what is the sabbath?

[Inquisition]

sometimes I wonder if people operate under the assumption that they can burry the opposition under the weight of their words in discussions such as this. I will bow out. Too much reading about trivial things for my tastes. No one is saved or unsaved based on how they view the sabbath.

 

[jarrettcpr]

I understand what you mean. But if you have learnt something from them then you can share it with me without having to quote excerpts from them. And you must not say that they are smarter than you. They can be wrong as well.

Yes, but some things can't be paraphrased. Or better yet, shouldn't be.

The fact that he tells them to pray their flight not be on the Sabbath means that he expected that the sabbath would be being kept at that time.

Exactly, but he doesn't say it will be the Christians that would be keeping it.

Jesus did reject their strict traditions but not the Sabbath. Jesus brought reform to the way they used to see the Sabbath. He did not violate it in his eyes but in theirs. They understood it wrongly and he tried to get them to understand it.

Alright, we agree.

Its not the 7th day Sabbath being referred to here but the additional sabbaths made because of the ordinances that were done. Remember that all of this is a result of the handwriting of ordinances being blotted out. The handwriting of ordinances were against us. This is the book of the law written by Moses and placed on the side of the ark whereas the 10 commandments were written by God and placed inside the ark under the mercy seat. That book of the law included those additional sabbaths only coming into play because of those ordinances which pointed to Christ. Since those ordinances are blotted out, these other sabbaths are no longer relevant.

I have heard this argument, but I'm personally against something you have to do (legalism). I like using this quote...

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage." (Galatians 5:1)

To me being told you must rest on this day or do this and that on a particular day is bondage IMO. Whatever one wants to call it, it's definitely not freedom.

Again this is a reference to the additional sabbath days. This is because the 7th day Sabbath was blessed and sactified and hallowed. Therefore, it is different to all other days by God's own work. The additional sabbath days were given significance because of the ordinances done on those days. For those who still believe in those ordinances and still practice them, they would esteem those days above the rest. For the man who does not he would not esteem them above the others. Notice that it is about how a man views it rather than the actual nature of the day. A man esteeming a day above another suggests that that day is not really above another day. The Sabbath was made holy and makes it different to the others. It will not change regardless of how a man esteems it.

Like I said before a command to keep the Sabbath was not necessary because it was being done. Just by Jesus saying that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath clearly suggests that he was in favor of it being kept properly.

We can't know that (especially once Jesus died), that's an assumption. All we know it was Jesus being Jesus. Rebuking and reminding the people and elders what the Sabbath truly was, and what you could do on that day. Jesus throughout the Gospels rebuked the priests, elders, and/or the Pharisees. Especially how they viewed the Law, and what the Law actually meant and stood for.

Acts 15 dealt with the issues that affected the conscience of a gentile believer the most because of their pagan background. Paul believed that they should focus on helping them get over their pagan beliefs first and foremost. The fear of eating foods being offered to idols was one of their biggest problems. Paul addressed that in Romans 14, I Cor 8 and I Cor 10. He advised that they stay away completely from foods offered to idols at that early stage, but in other parts we see him take a more firm stand against it knowing that such a fear was due to a lack of faith. The gentiles were not told in that council about stealing, killing, taking God's name in vain, idolatry or any of the other things that are important. They already knew that and they must have not had any trouble with those things. The Sabbath also did not seem to bother them as many times in acts we see the gentiles coming into the synagogue on the Sabbath.

Again though, all through the epistles there is no command to keep the Sabbath. Though there is a whole bunch of sins listed, and breaking the Sabbath is never mentioned.

There is this quote in Acts...

"And they are informed of you, that you teach all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs." (Acts 21:21)

We know the Sabbath was a custom given to the Israelites.

Deuteronomy 5:2-3 says, "The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, with all those of us alive here today."

Nehemiah 9:13-14 says, "You came down on Mount Sinai; you spoke to them from heaven. You gave them regulations and laws that are just and right, and decrees and commands that are good. You made known to them your holy sabbath and gave them commands, decrees and laws through your servant Moses."

Ezekiel says something similar: “Wherefore I caused them [Israel] to go forth out of the land of Egypt, and brought them into the wilderness. And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them. Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the Lord that sanctify them” (Ezekiel 20:10–12). Here again we find that God gave the children of Israel the Sabbath after He brought them out of Egypt. He says nothing about their knowing this before that time and His having to remind them.

There is another biblical proof that the Sabbath could not have been a creation ordinance given to all humanity. In Exodus 31:12–17, we read, “And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you. Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.” God says the Sabbath is a sign between Him and the children of Israel. Ezekiel 20:12 and 20 also say that God gave Israel the Sabbath as a sign between Him and them. If the Sabbath had been given to all humanity at Creation, it would not be unique to Israel and, therefore, it could not act as a special sign between God and Israel.

I will address your second response to my other post, tomorrow. It's late over here. lol

 

[NaLuvena]

I also pointed out that there are sabbaths in addition to the weekly sabbath.

I didn't see anything about the "Sabbatical" Festivals in your post.
Maybe you could repeat it?

What about Christ? How did he observe the sabbath?

He kept it according to the Law.

 

[NaLuvena]

Alright, I'm starting to cool off a little. The sweat is starting to subside.

I can't remember, but I think it's in the Book of Revelation, that says something along the lines, the bad will be burnt, and only the pure will be left, and etc. Then there is scripture that I can't remember that says some will barely make it through after the fire. Something like that. We can make another thread regarding 'rewards'.

I want the feast, and everything else.

I still don't fully get the rewards when based on individual merit. The thing about that is if you die young, then your rewards would be rather small than if you lived longer. Since, is it much more likely an older person has done many more deeds than the teenager.

I'm against legalism. If you're told you have to do this and if you don't then it's a sin, then I'm completely against it. This would be especially true in the sense of setting aside a day of rest. Personally every day is a rest for me. If anything people would want to encourage the keeping of the Sabbath, b/c it tells people we're allowed to be lazy. Though, I'm sure they would have a better spin on it.

It's not legalistic to keep the commands, or to obey what God says in the Bible.

Even after accepting Christ, we still sin. However, because we already have an enduring sacrifice for our sins (Jesus) we no longer have to go through the whole sin sacrifice but only have to confess our sins. Even repentance is no longer required here, merely an acceptance that we have committed a mistake.

