what is the sabbath?

[NaLuvena]

Actually if I wanted to, I sure could. Though I would pay the consequences on this planet. Maybe jail, possibly death, and even my conscience would eat me up. But I'd still be saved if I have faith.

I wouldn't want kill someone b/c that would be going against the fulfillment of the law.

"For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." Galatians 5:14

I don't know how killing my neighbor would be showing my love for them.

Therefore you keep the Law (at least the one related to murder). If you keep this Law, why do you exempt yourself from the others. You keep, both the physical restriction (not actually murdering someone) and the spiritual requirement (no anger without cause).

If you keep the physical requirement but break the spiritual requirement, you break the Law.
If you keep the spiritual requirement but break the physical requirement, you break the Law.
Both requirements must be kept.

Same with the Sabbath.

"For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." Galatians 5:14

Did you know that in the same giving of this Law (Leviticus 19:18), God also commands the keeping of the Sabbath (Leviticus 19:3)? God started talking to Moses, telling him to tell the Israelites to keep the Sabbath at the beginning and gave this Law midway through that conversation?

How can you separate part of that speech from the rest of it, and say it does not apply anymore, when the whole was meant by God to be one?

The only thing that has changed is the symbolic nature and the transformation of the Law. Besides making different types of sin offerings and sacrifices that were made in the OT, we do it through the blood of Christ. Instead of being circumcised outwardly, we're supposed to be circumcised inwardly. Just like keeping the Sabbath day holy, we now keep the Sabbath Holy by faith in Jesus.

Sorry, I still don't agree. As the real Sabbath has not been given, we still have to keep the shadow. We only have a promise of the rest.

They entered when they became obedient aka had faith. Though the Jews under Joshua were in a temporary, earthly rest that only pointed to the rest that is spiritual and eternal, that was pointing to Jesus. Once we believe in him is when we have salvation and therefore rest from our own works to gain salvation.

Joshua and Caleb were the only two to enter the promised land, of those who left Egypt. This was promised to them because they had faith. However, they only entered at the end of the journey, not while they were still in the journey.

Likewise, we will only enter the rest at the end of our journey, not while we travel. So to say that Sabbath keeping has been done away with, because we already have the rest is incorrect, as we only have the promise.

In Hebrews 4:1 'the promise of entering his rest still stand' Means salvation is still available.

It means exactly what it says...that His rest is still a promise. I think you are reading into the verse what it does not say?

Hebrews 4:3 'we who have believed enter that rest' Means just as entering physical rest in Canaan demanded faith in God's promise, so salvation-rest is entered only by faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 4:9 'there remains, then a Sabbath-rest' means God's rest may still be entered by faith in Christ.

Hebrews 4:10 'rest from his own work' Whereas God rested from the work of creation, the believer ceases his efforts to gain salvation by his own works and rests in the finished work of Christ.

This is only true if one has entered God's rest. It's only when we enter God's rest, that we cease from our work.

Hebrews 4:11 'make every effort to enter that rest' Not a call to earn one's salvation by works, but an exhortation to enter salvation-rest by faith and not follow Israel's sad example in the desert.

Yet it proves that we have not yet entered the rest, so if you use the argument that we have already received the rest, abolishing the sign (Sabbath) that would not be true.

Yes, all sin deserves death. All sins are equal. Also, there are usually examples in the Bible when someone is the first to break the Law of a particular nature (I beleive the first lie to the Holy Spirit and to the Church is a particular situation), then they're killed as an example. For instance the guy who broke the Sabbath. He was an example, as to why not to break the Sabbath and what would happen if someone did.

I never said anything about swift punishment is a sign that a sin is more severe. My thing is about context and how it could be used as an example to individuals that belong to the Church and to God.

Point taken.

Also, since we're talking about keeping the Sabbath: Do you keep the Sabbath correctly?

1. No work done at all (Ex. 20: 10; Lev. 23: 3; Jer. 17:21-22). No watering the lawn, no working in the yard, no fixing flat tires, etc. By law if a person did not stop all types of activity in honor of the Sabbath, he was breaking the law. In Numbers 15:32-36 a man was caught collecting sticks on the Sabbath, and he received a rock concert from the people he knew.

I do this.

2 No kindling of a fire (Ex. 35:3). No fellowship cookouts or barbecues. You can't go into a restaurant and get a hamburger that's been flame broiled, you can't cook eggs, or pancakes in the morning because you'd be kindling a fire for cooking.

I do this, and no, I don't buy any food, because commerce is forbidden on the Sabbath.

3. No traveling (Ex. 16:29). Later the Jews added to this law, allowing only a half mile of travel on the Sabbath which we see observed in the NT. But the pure law says "stay at home."

This does not apply anymore. Jesus travelled on the Sabbath. He also visited with friends and family.

4. No trading (Amos 8:5). You would not be allowed to buy a cassette tape of that morning's message or a book at the store. There is to be No exchanging of money for goods. If you worked with stocks and you needed to sell you couldn’t.

I own a business, that I close Friday afternoon, and do not open on Saturday.

5. No marketing (Neh. 10:31; 13:15,19). Make sure you do no shopping whatsoever.

IMO same as point#4.

6."... a holy assembly with double the daily offering along with the other offerings. In other words, you are to give twice as much on the Sabbath (Num. 28:9). Do we practiced this today In compliance with Old Testament law?

The burnt offerings that were offered daily in the Temple, signify the prayers that rise to God as a pleasing aroma. We do that, when we pray and have fellowship with Him, and on Sabbath, we are to pray more (double), and yes, I do this as well.

7. New showbread In the holy place (Lev. 24:8). Of course this cannot be done today since there is no temple, so this part of the Sabbath cannot be followed by the church. The fact Is the Sabbath was not made for the gentiles, but for the Jews and their generations Ex. 31:12-17). It's a law given between God and the Jews.

The showbread, signifies the continual presence of the physical Israel before the Lord. As God now dwells in our hearts, I'd say that one is taken care off as well.

8.The last part of the requirements for keeping the Sabbath day law Is the penalty for breaking It. Death! Num. 15:32-35

Death is the penalty for all sin, and Jesus took care of that.

