What is the truth I should believe?

[Byfaithalone1]

MVA,

Thanks for providing the additional quotes for our consideration. I did read them. Note again the source of my concern. The source of my concern is not that Mrs. White NEVER writes anything that agrees with the gospel as presented in the Scriptures, it is that she does not consistently do so. If you re-read my post, you'll notice that I wrote the following:

I was demonstrating that the SDA prophet does not consistently confirm the truth of that statement in her writings. Rather than consistently teaching that "no one earns their salvation," Mrs. White frequently writes statements such as the following:

• We form the character; it is earned by individual effort;
• Through obedience to the law, we have the favor of God and eat of the fruit of the tree of life.
• Only by perfect obedience to the requirements of God's holy law can man be justified.
• It is left with us to remedy the defects in our characters.

BFA I added some of the paragraphs that were left off. Obviously they are in red. I hope that those who read them that it will add some clarification.

OK, thanks. I appreciate the additional opportunity to discuss.

"But Christ has given us no assurance that to attain perfection of character is an easy matter. A noble, all-round character is not inherited. It does not come to us by accident. A noble character is earned by individual effort through the merits and grace of Christ. God gives the talents, the powers of the mind; we form the character. It is formed by hard stern battles with self. Conflict after conflict must be waged against hereditary tendencies. We shall have to criticize ourselves closely, and allow not one unfavorable trait to remain. Let no one say, we cannot remedy our defects of character. If you come to this decision, you will certainly fail of obtaining everlasting life. The impossibility lies in your own will. If you will not, then you can not overcome” (Christ’s Object Lessons, p. 331). The real difficulty arises from the corruption of an unsanctified heart, and an unwillingness to submit to the control of God. {COL 331.2}

Notice how the passage in red continues in the same vein as the passage in black. The focus is on the human, and not on His Savior. The portion in red in no way negates or further explains Mrs. White's claim that humans form their own characters and that such characters are earned by individual effort. As I suggested, Mrs. White's statements are inconsistent with the gospel of Jesus Christ.

“He told them that he had been pleading with his Father, and had offered to give his life a ransom, and take the sentence of death upon himself, that through him man might find pardon; that through the merits of his blood, and obedience to the law of God, they could have the favor of God, and be brought into the beautiful garden, and eat of the fruit of the tree of life.” (1SP 45.1)

I noticed that there was no red type for this quote. How do you respond to this quote? Is it Scriptural?

“Only by perfect obedience to the requirements of God's holy law can man be justified.” (Manuscript Releases, vol. 8, pp. 98-99) Let those whose natures have been perverted by sin, ever keep their eyes fixed on Christ, the author and the finisher of their faith. {8MR 98.1}

Indeed. She teaches two principles here. (1) Christ is the author and the finisher of our faith, and (2) only by perfect obedience can man be justified. Is point (2) consistent with Scripture?

"Not one of us will ever receive the seal of God while our characters have one spot or stain upon them. It is left with us to remedy the defects in our characters, to cleanse the soul temple of every defilement" (Testimonies, Vol. 5, p. 214).Then the latter rain will fall upon us as the early rain fell upon the disciples on the Day of Pentecost. {5T 214.2}We are too easily satisfied with our attainments. We feel rich and increased with goods and know not that we are "wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked." Now is the time to heed the admonition of the True Witness: "I counsel thee to buy of Me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see." {5T 214.3}

Notice how the focus remains on the effort of the human and not the actions of the Savior? It is left with the sinner to do these things; it is left with the sinner to remedy his own defects. Is this consistent with the teachings of Scripture?

You've claimed that no one earns their salvation, and I agree. And yet the passages you've read and cited clearly indicated that the SDA prophet held a different position.

How should view a prophet teaches a gospel that runs contrary to Scripture? What does Galatians 1 say?

BFA

 

[Adventtruth]

AT,

If I can be upfront and honest. My initial answer is NO I do not think you are lost (that is for God to decide), although I think because you have been exposed to the truth - I think you are placing yourself on dangerous ground.

I am not trying to be judgmental - just expressing my opinion.

Thanks for being up front and honest....but can you kindly continue to be up front and honest and tell me exactually what is the truth I have been exposed to, and how rejecting it puts me on dangerous ground. I think you owe me that much...seeing that you said it.

AT

 

[mva1985]

OK, thanks. I appreciate the additional opportunity to discuss.