So, all along the rest you refer to is the New Earth aka Heaven/Paradise? When I view the word rest, I see it as a way of salvation. We are not saved by the law, and those who think they are as Paul says is cursed. We're saved by faith. So, there is no need to work(abiding by the law) to earn our salvation. That doesn't mean we rest(do nothing) until we die. It doesn't mean we shouldn't preach the gospel to others, or we now don't have to raise our children correctly, and etc. Our rest is in Jesus b/c he accomplished and fulfilled the law which was imputed to us. In essence, we believers have perfectly obeyed the law(B/c of the last sentence given). There's no need to set aside a day for rest. Our rest is completed.

I agree with you up to the "Our rest is in Jesus". However, we have not entered/received that rest yet.

Jesus has fulfilled the Law, and obtained the reward. the rest is there, waiting for us, however we have not entered into it. That is why there are warnings (even in Hebrews 4) telling us to ensure that we enter this rest.

Hebrews 4:11

Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.

You said when you see the word rest, you see the way to salvation. If you see the way, are you saved, or on the way to being saved?
Note that the writer of Hebrews also included himself in this group who had to "make every effort". Even he, whoever he was, was not in the rest yet.

I think for that given circumstance that it's not far fetched to think that. People lie to God and the church all the time, but we don't see people dying the very instant they do it. I don't really know (if God's judgments are time sensitive), though it's best not to lie to God and others.

I'll have to read/meditate on this a little more.

LOL

 

[NaLuvena]

There is nothing in the bible nullifying the Sabbath nor any command to honor the day of his resurrection.

It also needs to be understood that the 10 commandments have a different authority than the book of the law written by Moses. The bible itself shows this different. Whereas the book of the law and all its ordinances and sacrfices have been blotted out, the commandments are eternal. They are God's moral laws and God does not change, therefore his morals does not change either. It is much easier to give God our money than our time. On the 7th day of creation God blessed the Sabbath day and sanctified it. To sanctify means to set apart for holy use. No other day was given that treatment. Did God do that for a show? He honoures his own Sabbath in the at his death, burial and resurrection, he rested in the tomb on the Sabbath.

I just wanted to point out that the Bible did say something about nullifying the commandments and the Sabbath.

Matthew 5:18

I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

The Law will change according to the conditions in that verse, but this is only when heaven and earth disappear.

Also, by saying that the 10 commandments have a different (I assume you mean higher) authority than the rest of the Book of the Law, you ignore the fact that the greatest commandment(s) are not found in the 10.

The Law is made to benefit man (the new man in Christ), not to be an overlord to us.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Exactly, but he doesn't say it will be the Christians that would be keeping it.

Who else would? Jewish Christianity was very popular at the time when Jerusalem was destroyed.

I have heard this argument, but I'm personally against something you have to do (legalism). I like using this quote...

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage." (Galatians 5:1)

To me being told you must rest on this day or do this and that on a particular day is bondage IMO. Whatever one wants to call it, it's definitely not freedom.

Was it bondage for Jesus when he kept the Sabbath on earth? None of God's commandments puts you in bondage.

1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

We can't know that (especially once Jesus died), that's an assumption. All we know it was Jesus being Jesus. Rebuking and reminding the people and elders what the Sabbath truly was, and what you could do on that day. Jesus throughout the Gospels rebuked the priests, elders, and/or the Pharisees. Especially how they viewed the Law, and what the Law actually meant and stood for.

We can know it because he always was in the synagogue on the Sabbath and he did good deeds on the Sabbath to help those who were in need. That is what the Sabbath was for he says. He showed them what it truly was therefore he must have approved of it being kept even after he died.

Again though, all through the epistles there is no command to keep the Sabbath. Though there is a whole bunch of sins listed, and breaking the Sabbath is never mentioned.

Every sin that exist is not listed. It is true it is not specifically mentioned with the lists of sins but that does not make it right to violate it. It was a command from God. When you break one law you are guilty of all. Which law? The law of liberty according to james and not the law of bondage according to you.

There is this quote in Acts...

"And they are informed of you, that you teach all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs." (Acts 21:21)

We know the Sabbath was a custom given to the Israelites.

Deuteronomy 5:2-3 says, "The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, with all those of us alive here today."

Nehemiah 9:13-14 says, "You came down on Mount Sinai; you spoke to them from heaven. You gave them regulations and laws that are just and right, and decrees and commands that are good. You made known to them your holy sabbath and gave them commands, decrees and laws through your servant Moses."

Ezekiel says something similar: “Wherefore I caused them [Israel] to go forth out of the land of Egypt, and brought them into the wilderness. And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them. Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the Lord that sanctify them” (Ezekiel 20:10–12). Here again we find that God gave the children of Israel the Sabbath after He brought them out of Egypt. He says nothing about their knowing this before that time and His having to remind them.

There is another biblical proof that the Sabbath could not have been a creation ordinance given to all humanity. In Exodus 31:12–17, we read, “And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you. Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.” God says the Sabbath is a sign between Him and the children of Israel. Ezekiel 20:12 and 20 also say that God gave Israel the Sabbath as a sign between Him and them. If the Sabbath had been given to all humanity at Creation, it would not be unique to Israel and, therefore, it could not act as a special sign between God and Israel.

I addressed the reason for the special significance placed on the Sabbath as a sign. The Sabbath is not an ordinance. Neither was the Sabbath a custom. What you do on that day could be a custom. It was Jesus' custom to go into the synagogue on the Sabbath. It was also his habit to heal on the Sabbath. The additional sabbaths were not ordinances or customs either, but what happened on those days would be the custom or ordinance. What Jesus had to correct was the way the Jews practiced Sabbath keeping. To them it was just a list of do's and don'ts. It was never meant to be that way.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

I just wanted to point out that the Bible did say something about nullifying the commandments and the Sabbath.

Matthew 5:18

I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

The Law will change according to the conditions in that verse, but this is only when heaven and earth disappear.

Also, by saying that the 10 commandments have a different (I assume you mean higher) authority than the rest of the Book of the Law, you ignore the fact that the greatest commandment(s) are not found in the 10.

The Law is made to benefit man (the new man in Christ), not to be an overlord to us.

The command to love was not exactly a law but more of a principle. It will apply to any law given, whether it was a 10 commandment law or another law. Love was supposed to be at the center of it.

 

[NaLuvena]

The 7th day Sabbath is not a shadow of the promised rest because:

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

We shall keep the Sabbath in that resting place.


And because:

God made the Sabbath at creation when there was a perfect world and no sin. Adam and Eve had the perfect resting place at that time. They did not need a future rest at that time until sin came. But the Sabbath was there when all was perfect. It therefore does not conflict with the future rest but abides in it like it was in the beginning.

There are one and the same thing, the Sabbath (7th day) and the rest.

As there will be no day or night in the new Heaven, but God's glory will be the light always, there will be one eternal period of light forever.

Revelation 21
23The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there.

