What is the Scriptural Basis for Cessationism?

[W2L]

To be saved means to be made whole, it is for body mind and spirit...no Jew would have understood salvation in any other way. The drug addict today will hardly get saved unless he/she is first delivered of addiction.

So if a person goes to a doctor instead of being healed by God, this means they are not saved? Thats basically what you're saying.

I am saying no such a thing.

It sure sounds like thats what you are saying.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

I agree with you on this, and I do believe that miracles happen today, although not near as prolific as it was in the days of the early church (the 1st Century). But the writer of Hebrews excludes himself in the working of signs and wonders which he mentioned in Heb. 2:4, and he does not identify himself as one of the apostles.

The issue is not whether or not miracles happen today. The issue is about whether or not any Christian today HAS one of those gifts of the Spirit mentioned in 1 Cor. 12. One workaround for the lack of evidence is the theory going around that those gifts were temporary bestowments given to individuals at a particular meeting. IOW, the gift was given only for the purpose of that meeting, and after that meeting those individuals no longer had that gift. However, I can't see this as a valid theory, the way that I read the scripture. If this was the case, Paul would not have said "I speak in tongues more than you all." Paul HAD the gift of tongues, and he used it at his own discretion, of course according to God's will.

In my mind, the crux of the issue surrounds modern day Pentecostalism, and whether or not the "tongues" of today is the same kind of "tongues" mentioned in 1 Cor. The question at hand is, does modern day Pentecostalism actually practice the authentic gifts of the Spirit, or is the movement merely playing with religious activity made to look like it? Does the movement have a miraculous spiritual source, or is it a fleshly source?

I do not want an answer to these questions, as they are rhetorical by nature. I am merely stating what I believe to be the core of the issue, and the essence of the debate on cessationism. It does not mean that a cessationist believes that Pentecostalism is evil or of the devil. Neither does it mean that a Pentecostal who exhibits good fruit in their life authenticates the movement's claim.
TD

Hebrews 2:4 maybe Timothy writing, but in the KJV them is in italics. It means the translator added it. The teaching of the laying on of hands, mentioned in the same book is for all not only the apostles who touched Jesus.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

The Greek word translated “prophesying” or “prophecy” in the New Test. properly means to “speak forth” or declare the divine will, to interpret the purposes of God, or to make known in any way the truth of God which is designed to influence people.

Many people misunderstand the gift of prophecy to be the ability to predict the future. While knowing something about the future may sometimes have been an aspect of the gift of prophecy, it was primarily a gift of proclamation (“forth-telling”), not prediction (“fore-telling”).

Jude 3 speaks of …..
“the faith which was once delivered unto the saints”.

In other words, the faith to which we hold has been settled forever, and it does not need the addition or refinement that comes from extra-biblical revelations from men.

It is very important to remember 2 Peter 2:1...…..
"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign LORD who bought them-bringing swift destruction on themselves."

I agree there is some misunderstanding. But there is also legitimate prophecy. The gifts have not passed away any more than prophecy has passed away, because we do not yet know fully, even as we are fully known. That only comes at the end of the church age.

 

[Major1]

I agree there is some misunderstanding. But there is also legitimate prophecy. The gifts have not passed away any more than prophecy has passed away, because we do not yet know fully, even as we are fully known. That only comes at the end of the church age.

The problem with that thought is Revelation 22:18's warning...…………
" warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll."

The Bible records the last words of men. The apostle Paul's last words are found in 2 Timothy, chapter 4, and the last words of the Lord Jesus Christ are contained in the four Gospels.

The last words of the Bible say that God has given us all we need to know and if we ADD to it we will be under the curse of God.

I take the words of Paul in 1 Corinthians 13:8 to be just as true as Rev. 22:18...……….
"Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away."

 

[Major1]

Hebrews 2:4 maybe Timothy writing, but in the KJV them is in italics. It means the translator added it. The teaching of the laying on of hands, mentioned in the same book is for all not only the apostles who touched Jesus.

That is not quite correct my friend.

Before you get to verse 4, we need to read verse #3 for proper CONTEXT...…………..
"How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by THEM that heard him".

Then comes verse #4...………….
"God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?"

The word THEM in verse 4 was indeed added so as to identify those who were the focus of verse #3.

In the beginning of Jesus's ministry, it was the disciples who originally heard Him. THEY saw Him, THEY heard Him, and were witnesses of His resurrection which qualifies THEM as apostles after His resurrection.

THEY ……………were the Apostles.
"both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost"

Mark 16:14...……..
"Afterward he appeared unto the ELEVEN as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen."

