy our defects of character. If you come to this decision, you will certainly fail of obtaining everlasting life. The impossibility lies in your own will. If you will not, then you can not overcome” (Christ’s Object Lessons, p. 331). The real difficulty arises from the corruption of an unsanctified heart, and an unwillingness to submit to the control of God. {COL 331.2}


“He told them that he had been pleading with his Father, and had offered to give his life a ransom, and take the sentence of death upon himself, that through him man might find pardon; that through the merits of his blood, and obedience to the law of God, they could have the favor of God, and be brought into the beautiful garden, and eat of the fruit of the tree of life.” (1SP 45.1)

“Only by perfect obedience to the requirements of God's holy law can man be justified.” (Manuscript Releases, vol. 8, pp. 98-99) Let those whose natures have been perverted by sin, ever keep their eyes fixed on Christ, the author and the finisher of their faith. {8MR 98.1}

"Not one of us will ever receive the seal of God while our characters have one spot or stain upon them. It is left with us to remedy the defects in our characters, to cleanse the soul temple of every defilement" (Testimonies, Vol. 5, p. 214).
Then the latter rain will fall upon us as the early rain fell upon the disciples on the Day of Pentecost. {5T 214.2}
We are too easily satisfied with our attainments. We feel rich and increased with goods and know not that we are "wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked." Now is the time to heed the admonition of the True Witness: "I counsel thee to buy of Me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see." {5T 214.3}

"What you need to understand is the true force of the will. This is the governing power in the nature of man, the power of decision of choice. Everything depends on the right action of the will” (Steps to Christ, p. 47). The power of choice God has given to men; it is theirs to exercise. You cannot change your heart, you cannot of yourself give to God its affections; but you can choose to serve Him. You can give Him your will; He will then work in you to will and to do according to His good pleasure. Thus your whole nature will be brought under the control of the Spirit of Christ; your affections will be centered upon Him, your thoughts will be in harmony with Him. {SC 47.1}
​

BFA

BFA I added some of the paragraphs that were left off. Obviously they are in red. I hope that those who read them that it will add some clarification.

 

[VictorC]

We are going to have to agree to disagree. I think that is the extent of it.

Yet you have no Biblical basis for your disagreement.

But I know you try and keep at least nine of the ten commandments even though you believe they were ALL abolished.

Is your neighbor's wife a hottie by chance?

You claim a gift to divination instead of reading my posts.
I don't keep the covenant, neither do you, nor any Adventist, nor any of the children of Israel.
They never have, and neither have you.
What sets us apart is that I have honestly acknowledged my inability to abide to the Mosaic covenant, and I agree with God's Word, which reads For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all in Romans 11:32.

Victor