No night means one really really, really, long day.....

I'm betting that the last day this Earth will see will be the 6th day, and the sons of God will be revealed on that day, perfectly in line with the type, Man being created on the 6th day in Creation. This is my opinion...

 

[NaLuvena]

The command to love was not exactly a law but more of a principle. It will apply to any law given, whether it was a 10 commandment law or another law. Love was supposed to be at the center of it.

Not sure how this ties in with the law being modified/nullified at some point in the future.....

Also, we are commanded to love. It is not a principle.

Matthew 22

37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Not sure how this ties in with the law being modified/nullified at some point in the future.....

Also, we are commanded to love. It is not a principle.

Matthew 22

37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment.

It is a command. I am not saying its not. I am just saying that its also a principle to guide one to keep all the other laws. When the above law was given in Deuteronomy, it was the first law given before a series of laws in Deuteronomy 6 to show that upon that law will hang or rest all the other laws, not only in that immediate passage but even in the 10 commandments.

 

[jarrettcpr]

Who else would? Jewish Christianity was very popular at the time when Jerusalem was destroyed.

I would have to be shown the stats of Jews, Jewish converts to Christianity, and Gentiles who became Christians. Also, as we see in Acts and throughout the NT, we see many Christian Jews still clinging onto the the Law, and Paul had to remind them that whoever did so was cursed. Once again, Jesus didn't come out and say I'd expect Christians do have to keep the Sabbath.

Was it bondage for Jesus when he kept the Sabbath on earth? None of God's commandments puts you in bondage.

Yes, Jesus was under law and had to completely fulfill the law. So, he was clearly not free, therefore under bondage. The Sabbath was about submitting. Remember the guy who I believe in Exodus was out gathering wood. He was killed, I don't believe this is going out on a limb and saying what he had was not freedom.

1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Yes, but do we keep the Mitzvah (613 commandments), 10 Commandments, The two greatest commandments which is what Jesus taught us and which... "On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets", or is it all the commandments on Webers_Home thread called 'Christianity's Commandments' which has hundreds of them?

We can know it because he always was in the synagogue on the Sabbath and he did good deeds on the Sabbath to help those who were in need. That is what the Sabbath was for he says. He showed them what it truly was therefore he must have approved of it being kept even after he died.

Also, Jesus was there for the same reason Paul went to the Synagogues throughout the Book of Acts, b/c there would be a larger crowd to preach to. It's not enough to say that it means that Christians are to keep the Sabbath as a day or rest and/or worship.

Every sin that exist is not listed. It is true it is not specifically mentioned with the lists of sins but that does not make it right to violate it. It was a command from God. When you break one law you are guilty of all. Which law? The law of liberty according to james and not the law of bondage according to you.

Evil thoughts, fornication, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness, unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil, full of envy, strife, deceit, malice, slanderers, haters of God, swindlers, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, untrustworthy, unmerciful, immorality, impurity, sensuality, liars, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, selfish ambiton, homosexual offenders, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, revilers, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, and etc.

No mentioning... breakers of the Sabbath.

The only thing I said that was bondage was having to do this or that on a particular day (the Sabbath). When you're not allowed to pick up wood on a particular day, that's bondage, if you don't wish to call it that then we can still agree it's not freedom.

I addressed the reason for the special significance placed on the Sabbath as a sign. The Sabbath is not an ordinance. Neither was the Sabbath a custom. What you do on that day could be a custom. It was Jesus' custom to go into the synagogue on the Sabbath. It was also his habit to heal on the Sabbath. The additional sabbaths were not ordinances or customs either, but what happened on those days would be the custom or ordinance. What Jesus had to correct was the way the Jews practiced Sabbath keeping. To them it was just a list of do's and don'ts. It was never meant to be that way.

The Sabbath is an ordinance.

or⋅di⋅nance [awr-dn-uh

ns]

–noun

1. an authoritative rule or law; a decree or command.
2. a public injunction or regulation
3. something believed to have been ordained, as by a deity or destiny.

 

[jarrettcpr]

Love fulfills the law. I am not misconstruing the scripture. Paul lists the last 6 commandments and says that if we have love for our neighbor we will fulfill the law. The last 6 commandments show love for God and they are summed up by simple saying "Thou shall love thy neighbour as thyself". Love does not supercede the law but fulfills it. So if you have love you will fulfill the law.

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Thou shall love thy neighbor as thyself is not a replacement for the commandments but a summary. If you do that one you will keep all others that hang on it. The Same goes for "Thou shall love the Lord thy God will all thy heart". Those 2 laws summarizes the entire commandments. The first 4 commandments show love for God while the last 6 show love for man.

If you look at the passage properly you will notice that Jesus was not giving them a new commandments but restating what was given before. In fact he quoted from the Old Testament.

Mat 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

The man asked which commandments was the greatest in the entire law. The law refers here to all the writings of Moses.

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.

Jesus gave the man his answer by quoting the command contained in the law which was the greatest.

Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

It was the greatest because if this law was not observed, you cannot keep the others and even if you did it will not be for the right reason. So the notion that Jesus gave a new law is false. He merely quoted from the law, a command that was there before.


Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Again he quoted from the law:

Lev 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

John also acknowledged that the law of love was not something that was new.

2Jo 1:5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.
2Jo 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

We agree on that. I misunderstood you and the quote that was being used. I was under the impression we fulfill the Law out of love, instead of love is the fulfillment of the the Law.

Because faith is what will get us into the promised land. Our eternal rest in heaven.

Once we believe, we don't have to wait until death to receive eternal life, but we receive it once we believe. Some of the Israelites failed to enter the rest b/c they didn't have faith.

It is true that the bible never says that God commanded Adam and Eve to keep the Sabbath. But the bible never says what commandments and statues God gave to Abraham either. We cannot base this upon what the bible did not mention and neglect what it did mention. The bible never says that God told cain he shouldn't kill his brother. The bible never says that God told Noah or anyone what animals were clean or unclean. The bible does tell us that God blessed the seventh day, hallowed it and sanctified it. To sanctify means to set apart for a holy purpose. Since creation the 7th day was set aside for a holy purpose. Didn't Adam know that God set apart the 7th day? Did God keep that as his little secret? The fact that set it apart and made it holy means that he did it for them and not for himself. God does not need a Sabbath but we do. It was made for us way back at creation. And we can say that no command was issued before the 10 commandments for Sabbath keeping, but that is not true. Many things that happened before the children of israel was left out. When God told Abraham his laws and statutes it was left out. The emphasis of the Old Testament was placed on the Children of Israel and how they came into being. Many of the earlier details are not given. We need to draw from what we know rather than base a belief on what we don't know. The sabbath was set apart and made holy at creation. If the Sabbath was made for man as Jesus said then it must have been also made for Adam and every man who lived after.