 

[Major1]

KJV
Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

The context here looks at the saints of Jude's church in the first century. Not all saints for all time. Jude mentions the past in the next verse. The deliverer here must be Jude. They were converted knowing the fundamental tenets of the faith and prepared for endurance and holiness and that was then. Each new generation needs the delivery of the faith and strengthening... Peter and Paul died in Nero's persecution, however John lived on past the time of Jude's letter and gained even more REVELATION! There is more.

Sola Scriptura is a man made teaching, and while good working it is not perfectly correct. Prophecy is something as quoted, that has the ability to see the secrets of men's hearts. Some youth need this. Not to mention people of any age.

Because there was no publishing and not all could read anyway, prophecy would still be needed for most in Greece, and later in Austria and France and India...

I understand your thesis and I must disagree. Jude quoted Enoch in verses 14 and a5 and Enoch prophesied regarding the false teachers of the LAST DAYS my dear friend.

Enoch dealt with the judgment upon the organized church which will be in total apostasy after the Rapture of believers.

That is confirmed in Jude 18-19...………
"How that they told you there should be mockers in the LAST DAYS, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit".

 

[Major1]

The first apostles apart from Paul had a great experience and revelation, but apostles plant churches, not only bear witness of His resurrection. Today we can still to a lesser extent witness the resurrection.

Not so my dear friend.

We can BELIEVE in the Resurrection by faith but we can not actually SEE it as did the Apostles who were physically with the Lord Jesus.

Acts 1:26...……….
"beginning from John's baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become A WITNESS WITH US OF HIS RESURRECTION."

 

[Major1]

I would put "but when the vastly brighter light comes" as a better translation, paraphrase.

When Jesus returns we will have more than a complete book or a dim mirror revelation, as Jesus said, it will be like lightening, lighting all from east to west at once.

That of course is correct.

I would also say that what we can know about Christ is found in the Bible and not from any speaker who says he has the "gift of knowledge or...a Word from God".

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

I understand your thesis and I must disagree. Jude quoted Enoch in verses 14 and a5 and Enoch prophesied regarding the false teachers of the LAST DAYS my dear friend.

Enoch dealt with the judgment upon the organized church which will be in total apostasy after the Rapture of believers.

That is confirmed in Jude 18-19...………
"How that they told you there should be mockers in the LAST DAYS, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit".

No Jude was addressing first century people and about keeping the faith, later Jude mentions the future verse 15... Jude does not say that the faith was once and fully and lastly handed to them and all saints, then and now.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Not so my dear friend.

We can BELIEVE in the Resurrection by faith but we can not actually SEE it as did the Apostles who were physically with the Lord Jesus.

Acts 1:26...……….
"beginning from John's baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become A WITNESS WITH US OF HIS RESURRECTION."

Matthew is not known to have seen Jesus with wounds alive again. Maybe he did. So to become a witness he may have seen a healing, or heard the testimony.

If today you are healed from an ill, by faith in Jesus, you become a witness that Jesus is alive and heals today.

 

[Major1]

The 12 apostles had a great revelation of God and special places in God and grace. But without the office of apostle, church planting is slow and crumbling. Church planter ministers have the role of the apostles, apart from knowing Jesus in the flesh. If apostles stop, church growth depends on believers having children.

Apostles are needed in China and India, and Russia, and Africa...

I am sorry my friend, but what you want is not what God says we can have.

Yes, there are many church planters. I have myself started a couple of them but I am NOT an apostle. There are NO apostles today as there is no office In the church for either one.

There are those who claim to be apostles and prophets by their own word. Others claim it by showing their signs, wonders and miracles. This so-called signs and wonders movement is part of an effort to restore what they understood to be the five-fold ministry described in Ephesians 4:11.

The proliferators of the movement claim that these dynamics are what is necessary for the church to have power. In actuality, those who lay claim to this ministry today are operating under a misunderstanding of apostles and prophets of the Bible. The Lord confirmed His signs to the apostles' words to show a transition of authority from Israel and its priesthood to the apostles who were laying down the foundation for the church, a new entity.

This unique anointing testified to Israel and to the gentiles a new order of leadership, the demonstration of spiritual authority was transferred to the church Christ body. Becoming aware of what the Bible says about these positions in the early church can help us guard against misleading teachings in the church today.