"But Christ has given us no assurance that to attain perfection of character is an easy matter. A noble, all-round character is not inherited. It does not come to us by accident. A noble character is earned by individual effort through the merits and grace of Christ. God gives the talents, the powers of the mind; we form the character. It is formed by hard stern battles with self. Conflict after conflict must be waged against hereditary tendencies. We shall have to criticize ourselves closely, and allow not one unfavorable trait to remain. Let no one say, we cannot remedy our defects of character. If you come to this decision, you will certainly fail of obtaining everlasting life. The impossibility lies in your own will. If you will not, then you can not overcome” (Christ’s Object Lessons, p. 331). The real difficulty arises from the corruption of an unsanctified heart, and an unwillingness to submit to the control of God. {COL 331.2}
​

Notice how the passage in red continues in the same vein as the passage in black. The focus is on the human, and not on His Savior. The portion in red in no way negates or further explains Mrs. White's claim that humans form their own characters and that such characters are earned by individual effort. As I suggested, Mrs. White's statements are inconsistent with the gospel of Jesus Christ.
I think it is important to note that this is all done while submitting to the control of God.

“He told them that he had been pleading with his Father, and had offered to give his life a ransom, and take the sentence of death upon himself, that through him man might find pardon; that through the merits of his blood, and obedience to the law of God, they could have the favor of God, and be brought into the beautiful garden, and eat of the fruit of the tree of life.” (1SP 45.1)
​

I noticed that there was no red type for this quote. How do you respond to this quote? Is it Scriptural?
I just highlighted more of the quote above that I think it is important to consider.

“Only by perfect obedience to the requirements of God's holy law can man be justified.” (Manuscript Releases, vol. 8, pp. 98-99) Let those whose natures have been perverted by sin, ever keep their eyes fixed on Christ, the author and the finisher of their faith. {8MR 98.1}
​

Indeed. She teaches two principles here. (1) Christ is the author and the finisher of our faith, and (2) only by perfect obedience can man be justified. Is point (2) consistent with Scripture?
The perfect obedience only comes by keeping our eyes fixed on Jesus.

"Not one of us will ever receive the seal of God while our characters have one spot or stain upon them. It is left with us to remedy the defects in our characters, to cleanse the soul temple of every defilement" (Testimonies, Vol. 5, p. 214).Then the latter rain will fall upon us as the early rain fell upon the disciples on the Day of Pentecost. {5T 214.2}We are too easily satisfied with our attainments. We feel rich and increased with goods and know not that we are "wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked." Now is the time to heed the admonition of the True Witness: "I counsel thee to buy of Me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see." {5T 214.3}
​

Notice how the focus remains on the effort of the human and not the actions of the Savior? It is left with the sinner to do these things; it is left with the sinner to remedy his own defects. Is this consistent with the teachings of Scripture?
Notice she tells us where to buy the "gold" that has been tried in fire.


You've claimed that no one earns their salvation, and I agree. And yet the passages you've read and cited clearly indicated that the SDA prophet held a different position.
I believe that when everything is examined it is found to be consistent with Scripture.

How should view a prophet teaches a gospel that runs contrary to Scripture? What does Galatians 1 say?

BFA


My answers in blue.

Eph. 2:8-10. Notice that we were created to do good works, but that still does not give us the right to boast. Salvation is a free gift.

 

[mva1985]

Thanks for being up front and honest....but can you kindly continue to be up front and honest and tell me exactually what is the truth I have been exposed to, and how rejecting it puts me on dangerous ground. I think you owe me that much...seeing that you said it.

AT

Whether it is the Sabbath or state of the dead or even the Sanctuary doctrine. Once you have known the truth of a number of things and rejected it, can lead a person to reject even more.

For example if I reject the six days of creation as literal days I believe that can lead me to also embrace other errors as well.

Again, I do not know your heart.

Ps. 77:13

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Salvation is a free gift.

And yet every word of your post demonstrates that salvation is obtained through human effort. How do I reconcile the two ideas?

BFA

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Whether it is the Sabbath or state of the dead or even the Sanctuary doctrine. Once you have known the truth of a number of things and rejected it, can lead a person to reject even more.