We cannot say it was not commanded. We know that a command was not mentioned. We do not know any of the laws, statutes and judgements given to Abraham. We cannot dwell on what we do not know. What was the purpose for God resting on the Sabbath? Its nothing other than to give us an example. That is why Paul could have said in Hebrews that he who enters into his rest has also ceased from his own works as God did from his. God did it as an example. God did not need to rest.

I would say that God said "Remember" because he knew we all would forget. Why did God have to give the 10 commandments? The Israelites were in bondage for over 400 years. How many of the surviving israelites were around before the slavery began. Most likely none. How could they have a relationship with God in slavery, not allowed to worship God and practice faith in God. They had to be retaught the ways of God. All they knew was what they got from the Egyptians. When Moses seemed to have died the first thing they did was make a golden calf. That was the Egytian thing to do.

It was a new start for the Israelites. God therefore made the Sabbath with extra significance for them. The commandment already says that the reason for the Sabbath is because God worked 6 days and rested on the 7th, blessed the seventh day and hallowed it. For the Children of Israel at that time, God added more significance to the Sabbath to remind them of what he did for them.

The penalties for breaking the 10 commandments were given by God to Moses. No one knew before that what the penalty would be. This point is irrelevant. When cain murdered abel the penalty was different to how it was in the time of the Israelites. Only God determined the penalty, so before God told them, they would not know.

There was no need for a command to keep the Sabbath. It was already being done. The problem was that their motives and the way in which they made the Sabbath a burden by their misunderstanding of what it means, needed to be changed. That is what Jesus worked on. Helping them and us to understand the Sabbath better. He did not need to command it. I had to cut some of your post to make room for mine. My apologies.

That was one argument (That the Sabbath wasn't made known until God gave Moses the covenant) given against people who keep the Sabbath based on that it was given at the Creation. We can go back and forth trying to say it was known before it was given to Moses or that it was implied and vice verse.

All we can do is agree to disagree. For me I don't think cutting the grass, going to work, watering the plants, and doing repairs on the house on the Sabbath are sinful.

 

[jarrettcpr]

It's not legalistic to keep the commands, or to obey what God says in the Bible.

I think for the commandment to keep the Sabbath is extremely legalistic. When you're told you have to do this or that on a particular day and if you don't then you're sinning, it's legalism. It's restrictive and therefore bondage, whatever it is I can't call it freedom.

"But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster." (Galatians 3:25)

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty with which Christ has made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage." (Galatians 5:1)

I agree with you up to the "Our rest is in Jesus". However, we have not entered/received that rest yet.

Jesus has fulfilled the Law, and obtained the reward. the rest is there, waiting for us, however we have not entered into it. That is why there are warnings (even in Hebrews 4) telling us to ensure that we enter this rest.

Hebrews 4:11

Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.

You said when you see the word rest, you see the way to salvation. If you see the way, are you saved, or on the way to being saved?
Note that the writer of Hebrews also included himself in this group who had to "make every effort". Even he, whoever he was, was not in the rest yet.

We've covered this already, and we don't see eye to eye on it. Here's an excerpt I agree with.

Hebrews 4 is talking about a future rest. People did not have this rest in Joshua’s day, nor when Psalm 95 was written (v. 8), so this chapter is not talking about the weekly Sabbath. This rest is entered by faith in Christ (v. 2). By using the word "Sabbath-rest," Hebrews is saying that the weekly Sabbath symbolized the real rest that God wants his people to enter. Just as the Levitical sacrifices symbolized the work of Christ, the weekly Sabbath pictured our final salvation. This symbolism says nothing about whether Christians should continue observing the symbols.
In one way, symbols are obsolete, but in another way, they are still required. Circumcision is a great example. Christians do not have to be physically circumcised (Rom. 2:29)—but we should be circumcised in the heart. We are to keep this ritual law, but we do so in the spirit, not the letter. In one sense, Christ has made the law obsolete; in another way, he has transformed it and still requires it in its transformed way. The same is true of the Levitical rituals: although we do not offer animal sacrifices, we are obedient to those laws when we have faith that Jesus Christ fulfilled those sacrifices. The requirement has been transformed.
In a similar way, since the Sabbath points toward our final salvation, and this salvation is in Christ, we are abiding by the purpose of the Sabbath command when we put our faith in Christ. It is in him that we find the rest that we need (Matt. 11:28-30). The requirement for rest has been transformed to focus on Christ rather than a day of the week. If we have faith in him, we are entering God’s rest and we are therefore keeping the spiritual intent of the Sabbath.

I'll have to read/meditate on this a little more.

Like I said, for that... context has to be brought it. But, if you find any good information about it, let me know.

IMO to say they were simply killed b/c they only lied to God (Though that's exaclty why they were killed) is (I know this is a big stretch, but you get what I'm saying, lol) the only reason Jesus died on the Cross is b/c of our sins (Though that's exactly why he died, but there is more than just that).

I'm worn out, like I told PROPHECYKID we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[NaLuvena]

It is a command. I am not saying its not. I am just saying that its also a principle to guide one to keep all the other laws. When the above law was given in Deuteronomy, it was the first law given before a series of laws in Deuteronomy 6 to show that upon that law will hang or rest all the other laws, not only in that immediate passage but even in the 10 commandments.

Ok. I apologise. I thought you were saying that the "principle" to love was not a commandment/law, based on what you had posted earlier, where you said "The command to love was not exactly a law but more of a principle".

So, how does this fit in with what you stated earlier, that the 10 commandments are greater than the rest of the Law, when the 2 greatest Laws are found outside the 10?

 

[NaLuvena]

I think for the commandment to keep the Sabbath is extremely legalistic. When you're told you have to do this or that on a particular day and if you don't then you're sinning, it's legalism. It's restrictive and therefore bondage, whatever it is I can't call it freedom.

So do you think that keeping all the commandments is legalistic, or only the keeping of the Sabbath commandment is legalistic?

If keeping one commandment is legalistic, yet keeping another is not, isn't that hypocritical?

"But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster." (Galatians 3:25)

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty with which Christ has made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage." (Galatians 5:1)

True...however, when we leave school, we take the things learnt from there with us for a reason. THEY ARE USEFUL IN THE LIFE WE ARE GOING TO LIVE. (caps for emphasis)

We've covered this already, and we don't see eye to eye on it. Here's an excerpt I agree with.