Now that you have gone all legalistic on me, I have a question. How can you justify keeping only part of the Law and through out this one? If you keep one, even the Royal Law, you must keep them all. If you keep some and break the others, then you are guilty of breaking the law.

The only option I see, then, is not to keep any of them at all. Do you do this?

James 2

8If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right. 9But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

I keep the Sabbath, by having faith if Christ. Not by the above or any other regulation that one must follow to not be sinning.

And how exactly do you do this? Just believing Jesus is not sabbath-keeping. You need to demonstrate your belief by what you do.

James 2:26

As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

I believe the same as you, and because I believe Jesus has promised me the rest, I keep the shadow, so that when the reality is revealed, I can enter it.

Our keeping the commandments of God is the demonstration of our love for Jesus.

John 14

15"If you love me, you will obey what I command.

21Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."

 

[jarrettcpr]

Therefore you keep the Law (at least the one related to murder). If you keep this Law, why do you exempt yourself from the others. You keep, both the physical restriction (not actually murdering someone) and the spiritual requirement (no anger without cause).

If you keep the physical requirement but break the spiritual requirement, you break the Law.
If you keep the spiritual requirement but break the physical requirement, you break the Law.
Both requirements must be kept.

Same with the Sabbath.


Did you know that in the same giving of this Law (Leviticus 19:18), God also commands the keeping of the Sabbath (Leviticus 19:3)? God started talking to Moses, telling him to tell the Israelites to keep the Sabbath at the beginning and gave this Law midway through that conversation?

How can you separate part of that speech from the rest of it, and say it does not apply anymore, when the whole was meant by God to be one?

The only law I try and keep is... "For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." (Galatians 5:14)

I don't see how doing anything or not doing anything on a particular day fits into that Scripture, so I exempt the Sabbath day of rest as a Law to follow.

There are many things we don't have to keep in the Law i.e. circumcision. Though we're said to be circumcised spiritually. So, from your above even though we're spiritually circumcised, but if we are not physically circumcised, then we're breaking the Law? Anything other than a yes on your part, will take away your above premise.

How about this part of the Law: I hope we don't have to follow it:

"If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives." (Deuteronomy 22:28-29)

I don't want to post other examples that we are in no shape suppose to follow, yet they were Laws that were supposed to be followed by the Jews before Christ died and set us free.

Sorry, I still don't agree. As the real Sabbath has not been given, we still have to keep the shadow. We only have a promise of the rest.

Okay, we'll just have to disagree. The rest is speaking to gaining salvation, which only comes through faith.

Joshua and Caleb were the only two to enter the promised land, of those who left Egypt. This was promised to them because they had faith. However, they only entered at the end of the journey, not while they were still in the journey.

Likewise, we will only enter the rest at the end of our journey, not while we travel. So to say that Sabbath keeping has been done away with, because we already have the rest is incorrect, as we only have the promise.

That's because the promise of the rest still stands. Meaning salvation is still available... even today. In all of the Bible notes I have and looking on the web, that's the consensus for that verse.

It means exactly what it says...that His rest is still a promise. I think you are reading into the verse what it does not say?

My previous statement addresses this.

This is only true if one has entered God's rest. It's only when we enter God's rest, that we cease from our work.

This can only be true when we have faith in what Jesus accomplished for us. Once we do that we have rest, b/c salvation (rest) is only available to those that have faith in the work Jesus did for us. Once we have faith in Jesus is when we can stop our own work to earn our salvation.

Yet it proves that we have not yet entered the rest, so if you use the argument that we have already received the rest, abolishing the sign (Sabbath) that would not be true.

No, that proves the author of Hebrews knew his audience was just like the Israelites before them who wavered in their faith. This is a call to not follow their sad example. One needs to study who the recipients of Hebrews were. They were Jewish converts who were familiar with the OT and who were being tempted to revert to Judaism or to Judaize gospel (cf. Gal 2:14).

Now that you have gone all legalistic on me, I have a question. How can you justify keeping only part of the Law and through out this one? If you keep one, even the Royal Law, you must keep them all. If you keep some and break the others, then you are guilty of breaking the law.

The only option I see, then, is not to keep any of them at all. Do you do this?

James 2

8If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right. 9But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

For your question, as I said earlier I still keep the Sabbath (Just not as the day), the symbolic nature has changed and transformed... just like circumcision.

And how exactly do you do this? Just believing Jesus is not sabbath-keeping. You need to demonstrate your belief by what you do.

James 2:26

As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

I believe the same as you, and because I believe Jesus has promised me the rest, I keep the shadow, so that when the reality is revealed, I can enter it.

Our keeping the commandments of God is the demonstration of our love for Jesus.

Yes, I do what I think are good deeds. Are you trying to use that Scripture to justify one is suppose to keep all the Laws/Commandments? Deeds doesn't implicitly imply following the Laws/Commandments.

John 14

15"If you love me, you will obey what I command.

21Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."

God/Jesus already loves us. But as the above verse and the verse from James in respect with deeds, we see if you truly have faith and believe that Jesus died for us, then there would be at least some sort of turning over a leaf. Especially, when it comes to showing our love to others as Christ did for us. Which is the fulfillment of the law (By doing this we show that we love God/Jesus).

As far as the Sabbath topic ...

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty with which Christ has made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage." (Galatians 5:1)

For me keeping the Sabbath the way you do or keeping in which I can't do this or that, which I could normally due, is not freedom.

I just don't see any Scripture in the NT that says we are to keep the Sabbath as a day of rest, and yet there is Scripture that says it's not a problem if someone thinks all days are the same, and we are also told not to judge what one eats or what one does with religious ceremonies. Plus if keeping the Sabbath day was such an important issue it would be inconceivable to not think it would be specifically addressed in at least one of the epistles. Yet, we're told not to be concerned with what one does on any given day, especially so called 'important days'.

 

[NaLuvena]

The only law I try and keep is... "For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." (Galatians 5:14)

Then the Law and the Prophets are hanging by one hand.

Not even the "Love the Lord your God..." one?

IMO (and I mean no offense by this) you are keeping half of what must be kept.

If we love our God, we will do what He wants. Ergo, keeping the Law. Not because it saves us, but because we want to please Him.

I don't see how doing anything or not doing anything on a particular day fits into that Scripture, so I exempt the Sabbath day of rest as a Law to follow.