Validated by signs and miracles, the apostles deemed the faith for the whole Church and established the written word by inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Once the scriptures were completed, the Church had all that was necessary in the area of revelational truth. The apostles' instructions were in words, then put to paper for all succeeding generations on how to live in obedience to the faith.
Apostles & Prophets

Once a foundation is laid down and a house is built, we don't rebuild the foundation.(Eph.2:20) Neither should we rip apart the house that the Lord has built.

 

[Major1]

No Jude was addressing first century people and about keeping the faith, after Jude mentions the future verse 15...

Always a blessing to talk with you on the Scriptures.

I agree with you that Jude was speaking to the early church. But that in no way means that that rest of his warnings are to rejected.

The Book of Jude is an important book for us today because it is written for the end times, for the end of the church age. The church age began at the Day of Pentecost. Jude is the only book given entirely to the great apostasy. Jude writes that evil works are the evidence of apostasy.

Yes, He admonished the early church to contend for the faith, for there were tares among the wheat. But False prophets are in the church and the saints are in danger TODAY.

IMO, Jude is a small but important book worthy of study, written for the Christian of today.

 

[W2L]

People look outwardly for teachers and prophets to guide them. They should be looking within, letting the word guide them.

 

[Major1]

Matthew is not known to have seen Jesus with wounds alive again. Maybe he did. So to become a witness he may have seen a healing, or heard the testimony.

If today you are healed from an ill, by faith in Jesus, you become a witness that Jesus is alive and heals today.

Agreed. You are healed by GOD not a faith healer hitting you or blowing his breath on you as if he was manipulating the Holy Spirit.

I never said the God does not heal today. HE DOES!

James 5:13-16...…..
"Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms. Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much."

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

I am sorry my friend, but what you want is not what God says we can have.

Yes, there are many church planters. I have myself started a couple of them but I am NOT an apostle. There are NO apostles today as there is no office In the church for either one.

There are those who claim to be apostles and prophets by their own word. Others claim it by showing their signs, wonders and miracles. This so-called signs and wonders movement is part of an effort to restore what they understood to be the five-fold ministry described in Ephesians 4:11.

The proliferators of the movement claim that these dynamics are what is necessary for the church to have power. In actuality, those who lay claim to this ministry today are operating under a misunderstanding of apostles and prophets of the Bible. The Lord confirmed His signs to the apostles' words to show a transition of authority from Israel and its priesthood to the apostles who were laying down the foundation for the church, a new entity.

This unique anointing testified to Israel and to the gentiles a new order of leadership, the demonstration of spiritual authority was transferred to the church Christ body. Becoming aware of what the Bible says about these positions in the early church can help us guard against misleading teachings in the church today.

Validated by signs and miracles, the apostles deemed the faith for the whole Church and established the written word by inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Once the scriptures were completed, the Church had all that was necessary in the area of revelational truth. The apostles' instructions were in words, then put to paper for all succeeding generations on how to live in obedience to the faith.
Apostles & Prophets

Once a foundation is laid down and a house is built, we don't rebuild the foundation.(Eph.2:20) Neither should we rip apart the house that the Lord has built.

New apostles, like Paul and later century apostles have a different task and can bear witness to experiencing that Jesus is alive. The church after Nero was stymied. Paul taught Timothy about coming doctrines of demons. Food regulations, but obviously torturing heretics to death was demonic. And later protestants tortured what they called witches.

These things made converting pagans near impossible. David Brainerd began to break through. And John Wesley... only when Christians would be real Christians and love so called witches and heretics, being pagans or idolaters, could church grow and breathe again. So we begin to see the restoration of apostles, like in Acts 17:27, they seek God and God set the times and places for them, to serve God and make disciples of all nations. Each time and place a unique vision, calling and plan. Witnesses with signs and wonders from the same Spirit. Wesley, apostle of social holiness.

Timothy also learned that we ought ignore "word striving". Changing context based understandings on the meaning of one word in the passage. And Paul mentioned endless genealogies.

Revelation ends with the warning not to add or remove from the book. Although John was only referring to Revelation and not the whole Bible. Luther's Bible has 66 books, the older one, the Catholic had Tobit and Maccabees 1 and 2... If you remove the teaching about the Holy Spirit from the NT, then is when you are in trouble. And The Spirit is here now and Jesus sent Him from Heaven. We need be disciples of the Holy Spirit, here to the end of the age, and the ends of the Earth.

 

[tdidymas]

Hebrews 2:4 maybe Timothy writing, but in the KJV them is in italics. It means the translator added it. The teaching of the laying on of hands, mentioned in the same book is for all not only the apostles who touched Jesus.