Hebrews 4 is talking about a future rest. People did not have this rest in Joshua’s day, nor when Psalm 95 was written (v. 8), so this chapter is not talking about the weekly Sabbath. This rest is entered by faith in Christ (v. 2). By using the word "Sabbath-rest," Hebrews is saying that the weekly Sabbath symbolized the real rest that God wants his people to enter. Just as the Levitical sacrifices symbolized the work of Christ, the weekly Sabbath pictured our final salvation. This symbolism says nothing about whether Christians should continue observing the symbols.
In one way, symbols are obsolete, but in another way, they are still required. Circumcision is a great example. Christians do not have to be physically circumcised (Rom. 2:29)—but we should be circumcised in the heart. We are to keep this ritual law, but we do so in the spirit, not the letter. In one sense, Christ has made the law obsolete; in another way, he has transformed it and still requires it in its transformed way. The same is true of the Levitical rituals: although we do not offer animal sacrifices, we are obedient to those laws when we have faith that Jesus Christ fulfilled those sacrifices. The requirement has been transformed.
In a similar way, since the Sabbath points toward our final salvation, and this salvation is in Christ, we are abiding by the purpose of the Sabbath command when we put our faith in Christ. It is in him that we find the rest that we need (Matt. 11:28-30). The requirement for rest has been transformed to focus on Christ rather than a day of the week. If we have faith in him, we are entering God’s rest and we are therefore keeping the spiritual intent of the Sabbath.

I fail to see why you hold the position you do, when the first line of your quote says "Hebrews 4 is talking about a future rest."

The rest is in the future. All we have now is the promise.

Like I said, for that... context has to be brought it. But, if you find any good information about it, let me know.

IMO to say they were simply killed b/c they only lied to God (Though that's exaclty why they were killed) is (I know this is a big stretch, but you get what I'm saying, lol) the only reason Jesus died on the Cross is b/c of our sins (Though that's exactly why he died, but there is more than just that).

I actually read this again and thought about it, and I have to disagree with you, they were killed because they lied to the Holy Spirit. The "stretch" is too big, it does not fit.

I'm worn out, like I told PROPHECYKID we'll just have to agree to disagree.

No worries.... as long as we agree with what God's truth is, I'm fine. God bless you my brother, and thanks for the great debate.

 

[jarrettcpr]

So do you think that keeping all the commandments is legalistic, or only the keeping of the Sabbath commandment is legalistic?

If keeping one commandment is legalistic, yet keeping another is not, isn't that hypocritical?

True...however, when we leave school, we take the things learnt from there with us for a reason. THEY ARE USEFUL IN THE LIFE WE ARE GOING TO LIVE. (caps for emphasis)

Actually no, the keeping of the Sabbath is the one that has rules as do what you have do and what you can't do. Unlike the other commandments, the Sabbath is the one that actually requires a type of action that confines what a person can and can't do.

The reason I used the quote with the schoolmaster is because we have priests/bishops/preachers/teachers and other Christians who support the Sabbath keeping as the day of rest, that tell other Christians we have to do this and that on a particular day (Sabbath) and then I used Galatians 5:1 to say no I'm free and do not have to be tied down to these rules that tell me I can't do this or that on any given day. IMO I call that bondage. Whatever it is I definitely can't call it freedom. When you can't cut your grass, make repairs on the house, go to work, and etc. then you don't have freedom. The thing is we're told we are no longer under bondage and are free b/c of Christ.

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty with which Christ has made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage." (Galatians 5:1)

I fail to see why you hold the position you do, when the first line of your quote says "Hebrews 4 is talking about a future rest."

The rest is in the future. All we have now is the promise.

B/c in Joshua's time and when Psalm 95 was written this rest has not been offered. In Hebrews it refers back to both of those things above.

The book of Hebrews is written to Jewish Christians. Hebrews are Jews. Remember the Jews (or what became known as the Jews) are the same ones that in Moses' day had difficulty entering the promised land. Though the promised land was symbolic of the greater rest God has for us. Both the Jews the author of Hebrews is writing to and the Jews in Moses' day were both having difficulty entering the rest b/c they both lacked faith. They were doubters and unsure what to believe.

In Hebrews 3:7-11. The title is called 'Warning Against Unbelief'. The Holy Spirit says in verse 11 "So I declared on oath in my anger, They shall never enter my rest', then in verse 12 makes clear that none should have an unbelieving heart. B/c if you do as the Holy Spirit testifies you will never enter the rest, b/c you have to have faith to enter it.

In Hebrews 4:6-7 The author writes "It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience. Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke to David, as was said before: Today if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts."

Today, God offers us the opportunity to enter his ultimate place of rest, to enter his rest you must believe God and trust that our relationship with Christ has made this rest possible.

In Hebrews 4:8-11 we see that God wants us to enter his rest. For the Israelites in Moses' time the rest was earthly rest to be found in the promised land. For us Christians, it is peace with God now and eternal life on a new earth later. For us we don't have to wait until the next life to enjoy God's rest and peace; we can have it now. Our daily rest in the Lord will not end with death, but will become an eternal rest in place that Christ is preparing for us.

In Hebrews 4:11 it says "Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.

We have to ask who's disobedience should we not follow? We know the answer to that. It's the Israelites in Moses' time. Now we have to ask what was their disobedience that we should not follow? We know their disobedience was unbelief (disobedience = unbelief), a lack of faith. The point of verse 11 and all of Hebrews 4 is lets learn from the mistakes of the Israelites and make sure we enter that rest by having faith = obedient.

I actually read this again and thought about it, and I have to disagree with you, they were killed because they lied to the Holy Spirit. The "stretch" is too big, it does not fit.

Yes, they were killed because they lied to God. Also, Jesus died becuase of our sins, and a car goes foward becuase someone pressed the gas pedal. Knowing all what we know with the context, it needs to be stressed that lying to the Holy Spirit during the very beginning of Christianity had dire consequences. Also, the fact they were killed showed how serious God was about the spreading of Christianity. These must be included when talking about why Ananias and Sapphira were killed. If I was in a church while the priest was preaching and he didn't address all of the things I mentioned above and possibly more then they're a preacher who only likes to skim the surface. There are other interpretations of what happend in Acts 5. Some say it's a strong statement about telling the truth, others say the act of donating the money was not a free choice, and therefore they lied to be able to keep some of the money, others have interpreted that it was a free choice, but Ananias was attempting to look pious in front of others while hiding some of his wealth. The greed then culminated into lying to the Holy Spirit which he was killed for.

No worries.... as long as we agree with what God's truth is, I'm fine. God bless you my brother, and thanks for the great debate.

Thank you.