My point was, the Law you keep, was uttered by God (no less!!) in the same utterance He also made that commands us to keep the Sabbath.

You just threw out part of what God told Moses, in the same part you refer to as what must be kept. I cannot see how that can be justified.

There are many things we don't have to keep in the Law i.e. circumcision. Though we're said to be circumcised spiritually. So, from your above even though we're spiritually circumcised, but if we are not physically circumcised, then we're breaking the Law? Anything other than a yes on your part, will take away your above premise.

Says who?

If you are referring to Galatians, Paul was telling them that ONLY FAITH saves us. Paul never taught that circumcision was not abolished, only that it was unnecessary for one to be saved.

There were "Judaisers" who were preaching that to be saved, one had to believe, and also be circumcised. There was a big meeting in Jerusalem regarding this (Acts 15) with the rest of the Church leaders and they affirmed that faith was the only way to salvation.

How about this part of the Law: I hope we don't have to follow it:

"If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives." (Deuteronomy 22:28-29)

I don't want to post other examples that we are in no shape suppose to follow, yet they were Laws that were supposed to be followed by the Jews before Christ died and set us free.

I'll address this generally so that it covers the other laws you are alluding to.

There are ways to keep all of God's laws. That is one of the reasons Jesus sent the Spirit, to teach us how to. We need to walk in the Spirit, and only then, will we learn how to keep the Law, as God intended it to be kept.

Matthew 13:52

He said to them, "Therefore every teacher of the law who has been instructed about the kingdom of heaven is like the owner of a house who brings out of his storeroom new treasures as well as old."

The new treasures relate to the Kingdom of Heaven, the old treasures to the Law.

Okay, we'll just have to disagree. The rest is speaking to gaining salvation, which only comes through faith.

Let's disagree.

FTR, my view is the rest is the destination, and salvation is the beginning of the journey. What I am referring to is what we must do during the journey.

That's because the promise of the rest still stands. Meaning salvation is still available... even today. In all of the Bible notes I have and looking on the web, that's the consensus for that verse.

Again salvation and the rest are two different things. For example: Anaias and Sapphira were 2 believers who were saved, but who will not be entering God's rest.

This can only be true when we have faith in what Jesus accomplished for us. Once we do that we have rest, b/c salvation (rest) is only available to those that have faith in the work Jesus did for us. Once we have faith in Jesus is when we can stop our own work to earn our salvation.

Again, you equate salvation to rest. Tell me something, my brother....

If what you are saying (that the rest is referring to salvation) is true, and that once we are saved, we rest, and Jesus is working through us, how come all people who are saved do not immediately become like Christ, in knowledge, power and annointing of the Spirit?

It's because their work isn't done.

I agree that once we have faith, the work for our salvation is done. However, we still have work to do.

We need to grow spiritually, and read/learn/meditate on the Scriptures.
We need to fulfill the Great Commission.
We need to pray.

We need to do this.

2 Peter 1

5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love.

Note the effort is ours. We are to work for this.

Therefore, as we have not ceased from our work, it cannot be said that we have entered the rest. Those who enter the rest rest from ALL their work.

No, that proves the author of Hebrews knew his audience was just like the Israelites before them who wavered in their faith. This is a call to not follow their sad example. One needs to study who the recipients of Hebrews were. They were Jewish converts who were familiar with the OT and who were being tempted to revert to Judaism or to Judaize gospel (cf. Gal 2:14).

Exactly

so, if what you were saying is true, why would the author of Hebrews need to warn them not to follow the example of the Israelites who left Egypt? After all, according to your definition of "rest", the "Hebrews" audience had already entered into it.

I highlighted where you said this...

Yes, I do what I think are good deeds. Are you trying to use that Scripture to justify one is suppose to keep all the Laws/Commandments? Deeds doesn't implicitly imply following the Laws/Commandments.

Yes. We are to keep God's Laws. Well, that is if you love God, and Jesus.

God/Jesus already loves us. But as the above verse and the verse from James in respect with deeds, we see if you truly have faith and believe that Jesus died for us, then there would be at least some sort of turning over a leaf. Especially, when it comes to showing our love to others as Christ did for us. Which is the fulfillment of the law (By doing this we show that we love God/Jesus).

God loves us

The question is, do we (you/me) love Him. If we do, we will keep His commandments. ALL of them.

As far as the Sabbath topic ...

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty with which Christ has made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage." (Galatians 5:1)

so what yoke did Jesus free us from? From sin. We are free from sin, not from the Law.

For me keeping the Sabbath the way you do or keeping in which I can't do this or that, which I could normally due, is not freedom.

For me, keeping the Sabbath, as with keeping all of God's commandments, means following what He said.

We are freed from sin to follow God. We are not free to do as we please, in God's Kingdom.

I just don't see any Scripture in the NT that says we are to keep the Sabbath as a day of rest, and yet there is Scripture that says it's not a problem if someone thinks all days are the same, and we are also told not to judge what one eats or what one does with religious ceremonies.

Matthew 12:12

How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath."

Jesus taught that to do good is lawful on the Sabbath. He pointed out that to doing good was allowed, and the restrictions were waved if one was doing good. If what one was doing something that was "not good", it was not allowed on a Sabbath.

Doing good in this context was saving lives.

Plus if keeping the Sabbath day was such an important issue it would be inconceivable to not think it would be specifically addressed in at least one of the epistles. Yet, we're told not to be concerned with what one does on any given day, especially so called 'important days'.

The epistles were only written in response to specific problems that the Church faced then. Problems such as doctrines of salvation by faith and baptism, sexual immorality, lack of spiritual growth etc.

Sabbath keeping was not a problem then because the early believers kept it, following on from the Jews. There was, therefore, no need to address it.

 

[jarrettcpr]

Then the Law and the Prophets are hanging by one hand.

Not even the "Love the Lord your God..." one?

IMO (and I mean no offense by this) you are keeping half of what must be kept.

If we love our God, we will do what He wants. Ergo, keeping the Law. Not because it saves us, but because we want to please Him.




My point was, the Law you keep, was uttered by God (no less!!) in the same utterance He also made that commands us to keep the Sabbath.