Your posts seem to miss an important point. Whether or not you agree with the conclusions we've reached, we have not seen "the truth" of the things you claim we've rejected. I, for one, have asked you to share with me the Scriptural basis for the "truths" you have. Perhaps you know something that I do not. However, you seem quite reluctant to share what you know. Why is that?

It is true that I cannot see "truth" in some of the things the SDA denomination teaches. For example, I find no basis for concluding that the sealing is a future event when the Scriptures confirm that the sealing is an already completed event. And I find no basis for concluding that the mark of the beast is applied based upon sabbath observance. And I find no basis for concluding that I must reach a state of sinless perfection prior to the close of probation in order to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. If you've found a Scriptural basis for these SDA teachings, can you share it with us?

For example if I reject the six days of creation as literal days I believe that can lead me to also embrace other errors as well.

I agree. However, I also believe that the Scriptures are correct when they teach that no one understands, and I conclude that everyone has misunderstood some aspect of Scripture or even some aspect of who God is. Salvation is not based on geting all of the right answers on a theology quiz. It is based on the finished work of Jesus Christ.

Regardless, it is good to seek to know more about God, and if you believe that I have missed an important "truth," please show me the Scriptures I've missed. I continue to learn new things.

BFA

 

[mva1985]

And yet every word of your post demonstrates that salvation is obtained through human effort. How do I reconcile the two ideas?

BFA

I really don't know what more I can say.

 

[mva1985]

I agree. However, I also believe that the Scriptures are correct when they teach that no one understands, and I conclude that everyone has misunderstood some aspect of Scripture or even some aspect of who God is. Salvation is not based on geting all of the right answers on a theology quiz. It is based on the finished work of Jesus Christ.

BFA

I would agree with you on this.

1 Cor. 8:2

 

[Byfaithalone1]

I really don't know what more I can say.

With respect to the EGW quotes we were discussing, I don't know that there is anything more to say. You have the evidence. Either you will see it for what it is, or you will conclude that the things she has written are consistent with Scripture. That is between you and God.

However, there are other questions in this thread that remain unanswered.

BFA

 

[Adventtruth]

Whether it is the Sabbath or state of the dead or even the Sanctuary doctrine. Once you have known the truth of a number of things and rejected it, can lead a person to reject even more.

For example if I reject the six days of creation as literal days I believe that can lead me to also embrace other errors as well.

Again, I do not know your heart.

Ps. 77:13

Thanks for the kind reply....I assure you the bible does not teach any of the things you mentioned as being salvational. I left Adventism after being in her 20 years and teaching in her for about 15 years. Salvation is by grace alone through faith alone plus nothing. If one is devoid of that, they are lost.


AT

 

[ricker]

I guess you are saying that it is not necessary for me to try and rid myself of any evil habits that I might have. NOT.

Does God give immediate victory to every smoker who prays for the ability to stop smoking - No. With some they can put down a cigarette and never smoke again. With others it is a real battle that they have quitting the habit. So what is the difference between the two smokers? Both have asked for help. One quit immediately and the other battled for victory.

2 Cor. 13:5

Are you saying you think smoking is a sin that could keep someone from heaven if not repented of?
Thanks, Ricker

 

[mva1985]

Thanks for the kind reply....I assure you the bible does not teach any of the things you mentioned as being salvational. I left Adventism after being in her 20 years and teaching in her for about 15 years. Salvation is by grace alone through faith alone plus nothing. If one is devoid of that, they are lost.


AT

And faith without works is dead. Book of James.

Does this mean we are saved by our works NO. So how are we to reconcile that the Bible teaches saved by grace through faith, but the Bible also teaches that faith without works is dead?

 

[Byfaithalone1]

And faith without works is dead. Book of James.

Does this mean we are saved by our works NO. So how are we to reconcile that the Bible teaches saved by grace through faith, but the Bible also teaches that faith without works is dead?

Billy is a Cuban. He wants to be a nuclear physicist. He learned that, 50 years ago, a Cuban politician set aside a scholarship for all Cubans who want to study to be nuclear physicists. All Cubans who apply are granted the scholarship. Coincidentally, all who have ever applied have had dark hair. Should Billy conclude that the scholarship is granted based on the color of a person's hair? Or should Billy conclude that it is natural for Cubans to have dark hair and that the scholarship is given because the Cuban person applied?

Should we not also conclude that it is natural for the Spirit to generate fruits in the lives of justified persons? Is that fruit the basis of their salvation? Is that fruit the same thing as "sinless perfection prior to the close of probation?