 

[NaLuvena]

Actually no, the keeping of the Sabbath is the one that has rules as do what you have do and what you can't do. Unlike the other commandments, the Sabbath is the one that actually requires a type of action that confines what a person can and can't do.

The reason I used the quote with the schoolmaster is because we have priests/bishops/preachers/teachers and other Christians who support the Sabbath keeping as the day of rest, that tell other Christians we have to do this and that on a particular day (Sabbath) and then I used Galatians 5:1 to say no I'm free and do not have to be tied down to these rules that tell me I can't do this or that on any given day. IMO I call that bondage. Whatever it is I definitely can't call it freedom. When you can't cut your grass, make repairs on the house, go to work, and etc. then you don't have freedom. The thing is we're told we are no longer under bondage and are free b/c of Christ.

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty with which Christ has made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage." (Galatians 5:1)

So, can you point out what the "yoke of bondage" that Christ set us free from?

Is it the Law, or is it sin, and death?

B/c in Joshua's time and when Psalm 95 was written this rest has not been offered. In Hebrews it refers back to both of those things above.

The book of Hebrews is written to Jewish Christians. Hebrews are Jews. Remember the Jews (or what became known as the Jews) are the same ones that in Moses' day had difficulty entering the promised land. Though the promised land was symbolic of the greater rest God has for us. Both the Jews the author of Hebrews is writing to and the Jews in Moses' day were both having difficulty entering the rest b/c they both lacked faith. They were doubters and unsure what to believe.

In Hebrews 3:7-11. The title is called 'Warning Against Unbelief'. The Holy Spirit says in verse 11 "So I declared on oath in my anger, They shall never enter my rest', then in verse 12 makes clear that none should have an unbelieving heart. B/c if you do as the Holy Spirit testifies you will never enter the rest, b/c you have to have faith to enter it.

In Hebrews 4:6-7 The author writes "It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience. Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke to David, as was said before: Today if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts."

Today, God offers us the opportunity to enter his ultimate place of rest, to enter his rest you must believe God and trust that our relationship with Christ has made this rest possible.

In Hebrews 4:8-11 we see that God wants us to enter his rest. For the Israelites in Moses' time the rest was earthly rest to be found in the promised land. For us Christians, it is peace with God now and eternal life on a new earth later. For us we don't have to wait until the next life to enjoy God's rest and peace; we can have it now. Our daily rest in the Lord will not end with death, but will become an eternal rest in place that Christ is preparing for us.

In Hebrews 4:11 it says "Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.

We have to ask who's disobedience should we not follow? We know the answer to that. It's the Israelites in Moses' time. Now we have to ask what was their disobedience that we should not follow? We know their disobedience was unbelief (disobedience = unbelief), a lack of faith. The point of verse 11 and all of Hebrews 4 is lets learn from the mistakes of the Israelites and make sure we enter that rest by having faith = obedient.

Yet in Hebrews 4:11, the author of Hebrews himself, is saying that all of us, INCLUDING HIM, should do everything to enter the rest. Why would he say that if the rest had already been given? He is saying that, warning all who read what he has written, to ensure they strive to enter the rest, as it is a promise to us, and has not been given, like resurrection. We have the guarantee of resurrection, but will be resurrected when Christ returns.

Yes, they were killed because they lied to God. Also, Jesus died becuase of our sins, and a car goes foward becuase someone pressed the gas pedal. Knowing all what we know with the context, it needs to be stressed that lying to the Holy Spirit during the very beginning of Christianity had dire consequences. Also, the fact they were killed showed how serious God was about the spreading of Christianity. These must be included when talking about why Ananias and Sapphira were killed. If I was in a church while the priest was preaching and he didn't address all of the things I mentioned above and possibly more then they're a preacher who only likes to skim the surface. There are other interpretations of what happend in Acts 5. Some say it's a strong statement about telling the truth, others say the act of donating the money was not a free choice, and therefore they lied to be able to keep some of the money, others have interpreted that it was a free choice, but Ananias was attempting to look pious in front of others while hiding some of his wealth. The greed then culminated into lying to the Holy Spirit which he was killed for.

Not true.

They died because they thought nothing of trampling on the sacrifice of Christ. Remember, these weren't unsaved believers, these were part of the Pentecost eyewitnesses. They wilfully sinned, (lied) and as Hebrews says, all that was left for them was a fearful expectation of judgement and God's raging fire. Peter, speaking by the Spirit, executed the judgement, and they died.

Thank you.

You're welcome

 

[jarrettcpr]

So, can you point out what the "yoke of bondage" that Christ set us free from?

Is it the Law, or is it sin, and death?

He set us free free from all of the above, but I was mainly talking about the Law:

"So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God."Romans 7:4.

"But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code."Romans 7:6.

"Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law." Galatians 3:23-25

"If ye be led by the Spirit, ye are not under the law" Galatians 5:18.

"For Christ is the end of the Law, so that everyone exercising faith may have righteousness." Romans 10:4

"Whereforethe law was our schoolmasterto bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster “ [the law]. Galatians 3:24-25.

"And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts! Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom." 2 Corinthians 3:11-17

"By means of his flesh [Christ] abolished the enmity, the Law of commandments consisting in decrees, that he might create the two peoples in union with himself into one new man and make peace; and that he might fully reconcile both peoples in one body to God through the torture stake, because he had killed off the enmity by means of himself." (Ephesians 2:15-16)

"When God speaks of a new [covenant or agreement], He makes the first one obsolete (out of use). And what is obsolete (out of use and annulled because of age) is ripe for disappearance and to be dispensed with altogether." Hebrews 8:13,

You get the picture

Yet in Hebrews 4:11, the author of Hebrews himself, is saying that all of us, INCLUDING HIM, should do everything to enter the rest. Why would he say that if the rest had already been given? He is saying that, warning all who read what he has written, to ensure they strive to enter the rest, as it is a promise to us, and has not been given, like resurrection. We have the guarantee of resurrection, but will be resurrected when Christ returns.

Yet, if Paul knew they were believers, why does he in Hebrews 3:12 say "See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turn away from the living God." Paul is trying to make a point, that if you don't have faith or forsake it you will end up like the Israelites during Moses' time, who failed to enter the promised land.

Paul knew these Jews/Hebrews that he's addressing are just like the Israelites during Moses' time who had trouble with faith. Paul knew this and warned them to, not let your disobedience aka unbelief make you end up just like the Jews before you in Moses' time, who failed to enter God's rest.

Not true.

They died because they thought nothing of trampling on the sacrifice of Christ. Remember, these weren't unsaved believers, these were part of the Pentecost eyewitnesses. They wilfully sinned, (lied) and as Hebrews says, all that was left for them was a fearful expectation of judgement and God's raging fire. Peter, speaking by the Spirit, executed the judgement, and they died.