You just threw out part of what God told Moses, in the same part you refer to as what must be kept. I cannot see how that can be justified.

By loving others as we love ourselves is the fulfillment of the law. If you practice that than you're keeping the two greatest commandments (which is then keeping the 10 commandments). By showing our love to others; we show our love for God. So, it wouldn't be only holding onto one or the other, b/c both (2 greatest commandments) are basically the same. Remember even Jesus said, "and the second is like it" referring to love your neighbor as yourself.... So, you can take either or, and both would end up as the same... loving our neighbors as we love ourselves. It wouldn't be only grasping of one and letting go of the other. Both are one in the same.

Says who?

If you are referring to Galatians, Paul was telling them that ONLY FAITH saves us. Paul never taught that circumcision was not abolished, only that it was unnecessary for one to be saved.

There were "Judaisers" who were preaching that to be saved, one had to believe, and also be circumcised. There was a big meeting in Jerusalem regarding this (Acts 15) with the rest of the Church leaders and they affirmed that faith was the only way to salvation.

Are you saying if one doesn't get circumcised then they're breaking the Law?

Again salvation and the rest are two different things. For example: Anaias and Sapphira were 2 believers who were saved, but who will not be entering God's rest.

Do you mean they will not enter heaven? That would be judging ones' soul, if it is. I'm not understand this particular part.

Again, you equate salvation to rest. Tell me something, my brother....

If what you are saying (that the rest is referring to salvation) is true, and that once we are saved, we rest, and Jesus is working through us, how come all people who are saved do not immediately become like Christ, in knowledge, power and annointing of the Spirit?

It's because their work isn't done.

I agree that once we have faith, the work for our salvation is done. However, we still have work to do.

We need to grow spiritually, and read/learn/meditate on the Scriptures.
We need to fulfill the Great Commission.
We need to pray.

We need to do this.

2 Peter 1

5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love.

Note the effort is ours. We are to work for this.

Therefore, as we have not ceased from our work, it cannot be said that we have entered the rest. Those who enter the rest rest from ALL their work.

We have rest b/c there is nothing more we can do to earn our salvation. No more rituals, ceremonies, and offerings.

I think you're mixing up salvation with sanctification here. Sanctification takes time and hard work.

Exactly

so, if what you were saying is true, why would the author of Hebrews need to warn them not to follow the example of the Israelites who left Egypt? After all, according to your definition of "rest", the "Hebrews" audience had already entered into it.

I highlighted where you said this...

Actually no, the author of Hebrews is showing us the correlation between the Israelites in Moses' time with the recipients of Hebrews. They both wavered in their faith (Remember I said in my previous response many of the new Jewish converts to Christianity were thinking about going back to Judaism, so to say the whole audience of Hebrews all had faith/salvation/rest is a reach), and the author of Hebrews is telling them to not follow Israel's sad example, so the author is saying make sure you have faith and keep your faith. Unless you want be like the Israelites before you.

Yes. We are to keep God's Laws. Well, that is if you love God, and Jesus.

Once agian, is it the Mitzvah (613 commandments), the 10 commandments, the 2 greatest commandments, the Royal commandment, or is it all of the commandments that's listed inside of Webers_Home 'Christianity Commandments' thread?

The question is, do we (you/me) love Him. If we do, we will keep His commandments. ALL of them.

See above. Just because someone doesn't keep the Sabbath as the day, deosn't mean they don't keep it. Just like circumcision... the symbolic nature of the Law has transformed.

so what yoke did Jesus free us from? From sin. We are free from sin, not from the Law.

He freed us from both sin and the Law. I've already shown you this, but we're free from the Law.

"So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God." Romans 7:4.

"So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law." Galatians 3:24-25.

"By means of his flesh [Christ] abolished the enmity, the Law of commandments consisting in decrees, that he might create the two peoples in union with himself into one new man and make peace; and that he might fully reconcile both peoples in one body to God through the torture stake, because he had killed off the enmity by means of himself." Ephesians 2:15-16

For me, keeping the Sabbath, as with keeping all of God's commandments, means following what He said.

We are freed from sin to follow God. We are not free to do as we please, in God's Kingdom.

Matthew 12:12

How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath."

Jesus taught that to do good is lawful on the Sabbath. He pointed out that to doing good was allowed, and the restrictions were waved if one was doing good. If what one was doing something that was "not good", it was not allowed on a Sabbath.

Doing good in this context was saving lives.

It's just not for me, and all of my reading tells me nothing about keeping the Sabbath other than the Old Testament. To not be able to paint the house, cut the grass, fix the car, buy icecream, go to a movie, to barbeque, and everything else I could normally on any other day is not freedom.

The epistles were only written in response to specific problems that the Church faced then. Problems such as doctrines of salvation by faith and baptism, sexual immorality, lack of spiritual growth etc.

Sabbath keeping was not a problem then because the early believers kept it, following on from the Jews. There was, therefore, no need to address it.

There is mentioning of all types of sin in the New Testament, yet breaking the Sabbath was not of of them, though it's suppose to extremely important, why wouldn't it be specificially addressed?

Evil thoughts, fornication, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness, unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil, full of envy, strife, deceit, malice, slanderers, haters of God, swindlers, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, untrustworthy, unmerciful, immorality, impurity, sensuality, liars, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, selfish ambiton, homosexual offenders, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, revilers, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, and etc.

No mentioning... breakers of the Sabbath.

 

[NaLuvena]

By loving others as we love ourselves is the fulfillment of the law. If you practice that than you're keeping the two greatest commandments (which is then keeping the 10 commandments). By showing our love to others; we show our love for God. So, it wouldn't be only holding onto one or the other, b/c both (2 greatest commandments) are basically the same. Remember even Jesus said, "and the second is like it" referring to love your neighbor as yourself.... So, you can take either or, and both would end up as the same... loving our neighbors as we love ourselves. It wouldn't be only grasping of one and letting go of the other. Both are one in the same.

By showing our love for others, we fulfill the 2nd greatest commandment.

The greatest is fulfilled by following God's commandments.

John 14:15

If you love me, you will obey what I command.

Are you saying if one doesn't get circumcised then they're breaking the Law?