BFA

 

[Adventtruth]

And faith without works is dead. Book of James.

Does this mean we are saved by our works NO. So how are we to reconcile that the Bible teaches saved by grace through faith, but the Bible also teaches that faith without works is dead?

Yes that is true...but kindly tell us all here on ChristianForums now...Does the bible also teach that works is the cause of our salvation? Now before you answer that question you must understand that there is a big change away from the Lord as the all powerful satisfying God who saves us by His grace through Christ by faith alone, to those who teach that God saves us by something we must do that He will keep us saved. You must understand in putting the "doing for salvation" on what we must do, takes all the glory off of God as our savior, to making much of self and what I have done, which means we are not making much of what God has done, thus robbing HIm of HIs glory in Christ. So which is it....your accomplishments of what you have done for being and keeping salvation, or your making much of God because before you ever did anything, He saved you through Christ alone by His Grace alone...and your new found love for God and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit leads you into righous living?

AT

 

[mva1985]

Yes that is true...but kindly tell us all here on ChristianForums now...Does the bible also teach that works is the cause of our salvation? Now before you answer that question you must understand that there is a big change away from the Lord as the all powerful satisfying God who saves us by His grace through Christ by faith alone, to those who teach that God saves us by something we must do that He will keep us saved. You must understand in putting the "doing for salvation" on what we must do, takes all the glory off of God as our savior, to making much of self and what I have done, which means we are not making much of what God has done, thus robbing HIm of HIs glory in Christ. So which is it....your accomplishments of what you have done for being and keeping salvation, or your making much of God because before you ever did anything, He saved you through Christ alone by His Grace alone...and your new found love for God and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit leads you into righous living?

AT

James 2
"14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

James 2
"14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Whatever James means by "works," it is clear that he is not referring to sinless perfection prior to the close of probation:

"For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all."
​

According to James we are guilty of all. But, according to James, mercy triumphs over judgment:

"So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment."
​

Is it possible that James is creating a distinction between the royal law (as described in Verses 6-11) and "the law of liberty" (described in Verses 12-13)?

Should we conclude that the concepts of "the law of liberty" or "works" refer to the ten commandments?If so, why?

What does James mean by "works?" What does the context of James 2 tell us?

According to James 2, God chose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him? Have you missed that point?

BFA

 

[Adventtruth]

James 2
"14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

But why did you not answer the question? No one is saying works are not needed. Did you read BFA's posting? Did you not understand mine?

Here's my question to you. Is works the foundation of your salvation? Kindly understand the word foundation here.

And what is the roll of the Holy Spirit in all of this once one trust by faith alone? You need to understand what James is saying...He is not saying that works is the basis of your salvtion....only that un-motivated or dead faith produces no fruit. You ever try to beat a dead horse??? Do we just go through the formalities of Chirstian living, or is there a real true motivation for what we do, while the motivation is not the cause of our salvation, it is the means where by the HS bids us to continue and go on. So kindly answer the question....is your works the foundation of your salvation?

AT

 

[mva1985]

But why did you not answer the question? No one is saying works are not needed. Did you read BFA's posting? Did you not understand mine?

Here's my question to you. Is works the foundation of your salvation? Kindly understand the word foundation here.

And what is the roll of the Holy Spirit in all of this once one trust by faith alone? You need to understand what James is saying...He is not saying that works is the basis of your salvtion....only that un-motivated or dead faith produces no fruit. You ever try to beat a dead horse??? Do we just go through the formalities of Chirstian living, or is there a real true motivation for what we do, while the motivation is not the cause of our salvation, it is the means where by the HS bids us to continue and go on. So kindly answer the question....is your works the foundation of your salvation?

AT

I thought the Bible text would answer this question.

Unmotivated or dead faith is not faith at all and thus there is no salvation.

The foundation of salvation is that God reconciled us to Him.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Unmotivated or dead faith is not faith at all and thus there is no salvation. The foundation of salvation is that God reconciled us to Him.

Based on this post, is it fair to suggest that MVA believes that human works are the foundation of salvation? If not, why not?

BFA

 

[mva1985]

Based on this post, is it fair to suggest that MVA believes that human works are the foundation of salvation? If not, why not?

BFA

You are twisting my response to AT...

I don't think we are going to gain anymore by this debate.