Observe the whole context of the passage. In verse 3, he says "them that heard," which is an exclusion of himself. The reason why the KJV added "them" to v. 4 was to simplify the meaning of who he was talking about, as it was expressed in v. 3. Your point, then, has a null effect. He did exclude himself from those miraculous actions.

And besides, we are not talking about the laying on of hands or any other non-miraculous action. We are talking about the miraculous actions of the gifts of the Spirit mentioned in 1 Cor. A miracle is an event that defies the natural workings of creation and man. Example in point is that when the apostles spoke in tongues in Acts 3 and elsewhere, it was a miraculous event, in that the languages they spoke were not anything they had learned naturally. And such was proven miraculous by the fact that people understood those languages which were unknown to the speakers. The debate today concerns whether or not modern day glossalalia is a miraculous event, among other claims of the movement.

We also are not talking about Providence. This is where God uses natural means to accomplish something, whereas it would not be accomplished by mere natural order. An example is Pro 21:1 "The king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the LORD; He turns it wherever He wishes." There are hundreds of examples of this in scripture. This is not miraculous, although it is supernatural in origin. In contrast, the gifts of the Spirit were miraculous, and were proven to be so.

So then, any debate about prophecy (for example) is, in my opinion, not addressing the crux of the issue. The reason is that preaching doesn't necessarily meet the criteria of a miraculous event. In the gift of prophecy, things were revealed supernaturally by God - that is, things that the person could not possibly have known naturally. One example is the prophet Agabus prophesying that there would be a famine. This is not a mere prediction or educated guess. God told him, he prophesied it, and it came to pass. Clearly such prophecy is a miraculous event, and is proven by the fact that it happens the way it was told. If someone tells the secrets of a person's heart, that would be miraculous, at least to the listener. And such would also not be an educated guess like modern day psychics do, who prey on peoples' ignorance.

However, when I preach, I am very sure that God is directing me. My preaching is not part of my personality. Therefore I categorize it as Providence, not miraculous, even though I believe it is supernatural in origin. I am not receiving any new revelations from God, but am speaking what I did learn naturally by studying scripture. The difference is that I'm not a good speaker or debater in the natural and spontaneous sense, and hardly ever speak or contribute to conversations, according to my natural personality. But when preaching, the words flow out as if I have become a different person at that time. Some people might say that's miraculous, but I do not categorize it as such, since it is not defying the natural order. But in my mind it definitely is in the category of Providence.

We are also not talking about miracles in general, as most cessationists I have met do believe that miracles happen today. The difference is that if God grants a miracle to an individual today, it is a one-time event, and the people laying hands or praying don't HAVE a miraculous gift, and might never experience a miraculous event again the rest of their life. In the 1 Cor. description of the gifts, an individual HAS that gift, and can exercise it at any time (and should only be done whenever they feel it is God's will to do so). Such criteria of God's will in the exercise of those gifts are laid out in the epistle.

The point I am trying to make is that this whole debate about cessationism is about the gifts of the Spirit in 1 Cor. being miraculous gifts, that those who had those gifts could exercise them at their discretion, because they were gifts bestowed on them as individuals. And that the modern day Pentecostal (or Charismatic) movement claims that those same gifts are "reclaimed" and that they are exercising them. Therefore in my mind, the issue is about people having gifts of not only supernatural origin, but also miraculous, which are defying the natural order. Whereas cessationists are claiming to observe that those practices by the movement are not miraculous.

Perhaps I misunderstand this whole debate. Do I have the issue straight or not?
TD

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

People look outwardly for teachers and prophets to guide them. They should be looking within, letting the word guide them.

Jesus was tested with scripture quoted to him. Jesus was given wisdom and led by the Spirit, and thus was able to overcome the deceptions of Satan. A boy and scripture and there are a lot of questions. In his aid is the Holy Spirit teacher of all truth, and an introduction is good, such as from dad or a youth pastor.

 

[Major1]

Matthew is not known to have seen Jesus with wounds alive again. Maybe he did. So to become a witness he may have seen a healing, or heard the testimony.

If today you are healed from an ill, by faith in Jesus, you become a witness that Jesus is alive and heals today.

My dear friend, I have experienced the miracle healing by God.!!!!!

Do not consider that because I am teaching something different from what you have been taught that I do not believe in the miracles of God.

He was with Jesus. It seems to me that you are asking...………
"Is Matthews account impeachable".

It is clear to me that Matthew establishes himself as an eyewitness based on the internal evidence of his account. Though he doesn't name himself, the author reports in the first person about events that he sees and participates in.