I'm saying that circumcision is not abolished, just the Law never was. All Paul is pointing out to the Galatians is that for salvation, faith ONLY is the requirement. Circumcision is not required to save someone.

FYI..even Paul practiced circumcision, so if what you are saying holds, then Paul was guilty of not practicing what he preached.

Do you mean they will not enter heaven? That would be judging ones' soul, if it is. I'm not understand this particular part.

Peter judged them, and they died. Peter's judgement was by the Holy Spirit. I take that to mean that they would not enter Heaven, unless you somehow think they will. If so, I'd be interested to hear your take on this.

We have rest b/c there is nothing more we can do to earn our salvation. No more rituals, ceremonies, and offerings.

Again, this is post salvation I am talking about. All this time, I've been talking about what a Christian must do after they repent and believe, and are given the Holy Spirit.

I think you're mixing up salvation with sanctification here. Sanctification takes time and hard work.

I apologise if I wasn't clear on the salvation/sanctification bit. I thought I was.

As you said yourself, sactification takes work, which is why it cannot be said that we have entered the rest. If we had, we would be resting, and not working.

So, if we are still working and not resting, to say that the Sabbath has been done away with is not correct IMO, because the rest it points to has not been achieved.

It fits perfectly with Hebrews 4, if you read it in that light. If you read it with the understanding that the rest is already entered, then the warnings in vs 1 and 11 are redundant.

Actually no, the author of Hebrews is showing us the correlation between the Israelites in Moses' time with the recipients of Hebrews. They both wavered in their faith (Remember I said in my previous response many of the new Jewish converts to Christianity were thinking about going back to Judaism, so to say the whole audience of Hebrews all had faith/salvation/rest is a reach), and the author of Hebrews is telling them to not follow Israel's sad example, so the author is saying make sure you have faith and keep your faith. Unless you want be like the Israelites before you.

So, if they had entered the rest (the audience Hebrews was addressing), why would they need the warning?

The warning would only be valid if the hearer had not entered the rest.

Once agian, is it the Mitzvah (613 commandments), the 10 commandments, the 2 greatest commandments, the Royal commandment, or is it all of the commandments that's listed inside of Webers_Home 'Christianity Commandments' thread?

All of the ones you listed, with the exception of Webers list. That is the exception, not because it is wrong, but I haven't read the whole thing, so I cannot say that it is/isn't valid.

What i've read however, I have no problem following.

See above. Just because someone doesn't keep the Sabbath as the day, deosn't mean they don't keep it. Just like circumcision... the symbolic nature of the Law has transformed.

Again, if the rest is not achieved, the sign still remains.

The animal sacrifices have stopped because the real sacrifice has been offered.

He freed us from both sin and the Law. I've already shown you this, but we're free from the Law.

We're free from the Law of sin and death, written on tablets of stone, to follow the Law of the Spirit, written on our hearts and minds.


Romans 3:31

Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

"So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God." Romans 7:4.

Again the written Law.

"So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law." Galatians 3:24-25.

Refers to the written Law.

"By means of his flesh [Christ] abolished the enmity, the Law of commandments consisting in decrees, that he might create the two peoples in union with himself into one new man and make peace; and that he might fully reconcile both peoples in one body to God through the torture stake, because he had killed off the enmity by means of himself." Ephesians 2:15-16

The emnity has been abolished, not the Law.

Romans 8:1

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.

It's just not for me, and all of my reading tells me nothing about keeping the Sabbath other than the Old Testament. To not be able to paint the house, cut the grass, fix the car, buy icecream, go to a movie, to barbeque, and everything else I could normally on any other day is not freedom.

Does anything you read in the NT directly put aside the Sabbath? Or are the reasons doctrines based on scriptures in the NT?

Also, how can one keep one part of the Law and ignore some other part? Isn't that against the "breaking one law is breaking all" principle? Surely, if one had to be consistent, then the ENTIRE law must be set aside.

There is mentioning of all types of sin in the New Testament, yet breaking the Sabbath was not of of them, though it's suppose to extremely important, why wouldn't it be specificially addressed?

Evil thoughts, fornication, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness, unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil, full of envy, strife, deceit, malice, slanderers, haters of God, swindlers, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, untrustworthy, unmerciful, immorality, impurity, sensuality, liars, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, selfish ambiton, homosexual offenders, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, revilers, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, and etc.

No mentioning... breakers of the Sabbath.

Are you saying that the list you posed is an exhaustive list, and covers ALL sins possible?

You miss the point of the Epistles.

The Epistles were written to address problems the early believers faced. Sabbath breaking was not one of them. The Epistles only adress problems they faced then.

 

[freeport]

In revelations john says "On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit..." he is referring to today's Sunday not the sabbath. Some translations/paraphrases will even use the word sunday. The "Lord's Day" is the celebration of Jesus' resurrection and the sabbath is the honoring the day of rest when God finished creating the world and had a day of rest. They are not the same thing so don't believe people saying sunday is just a christian sabbath because they have completely different reasons why they are honored (whether you know them or not).

I don't know what days of the week they called it back in the day but we know Jesus died the day before the sabbath and rose the day after the sabbath which became known as "the Lord's Day" and in today's calendar is Sunday.

When I was a kid I was told I had to dress up to go church or not really do anything else on sunday because of the 4th commandment. But since sunday is not the sabbath and is instead a traditional celebration on the day Jesus rose from the grave how do we observe the 4th commandment? It says in Romans 14:5 "One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind." You might say that the verse is taken out of context and is referring to the many ceremonies and celebrations the Jews had, not to the sabbath. But I would say the sabbath is part of of those many ceremonies and celebrations especially to a roman to whom the verse was written for.

Every day is the same, but there is no problem with special days, if one does so with good conscience.

The real Sabbath spoken of in the Law is not a single "day" but "The Day", the thousand years of the millennium spoken of in Revelation.

 

[jarrettcpr]

By showing our love for others, we fulfill the 2nd greatest commandment.

The greatest is fulfilled by following God's commandments.

John 14:15

If you love me, you will obey what I command.

Remember that Jesus said the second greatest commandment is like it. Meaning both are one in the same. By loving your neighbor with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, would be as if you're loving God with all your heard, soul, mind and strength. That's exactly why loving your neighbor as yourself is the fulfillment of the Law.