What isn't true?

I've said before that they died b/c they lied to the Holy Spirit (GOD). The others I provided are different interpretations on it. There is another interpretation that the Ananias and Sapphira story might be related to Achan in Joshua 7. Here is a link of the interpretations that I've already provided ... Ananias and Sapphira - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I've said they died b/c they lied, just my whole point is don't leave out the context.

Here is all of my excerpts... though the first one wasn't clear enough and I didn't mention the fact they lied to the Holy Spirit, but that was implied (You had the fact bolded) b/c it's in the Scripture.

1 "The reason they(Ananias and his wife) died is b/c Acts tells us the beginning of the Christianity movement, and there was absolutely no part for someone who was going to slow it down."

2 "I saw the bolded part, that they lied to the Holy Spirit, but the notes in my Bible also says, "The Sin Ananias and Sapphira committed was not stinginess or holding back part of the money, nor was it their choice on whether to sell the land and how much to give. Their sin was was lying to God and God's people.... This act was judged harshly b/c dishonesty, greed, and covetousness was destructive in a church, preventing the Holy Spirit from working effectively. All lying is bad, but when we lie to try to deceive God and his people about our relationship with him, we destroy our testimony about Christ."

So, simply to say they lied to God is why they were killed is an over simplified version."

3 "In essence yes they were killed simply b/c they lied to God, but in effect that's the same as saying a car goes forward b/c someone presses the gas pedal. There is more going on then just lying. Leaving out the rest of the context over simplifies it. To ignore the fact that this was the very beginning of the Christian movement, and to ignore the location, and everything else that was going on is an error on our behalf."

4 I think for that given circumstance that it's not far fetched to think that. People lie to God and the church all the time, but we don't see people dying the very instant they do it. I don't really know (if God's judgments are time sensitive), though it's best not to lie to God and others.

5 "Like I said, for that... context has to be brought it. But, if you find any good information about it, let me know.

IMO to say they were simply killed b/c they only lied to God (Though that's exaclty why they were killed) is (I know this is a big stretch, but you get what I'm saying, lol) the only reason Jesus died on the Cross is b/c of our sins (Though that's exactly why he died, but there is more than just that)."

6 "Yes, they were killed because they lied to God. Also, Jesus died because of our sins, and a car goes froward because someone pressed the gas pedal. Knowing all what we know with the context, it needs to be stressed that lying to the Holy Spirit during the very beginning of Christianity had dire consequences. Also, the fact they were killed showed how serious God was about the spreading of Christianity. These must be included when talking about why Ananias and Sapphira were killed. If I was in a church while the priest was preaching and he didn't address all of the things I mentioned above and possibly more then they're a preacher who only likes to skim the surface. There are other interpretations of what happened in Acts 5. Some say it's a strong statement about telling the truth, others say the act of donating the money was not a free choice, and therefore they lied to be able to keep some of the money, others have interpreted that it was a free choice, but Ananias was attempting to look pious in front of others while hiding some of his wealth. The greed then culminated into lying to the Holy Spirit which he was killed for."

As far as Ananias and Sapphira I knew they were killed b/c they lied to the Holy Spirit (It's written in the Scripture), but my point was don't forget the context.

 

[NaLuvena]

He set us free free from all of the above, but I was mainly talking about the Law:

"So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God."Romans 7:4.

"But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code."Romans 7:6.


"Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law." Galatians 3:23-25

"If ye be led by the Spirit, ye are not under the law" Galatians 5:18.

"For Christ is the end of the Law, so that everyone exercising faith may have righteousness." Romans 10:4

"Whereforethe law was our schoolmasterto bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster “ [the law]. Galatians 3:24-25.

"And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts! Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom." 2 Corinthians 3:11-17


"By means of his flesh [Christ] abolished the enmity, the Law of commandments consisting in decrees, that he might create the two peoples in union with himself into one new man and make peace; and that he might fully reconcile both peoples in one body to God through the torture stake, because he had killed off the enmity by means of himself." (Ephesians 2:15-16)

"When God speaks of a new [covenant or agreement], He makes the first one obsolete (out of use). And what is obsolete (out of use and annulled because of age) is ripe for disappearance and to be dispensed with altogether." Hebrews 8:13,

You get the picture

So, now that you are free of the Law, are you free to murder?

Jesus abolished the old way of the Law (Letter) and instituted the new way (Spirit). The Laws have not changed, only that before they were written on tablets of stone, but now are written on our hearts and minds.

Yet, if Paul knew they were believers, why does he in Hebrews 3:12 say "See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turn away from the living God." Paul is trying to make a point, that if you don't have faith or forsake it you will end up like the Israelites during Moses' time, who failed to enter the promised land.

Paul knew these Jews/Hebrews that he's addressing are just like the Israelites during Moses' time who had trouble with faith. Paul knew this and warned them to, not let your disobedience aka unbelief make you end up just like the Jews before you in Moses' time, who failed to enter God's rest.

Exactly!!!!

And when, may I ask, did they enter the Promised Land? During the journey, or at the end? At the end.

So it is with us. We have not entered the rest, we are still in the journey.

My point is, none of us have entered the rest, so to say that the shadow of the rest has been done away with, because we have the rest, is incorrect.

What isn't true?

I've said before that they died b/c they lied to the Holy Spirit (GOD). The others I provided are different interpretations on it. There is another interpretation that the Ananias and Sapphira story might be related to Achan in Joshua 7. Here is a link of the interpretations that I've already provided ... Ananias and Sapphira - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I've said they died b/c they lied, just my whole point is don't leave out the context.

Here is all of my excerpts... though the first one wasn't clear enough and I didn't mention the fact they lied to the Holy Spirit, but that was implied (You had the fact bolded) b/c it's in the Scripture.

1 "The reason they(Ananias and his wife) died is b/c Acts tells us the beginning of the Christianity movement, and there was absolutely no part for someone who was going to slow it down."

2 "I saw the bolded part, that they lied to the Holy Spirit, but the notes in my Bible also says, "The Sin Ananias and Sapphira committed was not stinginess or holding back part of the money, nor was it their choice on whether to sell the land and how much to give. Their sin was was lying to God and God's people.... This act was judged harshly b/c dishonesty, greed, and covetousness was destructive in a church, preventing the Holy Spirit from working effectively. All lying is bad, but when we lie to try to deceive God and his people about our relationship with him, we destroy our testimony about Christ."

So, simply to say they lied to God is why they were killed is an over simplified version."