John personally witnessed the death of Jesus and both Matthew and John testify they saw him on a number of occasions after his death and burial.

John 19:30...…….
"When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit."

Matthew 28:16-17...……...
"Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted."

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Observe the whole context of the passage. In verse 3, he says "them that heard," which is an exclusion of himself. The reason why the KJV added "them" to v. 4 was to simplify the meaning of who he was talking about, as it was expressed in v. 3. Your point, then, has a null effect. He did exclude himself from those miraculous actions.

And besides, we are not talking about the laying on of hands or any other non-miraculous action. We are talking about the miraculous actions of the gifts of the Spirit mentioned in 1 Cor. A miracle is an event that defies the natural workings of creation and man. Example in point is that when the apostles spoke in tongues in Acts 3 and elsewhere, it was a miraculous event, in that the languages they spoke were not anything they had learned naturally. And such was proven miraculous by the fact that people understood those languages which were unknown to the speakers. The debate today concerns whether or not modern day glossalalia is a miraculous event, among other claims of the movement.

We also are not talking about Providence. This is where God uses natural means to accomplish something, whereas it would not be accomplished by mere natural order. An example is Pro 21:1 "The king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the LORD; He turns it wherever He wishes." There are hundreds of examples of this in scripture. This is not miraculous, although it is supernatural in origin. In contrast, the gifts of the Spirit were miraculous, and were proven to be so.

So then, any debate about prophecy (for example) is, in my opinion, not addressing the crux of the issue. The reason is that preaching doesn't necessarily meet the criteria of a miraculous event. In the gift of prophecy, things were revealed supernaturally by God - that is, things that the person could not possibly have known naturally. One example is the prophet Agabus prophesying that there would be a famine. This is not a mere prediction or educated guess. God told him, he prophesied it, and it came to pass. Clearly such prophecy is a miraculous event, and is proven by the fact that it happens the way it was told. If someone tells the secrets of a person's heart, that would be miraculous, at least to the listener. And such would also not be an educated guess like modern day psychics do, who prey on peoples' ignorance.

However, when I preach, I am very sure that God is directing me. My preaching is not part of my personality. Therefore I categorize it as Providence, not miraculous, even though I believe it is supernatural in origin. I am not receiving any new revelations from God, but am speaking what I did learn naturally by studying scripture. The difference is that I'm not a good speaker or debater in the natural and spontaneous sense, and hardly ever speak or contribute to conversations, according to my natural personality. But when preaching, the words flow out as if I have become a different person at that time. Some people might say that's miraculous, but I do not categorize it as such, since it is not defying the natural order. But in my mind it definitely is in the category of Providence.

We are also not talking about miracles in general, as most cessationists I have met do believe that miracles happen today. The difference is that if God grants a miracle to an individual today, it is a one-time event, and the people laying hands or praying don't HAVE a miraculous gift, and might never experience a miraculous event again the rest of their life. In the 1 Cor. description of the gifts, an individual HAS that gift, and can exercise it at any time (and should only be done whenever they feel it is God's will to do so). Such criteria of God's will in the exercise of those gifts are laid out in the epistle.

The point I am trying to make is that this whole debate about cessationism is about the gifts of the Spirit in 1 Cor. being miraculous gifts, that those who had those gifts could exercise them at their discretion, because they were gifts bestowed on them as individuals. And that the modern day Pentecostal (or Charismatic) movement claims that those same gifts are "reclaimed" and that they are exercising them. Therefore in my mind, the issue is about people having gifts of not only supernatural origin, but also miraculous, which are defying the natural order. Whereas cessationists are claiming to observe that those practices by the movement are not miraculous.

Perhaps I misunderstand this whole debate. Do I have the issue straight or not?
TD

Our definition of miracles and miraculous gifts are different.

The laying on of hands is for people who have received an impartation. If a youth lays on you you need be careful of what happens. But if a mature Christian with a clean heart and an anointing lays hands on you, you could healed or set free from an addiction. I experienced some of that. Testifying is Biblical.

The anointing as Paul said, using the term charism, can be transferred. Also Moses did this to make judges. By the laying on of hands.