I'm saying that circumcision is not abolished, just the Law never was. All Paul is pointing out to the Galatians is that for salvation, faith ONLY is the requirement. Circumcision is not required to save someone.

FYI..even Paul practiced circumcision, so if what you are saying holds, then Paul was guilty of not practicing what he preached.

By your assessment above, if one day I have a son if don't get him circumcised then I'd be breaking the Law, and as you've said that's written in James, I would now have broken every letter of the Law.

Below I'll address that we are not under the Old Testament law.

Peter judged them, and they died. Peter's judgement was by the Holy Spirit. I take that to mean that they would not enter Heaven, unless you somehow think they will. If so, I'd be interested to hear your take on this.

Maybe, maybe not. I try stay away from judging ones' soul. Unless it's written that they would or would not enter heaved, I won't assume or presume anything.

I apologise if I wasn't clear on the salvation/sanctification bit. I thought I was.

As you said yourself, sactification takes work, which is why it cannot be said that we have entered the rest. If we had, we would be resting, and not working.

So, if we are still working and not resting, to say that the Sabbath has been done away with is not correct IMO, because the rest it points to has not been achieved.

It fits perfectly with Hebrews 4, if you read it in that light. If you read it with the understanding that the rest is already entered, then the warnings in vs 1 and 11 are redundant.

So, if they had entered the rest (the audience Hebrews was addressing), why would they need the warning?

The warning would only be valid if the hearer had not entered the rest.

The point I've been trying to make this whole time addressed your last two sentences. I always kept referring back to the author of Hebrews and the the recipients to which it was written to. The author of Hebrews knew the recipients wavered in their faith just like the Israelites before them in Moses' time (This is why he mentions the very fact). Remember these new Jewish converts to Christianity were thinking about going back to Judaism. It's safe to assume not all were in faith, therefore not entered the rest. The meaning of Hebrews was telling those people to not follow the Israelites' sad example before them. The author of Hebrews is saying make sure you have and keep your faith in Christ Jesus.

All of the ones you listed, with the exception of Webers list. That is the exception, not because it is wrong, but I haven't read the whole thing, so I cannot say that it is/isn't valid.

What i've read however, I have no problem following.

We're not under Old Testament law. I think you're missing that the law code was given to Israel not to Christians. Christians are under the new covenant, not the old. If we were under the old it could not be called new. You're a slave if your under the law of the Old Testament.

"Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. For it is written,

"Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor!
For the children of the desolate one will be more
than those of the one who has a husband."
Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now. But what does the Scripture say? "Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman." So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman."

Below is the first verse in the very next chapter of Galatians...

"For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery." (Galatians 4:21-31 and Galatians 5:1)

Remember in James 2:10 "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it."

Have you read the Mitzvah (613 commandments) and keep all of them. Remember if you stumble at just one then you break them all. Either all of it applies, or none of it applies. If Christ fulfilled some of it, such as the sacrificial system, He fulfilled all of it.

We're free from the Law of sin and death, written on tablets of stone, to follow the Law of the Spirit, written on our hearts and minds.

Romans 3:31

Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

The emnity has been abolished, not the Law.

Romans 8:1

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.

Yes, we are free from the law of sin and death. But, we are also free from the law of commandments contained in ordinances. The below Scripture is not about sin and death, but about all those laws on the Old Testament given to Israel.

"Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace" (Ephesians 2:15)

Does anything you read in the NT directly put aside the Sabbath? Or are the reasons doctrines based on scriptures in the NT?

Yes, I have reasoning why a do not keep the Sabbath as in the day of rest.

"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." (Colossians 2:16-17)

"One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." (Romans 14:5)

Also, by reading and understand other Scripture tells us that Christ set us free and are not under law, that keeping the Sabbath with all its rules and regulations is a big contradiction that I personally can't overcome. That's why I don't keep the Sabbath as in the day of rest.

Also, how can one keep one part of the Law and ignore some other part? Isn't that against the "breaking one law is breaking all" principle? Surely, if one had to be consistent, then the ENTIRE law must be set aside.

B/c I'm under the new covenant. I'm not under law, but we should love our neighbor as ourselves (By doing this we also show our love for God). Now, even though I'm not under law, I believe we should try and fulfill/keep loving our neighbor as we love ourselves. Anyone under the law is cursed, as Paul said. I've addressed this earlier.

Are you saying that the list you posed is an exhaustive list, and covers ALL sins possible?

You miss the point of the Epistles.

The Epistles were written to address problems the early believers faced. Sabbath breaking was not one of them. The Epistles only adress problems they faced then.

Yes, it would be hard to find a sin that would not be covered somehow in the New Testament.

The Sabbath was mentioned, and it wasn't a problem what one does or doesn't do on any so called 'important' days. Not only that but it doesn't matter if one person considers a certain day more important than another and vice versa.

 

[NaLuvena]

Remember that Jesus said the second greatest commandment is like it. Meaning both are one in the same. By loving your neighbor with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, would be as if you're loving God with all your heard, soul, mind and strength. That's exactly why loving your neighbor as yourself is the fulfillment of the Law.

Not true.

The 2 commandments are LIKE each other, they are not "one and the same." The greatest says:

Deuteronomy 6:5

Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.

And to keep it:

John 14:15

If you love me, you will obey what I command.

We do ALL that God commands. The second commandment says:

Leviticus 19:18

Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.

And to keep it:

Luke 6:31

Do to others as you would have them do to you.

To keep the greatest, God decides what is done. Do keep the 2nd, we decide what is done, the criteria being it must be what we'd want others to do to us. They are not the same, the only similarity being they are done with love as the motive.

By your assessment above, if one day I have a son if don't get him circumcised then I'd be breaking the Law, and as you've said that's written in James, I would now have broken every letter of the Law.

Below I'll address that we are not under the Old Testament law.

I never said that.

All I said is that your claim that Paul taught that circumcision is abolished is false. Logically following on from there, if circumcision is not abolished, then you cannot use that as the basis to claim the Law was abolished.

Maybe, maybe not. I try stay away from judging ones' soul. Unless it's written that they would or would not enter heaved, I won't assume or presume anything.

I have no problem with that.....
Nice sidestep though....