3 "In essence yes they were killed simply b/c they lied to God, but in effect that's the same as saying a car goes forward b/c someone presses the gas pedal. There is more going on then just lying. Leaving out the rest of the context over simplifies it. To ignore the fact that this was the very beginning of the Christian movement, and to ignore the location, and everything else that was going on is an error on our behalf."

4 I think for that given circumstance that it's not far fetched to think that. People lie to God and the church all the time, but we don't see people dying the very instant they do it. I don't really know (if God's judgments are time sensitive), though it's best not to lie to God and others.

5 "Like I said, for that... context has to be brought it. But, if you find any good information about it, let me know.

IMO to say they were simply killed b/c they only lied to God (Though that's exaclty why they were killed) is (I know this is a big stretch, but you get what I'm saying, lol) the only reason Jesus died on the Cross is b/c of our sins (Though that's exactly why he died, but there is more than just that)."

6 "Yes, they were killed because they lied to God. Also, Jesus died because of our sins, and a car goes froward because someone pressed the gas pedal. Knowing all what we know with the context, it needs to be stressed that lying to the Holy Spirit during the very beginning of Christianity had dire consequences. Also, the fact they were killed showed how serious God was about the spreading of Christianity. These must be included when talking about why Ananias and Sapphira were killed. If I was in a church while the priest was preaching and he didn't address all of the things I mentioned above and possibly more then they're a preacher who only likes to skim the surface. There are other interpretations of what happened in Acts 5. Some say it's a strong statement about telling the truth, others say the act of donating the money was not a free choice, and therefore they lied to be able to keep some of the money, others have interpreted that it was a free choice, but Ananias was attempting to look pious in front of others while hiding some of his wealth. The greed then culminated into lying to the Holy Spirit which he was killed for."

As far as Ananias and Sapphira I knew they were killed b/c they lied to the Holy Spirit (It's written in the Scripture), but my point was don't forget the context.

Not true, in the sense that to say that sins at the beginning of the Church had more "seriousness" than now is not true.

They all carry the same weight. To say that swift punishment is a sign that the sin is more severe is not true.

 

[jarrettcpr]

So, now that you are free of the Law, are you free to murder?

Jesus abolished the old way of the Law (Letter) and instituted the new way (Spirit). The Laws have not changed, only that before they were written on tablets of stone, but now are written on our hearts and minds.

Actually if I wanted to, I sure could. Though I would pay the consequences on this planet. Maybe jail, possibly death, and even my conscience would eat me up. But I'd still be saved if I have faith.

I wouldn't want kill someone b/c that would be going against the fulfillment of the law.

"For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." Galatians 5:14

I don't know how killing my neighbor would be showing my love for them.

The only thing that has changed is the symbolic nature and the transformation of the Law. Besides making different types of sin offerings and sacrifices that were made in the OT, we do it through the blood of Christ. Instead of being circumcised outwardly, we're supposed to be circumcised inwardly. Just like keeping the Sabbath day holy, we now keep the Sabbath Holy by faith in Jesus.

Exactly!!!!

And when, may I ask, did they enter the Promised Land? During the journey, or at the end? At the end.

So it is with us. We have not entered the rest, we are still in the journey.

My point is, none of us have entered the rest, so to say that the shadow of the rest has been done away with, because we have the rest, is incorrect.

They entered when they became obedient aka had faith. Though the Jews under Joshua were in a temporary, earthly rest that only pointed to the rest that is spiritual and eternal, that was pointing to Jesus. Once we believe in him is when we have salvation and therefore rest from our own works to gain salvation.

In Hebrews 4:1 'the promise of entering his rest still stand' Means salvation is still available.

Hebrews 4:3 'we who have believed enter that rest' Means just as entering physical rest in Canaan demanded faith in God's promise, so salvation-rest is entered only by faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 4:9 'there remains, then a Sabbath-rest' means God's rest may still be entered by faith in Christ.

Hebrews 4:10 'rest from his own work' Whereas God rested from the work of creation, the believer ceases his efforts to gain salvation by his own works and rests in the finished work of Christ.

Hebrews 4:11 'make every effort to enter that rest' Not a call to earn one's salvation by works, but an exhortation to enter salvation-rest by faith and not follow Israel's sad example in the desert.

Not true, in the sense that to say that sins at the beginning of the Church had more "seriousness" than now is not true.

They all carry the same weight. To say that swift punishment is a sign that the sin is more severe is not true.

Yes, all sin deserves death. All sins are equal. Also, there are usually examples in the Bible when someone is the first to break the Law of a particular nature (I beleive the first lie to the Holy Spirit and to the Church is a particular situation), then they're killed as an example. For instance the guy who broke the Sabbath. He was an example, as to why not to break the Sabbath and what would happen if someone did.

I never said anything about swift punishment is a sign that a sin is more severe. My thing is about context and how it could be used as an example to individuals that belong to the Church and to God.

Also, since we're talking about keeping the Sabbath: Do you keep the Sabbath correctly?

1. No work done at all (Ex. 20: 10; Lev. 23: 3; Jer. 17:21-22). No watering the lawn, no working in the yard, no fixing flat tires, etc. By law if a person did not stop all types of activity in honor of the Sabbath, he was breaking the law. In Numbers 15:32-36 a man was caught collecting sticks on the Sabbath, and he received a rock concert from the people he knew.

2 No kindling of a fire (Ex. 35:3). No fellowship cookouts or barbecues. You can't go into a restaurant and get a hamburger that's been flame broiled, you can't cook eggs, or pancakes in the morning because you'd be kindling a fire for cooking.

3. No traveling (Ex. 16:29). Later the Jews added to this law, allowing only a half mile of travel on the Sabbath which we see observed in the NT. But the pure law says "stay at home."

4. No trading (Amos 8:5). You would not be allowed to buy a cassette tape of that morning's message or a book at the store. There is to be No exchanging of money for goods. If you worked with stocks and you needed to sell you couldn’t.

5. No marketing (Neh. 10:31; 13:15,19). Make sure you do no shopping whatsoever.

6."... a holy assembly with double the daily offering along with the other offerings. In other words, you are to give twice as much on the Sabbath (Num. 28:9). Do we practiced this today In compliance with Old Testament law?

7. New showbread In the holy place (Lev. 24:8). Of course this cannot be done today since there is no temple, so this part of the Sabbath cannot be followed by the church. The fact Is the Sabbath was not made for the gentiles, but for the Jews and their generations Ex. 31:12-17). It's a law given between God and the Jews.

8.The last part of the requirements for keeping the Sabbath day law Is the penalty for breaking It. Death! Num. 15:32-35


I keep the Sabbath, by having faith if Christ. Not by the above or any other regulation that one must follow to not be sinning.