Heb 2:3 how shall we escape, having neglected so great salvation? which a beginning receiving—to be spoken through the Lord—by those having heard was confirmed to us,
Heb 2:4 God also bearing joint-witness both with signs and wonders, and manifold powers, and distributions of the Holy Spirit, according to His will. YLT

Heb 2:3 How, then, shall we escape if we pay no attention to such a great salvation? The Lord himself first announced this salvation, and those who heard him proved to us that it is true.
Heb 2:4 At the same time God added his witness to theirs by performing all kinds of miracles and wonders and by distributing the gifts of the Holy Spirit according to his will. GNB

 

[Major1]

Observe the whole context of the passage. In verse 3, he says "them that heard," which is an exclusion of himself. The reason why the KJV added "them" to v. 4 was to simplify the meaning of who he was talking about, as it was expressed in v. 3. Your point, then, has a null effect. He did exclude himself from those miraculous actions.

And besides, we are not talking about the laying on of hands or any other non-miraculous action. We are talking about the miraculous actions of the gifts of the Spirit mentioned in 1 Cor. A miracle is an event that defies the natural workings of creation and man. Example in point is that when the apostles spoke in tongues in Acts 3 and elsewhere, it was a miraculous event, in that the languages they spoke were not anything they had learned naturally. And such was proven miraculous by the fact that people understood those languages which were unknown to the speakers. The debate today concerns whether or not modern day glossalalia is a miraculous event, among other claims of the movement.

We also are not talking about Providence. This is where God uses natural means to accomplish something, whereas it would not be accomplished by mere natural order. An example is Pro 21:1 "The king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the LORD; He turns it wherever He wishes." There are hundreds of examples of this in scripture. This is not miraculous, although it is supernatural in origin. In contrast, the gifts of the Spirit were miraculous, and were proven to be so.

So then, any debate about prophecy (for example) is, in my opinion, not addressing the crux of the issue. The reason is that preaching doesn't necessarily meet the criteria of a miraculous event. In the gift of prophecy, things were revealed supernaturally by God - that is, things that the person could not possibly have known naturally. One example is the prophet Agabus prophesying that there would be a famine. This is not a mere prediction or educated guess. God told him, he prophesied it, and it came to pass. Clearly such prophecy is a miraculous event, and is proven by the fact that it happens the way it was told. If someone tells the secrets of a person's heart, that would be miraculous, at least to the listener. And such would also not be an educated guess like modern day psychics do, who prey on peoples' ignorance.

However, when I preach, I am very sure that God is directing me. My preaching is not part of my personality. Therefore I categorize it as Providence, not miraculous, even though I believe it is supernatural in origin. I am not receiving any new revelations from God, but am speaking what I did learn naturally by studying scripture. The difference is that I'm not a good speaker or debater in the natural and spontaneous sense, and hardly ever speak or contribute to conversations, according to my natural personality. But when preaching, the words flow out as if I have become a different person at that time. Some people might say that's miraculous, but I do not categorize it as such, since it is not defying the natural order. But in my mind it definitely is in the category of Providence.

We are also not talking about miracles in general, as most cessationists I have met do believe that miracles happen today. The difference is that if God grants a miracle to an individual today, it is a one-time event, and the people laying hands or praying don't HAVE a miraculous gift, and might never experience a miraculous event again the rest of their life. In the 1 Cor. description of the gifts, an individual HAS that gift, and can exercise it at any time (and should only be done whenever they feel it is God's will to do so). Such criteria of God's will in the exercise of those gifts are laid out in the epistle.

The point I am trying to make is that this whole debate about cessationism is about the gifts of the Spirit in 1 Cor. being miraculous gifts, that those who had those gifts could exercise them at their discretion, because they were gifts bestowed on them as individuals. And that the modern day Pentecostal (or Charismatic) movement claims that those same gifts are "reclaimed" and that they are exercising them. Therefore in my mind, the issue is about people having gifts of not only supernatural origin, but also miraculous, which are defying the natural order. Whereas cessationists are claiming to observe that those practices by the movement are not miraculous.

Perhaps I misunderstand this whole debate. Do I have the issue straight or not?
TD

You are very correct my friend.

The "Sign Gifts" were given to the ELEVEN so that they could do what was needed to establish the church.

THEY could and did what Jesus could do and did. THEY healed the sick, spoke in tongues, received knowledge from the Lord Jesus, raised the dead, drank filthy water and survived snake bites.

However, no matter what is said, there is not ONE SINGLE verse in the Bible that declares the office of the Apostle was to be continued after the last one, John died.

The people who do the tongues and accept the temporary healings and believe in miracles from men do so because that's WANT TO DO and NOT because the Scriptures tell them to.

Personally, I do not care if they do those things. It is their choice to do so and is not a gift or a command from God. That is ALL I am saying and if anyone wants to do those things...…..Go right ahead and do them.