The point I've been trying to make this whole time addressed your last two sentences. I always kept referring back to the author of Hebrews and the the recipients to which it was written to. The author of Hebrews knew the recipients wavered in their faith just like the Israelites before them in Moses' time (This is why he mentions the very fact). Remember these new Jewish converts to Christianity were thinking about going back to Judaism. It's safe to assume not all were in faith, therefore not entered the rest. The meaning of Hebrews was telling those people to not follow the Israelites' sad example before them. The author of Hebrews is saying make sure you have and keep your faith in Christ Jesus.

Unfortunately, Hebrews doesn't support what you said.

Here are the warnings:

Hebrews 4

1Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it.

11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.



Note the word "us". If the warning was only for those who (as you said) were "wavering in their faith" then the pronoun "us" would not have been used. The author of Hebrews includes himself in this warning, that EVEN HE has to be careful of falling short of the rest, that EVEN HE must ensure that he keeps his faith.


So unless you can show that the author of Hebrews himself wavered in the faith, what you are saying is not supported by the passage.

We're not under Old Testament law. I think you're missing that the law code was given to Israel not to Christians. Christians are under the new covenant, not the old. If we were under the old it could not be called new. You're a slave if your under the law of the Old Testament.

"Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. For it is written,

"Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor!
For the children of the desolate one will be more
than those of the one who has a husband."
Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now. But what does the Scripture say? "Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman." So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman."

Below is the first verse in the very next chapter of Galatians...

"For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery." (Galatians 4:21-31 and Galatians 5:1)

Remember in James 2:10 "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it."

Yet you are holding on to one of the OT laws.

Deuteronomy 19:18

Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.

If you do that, surely you should keep all the rest.

Have you read the Mitzvah (613 commandments) and keep all of them. Remember if you stumble at just one then you break them all. Either all of it applies, or none of it applies. If Christ fulfilled some of it, such as the sacrificial system, He fulfilled all of it.

Christ came to fulfill the Law, however that fulfillment is not completely done. he himself said that the NOTHING in the Law would pass away until it had been completey fulfilled.

Yes, we are free from the law of sin and death. But, we are also free from the law of commandments contained in ordinances. The below Scripture is not about sin and death, but about all those laws on the Old Testament given to Israel.

"Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace" (Ephesians 2:15)

Yes, I have reasoning why a do not keep the Sabbath as in the day of rest.

"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." (Colossians 2:16-17)

"One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." (Romans 14:5)

Also, by reading and understand other Scripture tells us that Christ set us free and are not under law, that keeping the Sabbath with all its rules and regulations is a big contradiction that I personally can't overcome. That's why I don't keep the Sabbath as in the day of rest.

Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree then....

B/c I'm under the new covenant. I'm not under law, but we should love our neighbor as ourselves (By doing this we also show our love for God). Now, even though I'm not under law, I believe we should try and fulfill/keep loving our neighbor as we love ourselves. Anyone under the law is cursed, as Paul said. I've addressed this earlier.

Even the new covenant has the Law. Only the covenants were changed, not the Laws, which are eternal.

Yes, it would be hard to find a sin that would not be covered somehow in the New Testament.

The Sabbath was mentioned, and it wasn't a problem what one does or doesn't do on any so called 'important' days. Not only that but it doesn't matter if one person considers a certain day more important than another and vice versa.

Like I said, it wasn't an issue then which was why it was never addressed, as they kept it the way it was supposed to be kept.

 

[jarrettcpr]

Not true.

The 2 commandments are LIKE each other, they are not "one and the same." The greatest says:

Deuteronomy 6:5

Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.

And to keep it:

John 14:15

If you love me, you will obey what I command.

We do ALL that God commands. The second commandment says:

Leviticus 19:18

Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.

And to keep it:

Luke 6:31

Do to others as you would have them do to you.

To keep the greatest, God decides what is done. Do keep the 2nd, we decide what is done, the criteria being it must be what we'd want others to do to us. They are not the same, the only similarity being they are done with love as the motive.

I don't know, if they were so different why is it written " For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” (Galatians 5:14)

Either there is a contradiction being that the above verse is false (B/c it's missing the 1st and greatest commandment for it to fulfill the Law) or the above verse is in fact the fulfillment of all of God's commands. Only by loving God the way we're told to would we begin to love our neighbors as ourselves.

I never said that.

All I said is that your claim that Paul taught that circumcision is abolished is false. Logically following on from there, if circumcision is not abolished, then you cannot use that as the basis to claim the Law was abolished.

"Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts." (1 Corinthians 7:19)

It seems like from the above Paul is not saying circumcision is part of the Law and if he is, he has a strange way in showing it. You see when Christ died we're no longer under Old Testament law.

I have no problem with that.....
Nice sidestep though....

I thought you was gonna' get me at what about context. lol. I draw the line at determining one's eternal fate. If it doesn't directly say what happened, then I want make an opinion as far as one's soul goes.

Unfortunately, Hebrews doesn't support what you said.

Here are the warnings:

Hebrews 4

1Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it.

11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.

Note the word "us". If the warning was only for those who (as you said) were "wavering in their faith" then the pronoun "us" would not have been used. The author of Hebrews includes himself in this warning, that EVEN HE has to be careful of falling short of the rest, that EVEN HE must ensure that he keeps his faith.

So unless you can show that the author of Hebrews himself wavered in the faith, what you are saying is not supported by the passage.

To me this isn't what's holding me back to keeping or not keeping the Sabbath. Above, I highlighted and enlarged a key word that you missed. I took some English classes before and I know 'you' can be plural, but it is not used to address both an audience and yourself at the same time (I could be wrong). Also, read the very next verse right before Hebrews 4. "So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief" (Hebrews 3:19) Then... "Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let usbe careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it." (Hebrews 4:1)

What I get out of Hebrews 3 and 4 is make sure you have and keep your faith to the end in Christ Jesus. I don't draw any conculsions that says we're suppose to keep the Sabbath day. Yet, I draw you can only have rest in Christ and that only happens when we have faith. It's faith and by keeping your faith do you have salvation.

Deuteronomy 19:18

Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.

If you do that, surely you should keep all the rest.

You say I'm holding onto an Old Testament Law, but it's the New Testament law I hold onto (Yes, I know Jesus quoted it from the Old Testament, but b/c he did it becomes a New Testament law), if Jesus quoted more laws from the Mitzvah (613 commandmants) then I would follow them, but he didn't. Yet, he did however quote the ones about loving God and your neighbor, and b/c of that I try and follow those two. But to fulfill the law is to love thy neighbor as we love ourselves. That's why I say I 'hang' onto that law.

Christ came to fulfill the Law, however that fulfillment is not completely done. he himself said that the NOTHING in the Law would pass away until it had been completey fulfilled.

That's just it though. We're not under the Law. If we are as Paul said we're cursed, and as James said if you break just one, then you have broken them all b/c they are a unit.

We can't pick and choose which ones we will keep and not keep. It's either all or nothing. Do you say Shema twice daily? Women must not wear men's clothing (Say if you're married you can't wear your husband's big shirt or boxers and etc)? Do you put an Mezuzah on each doorpost? Males have to write a Torah scroll. Also, men have to marry their brothers' widow if left chidless. Do you go to Jerusalam 3 times a year? Do you make sure your food is perfectly kosher? Do you borrow money with interest? Do you wear clothes woven of two different threads?

Thank God for sending Jesus to do away with the above.

Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree then....

See, we can agree on some things.

Even the new covenant has the Law. Only the covenants were changed, not the Laws, which are eternal.

The moral laws are eternal, but the rituals, ceremonies, dietary laws, and everything else is done away with. The only law for us is to love our neigbhors as we love ourselves.

Like I said, it wasn't an issue then which was why it was never addressed, as they kept it the way it was supposed to be kept.

"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." (Colossians 2:16-17)

"One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." (Romans 14:5)

We're told it doesn't matter what one does or doesn't do on any particular day nonetheless so called 'holy' days.

Plus, as I've mentioned before it's the fact the Sabbath has regulations which I'm personally against.

 

[NaLuvena]

I don't know, if they were so different why is it written " For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” (Galatians 5:14)

Either there is a contradiction being that the above verse is false (B/c it's missing the 1st and greatest commandment for it to fulfill the Law) or the above verse is in fact the fulfillment of all of God's commands. Only by loving God the way we're told to would we begin to love our neighbors as ourselves.

No contradiction. The word that fulfills the entire Law is love. Without love, we are nothing.

"Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts." (1 Corinthians 7:19)

It seems like from the above Paul is not saying circumcision is part of the Law and if he is, he has a strange way in showing it. You see when Christ died we're no longer under Old Testament law.

We're no longer under the OT Covenant. The same Law that applied from then till now.

Christ himself said the Law will not go away, that was not His purpose. It was to fulfill it. By saying that the Law is done away with, you're saying something that Jesus said would not happen.

I thought you was gonna' get me at what about context. lol. I draw the line at determining one's eternal fate. If it doesn't directly say what happened, then I want make an opinion as far as one's soul goes.

No, I understand what you're getting at....

To me this isn't what's holding me back to keeping or not keeping the Sabbath. Above, I highlighted and enlarged a key word that you missed. I took some English classes before and I know 'you' can be plural, but it is not used to address both an audience and yourself at the same time (I could be wrong). Also, read the very next verse right before Hebrews 4. "So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief" (Hebrews 3:19) Then... "Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let usbe careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it." (Hebrews 4:1)

What I get out of Hebrews 3 and 4 is make sure you have and keep your faith to the end in Christ Jesus. I don't draw any conculsions that says we're suppose to keep the Sabbath day. Yet, I draw you can only have rest in Christ and that only happens when we have faith. It's faith and by keeping your faith do you have salvation.

What I get out of Hebrews 3 and 4 is that we should do WHATEVER IT TAKES to ensure we enter the rest. IMO, that includes keeping your faith as well as doing what God wants us to do.

You say I'm holding onto an Old Testament Law, but it's the New Testament law I hold onto (Yes, I know Jesus quoted it from the Old Testament, but b/c he did it becomes a New Testament law), if Jesus quoted more laws from the Mitzvah (613 commandmants) then I would follow them, but he didn't. Yet, he did however quote the ones about loving God and your neighbor, and b/c of that I try and follow those two. But to fulfill the law is to love thy neighbor as we love ourselves. That's why I say I 'hang' onto that law.

I don't even see it as OT Law or NT Law. The Law is eternal, the covenants are not. To say that the Law that applied OT does not apply NT is not in line with what Jesus said.

When asked what one must do to gain eternal life, Jesus said to keep the commandments.

That's just it though. We're not under the Law. If we are as Paul said we're cursed, and as James said if you break just one, then you have broken them all b/c they are a unit.

We can't pick and choose which ones we will keep and not keep. It's either all or nothing. Do you say Shema twice daily? Women must not wear men's clothing (Say if you're married you can't wear your husband's big shirt or boxers and etc)? Do you put an Mezuzah on each doorpost? Males have to write a Torah scroll. Also, men have to marry their brothers' widow if left chidless. Do you go to Jerusalam 3 times a year? Do you make sure your food is perfectly kosher? Do you borrow money with interest? Do you wear clothes woven of two different threads?

Thank God for sending Jesus to do away with the above.

So if they are a unit, how can you throw out one and keep others? I'm not the one picking and choosing which ones to keep and which ones to throw out, you are.

You're keeping the "Love your neighbour" Law and throwing out some others.

What I'm saying is that we need to keep the Law, however the application of the Law has changed. While the Law does not save us, we will be called lawbreakers by Christ if we do not keep it.

Granted we cannot keep the Law as we are now, but the Law itself provides for that, via the sacrifice. And that, Jesus fulfilled.

BTW... I'm the one who wears the boxers in my marriage.

See, we can agree on some things.

The moral laws are eternal, but the rituals, ceremonies, dietary laws, and everything else is done away with. The only law for us is to love our neigbhors as we love ourselves.

The Law was not done away with.

"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." (Colossians 2:16-17)

"One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." (Romans 14:5)

We're told it doesn't matter what one does or doesn't do on any particular day nonetheless so called 'holy' days.

Plus, as I've mentioned before it's the fact the Sabbath has regulations which I'm personally against.

What regulations are the ones you are against?