What is the rock being referred to in Matthew 16:18

[concretecamper]

Moses died too. But the "Seat of Moses" didnt end with his death.

 

[topher694]

The idea that the rock is Peter's confession was never taught by the Church, and for good reason.

Baloney. The idea that it was Peter may well have been taught. You may agree with that assessment, but to say that the idea it was Peter's confession was never taught is ridiculous. This debate has been going on for centuries, millenia even.

 

[topher694]

For those who believe the foundation rock is Peter, let me ask you this: Would Jesus build His church on a satanic foundation?

Because, just a few verses after the rock revelation Jesus begins to teach that He must suffer, die and be raised on the third day... btw, what are the two primary foundation teaching in Christianity? That Jesus is the Son of God and that He suffered, died and rose again for us. Here we have Jesus teaching both within a few verses... but how does Peter respond? He rebukes Jesus and says that shall not happen. To which Jesus says, "Get behind Me, Satan!"

So, again, why would Jesus build His church on a satanic foundation vs the revelation that Jesus is the Son of God?

 

[Scott Husted]

What is the rock being referred to in Matthew 16:18?

Whom the Father reveals in us ...

 

[chevyontheriver]

There's the 3rd far less popular explanation about what 'THIS rock' is referring to. It involves the historical context of what people believed during the second temple period. Basically the disciples in the first century would be aware of a third rock present at their location. That third rock would neither be Christ or Peter but the location they were standing on.

What Did Jesus Mean by “Gates of Hell”? | The Logos Blog

I believe they were by the massif at Caesarea Philippi when Jesus spoke these words.

 

[Palmfever]

Moses died too. But the "Seat of Moses" didnt end with his death.

I suspect all my possessions will last some time after my death also.
Jesus mentioned the phrase Moses’ seat in Matthew 23:2 when He said, “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in chair of Moses. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach…”
The "seat of Moses" was just that, a chair.
And Peter was just another man like you or I. God used him. Yet if he had never been born, God would have used someone else.
Christ is our hope and salvation. Christ died for us. Peter denied knowing Him.
I'm not putting Peter down, simply keep the focus on that which the church is built on... Jesus Christ

In Christ

 

[BNR32FAN]

It really doesn't make sense that it could refer to anyone or anything other than Peter, to whom Christ was speaking.

That doesn't mean that all the theories which have flowed from this conversation are correct, but the answer to your question, as asked, does seem definitely to be "Peter."

I agree there was a reason Jesus changed his name from Simon to Peter or Petros which means rock.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The foundation being eternal makes sense.

In terms of the reference being solely about Peter, it doesn't fit what we see in Acts 15. It is not Peter who is head of the church, but James, the brother of Jesus. Peter is at the council, and functions as a witness but not as head of the assembly.

That may not be the case, It could’ve also been that what James said was only to confirm his agreement with what the rest of the apostles had already said.

 

[concretecamper]

Baloney. The idea that it was Peter may well have been taught. You may agree with that assessment, but to say that the idea it was Peter's confession was never taught is ridiculous. This debate has been going on for centuries, millenia even.

you can of course come up with individuals that taught something different. But I DID NOT reference individuals, did I.

 

[concretecamper]

I suspect all my possessions will last some time after my death also.

haha, if anything this statement is funny.

The "seat of Moses" was just that, a chair.

do some research and find out what the Jewish people of that time viewed the Seat of Moses. Your answer suggests ignorance.

Christ is our hope and salvation

of course, but what does this have to do with the discussion?

I'm not putting Peter down, simply keep the focus on that which the church is built on... Jesus Christ

sorry, but you cannot know the Church without knowing its history and where it came from.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Honestly I think so many people want to reject the idea that the Rock refers to Peter simply because the RCC says it does. This is the same reason we have doctrines like faith alone and eternal security. People are so opposed to RCC teachings that they simply refuse to accept them. There needs to be a balance in our discernment where we don’t reject the obvious just because it might give some credibility to the Roman Church’s teachings. Don’t get me wrong I disagree with a large portion of what the RCC teaches but this is not one of them. I think Jesus renamed Simon to Peter for an obvious reason.

 

[Palmfever]

haha, if anything this statement is funny.
do some research and find out what the Jewish people of that time viewed the Seat of Moses. Your answer suggests ignorance.
of course, but what does this have to do with the discussion?
sorry, but you cannot know the Church without knowing its history and where it came from.

Stick with your history. I'll stick with scripture.

 

[timothyu]

I think it means Peter is one rock of the building that is God's temple.

A chip off the ol' block.

 

[topher694]

you can of course come up with individuals that taught something different. But I DID NOT reference individuals, did I.

Oh, I see. So the "church" only consists of who you approve of. Got it.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

But if so, you could conclude that the passage in Matthew (which, however, does not appear to be full of analogies or mysterious symbolism) could mean almost anything you might want it to mean.

No, because there would be no precedent for it. I just showed you how Christ was known to have used present examples when talking about himself, and that it created confusion, probably intentionally. I don't see evidence that his words could be interpreted any way I want.

If you had employed that argument with regard to his claim that he could rebuild the temple in three days, then the only conclusion you could reach was that he was actually talking about the physical building, rather than himself, which is false. Yet, despite the fact that his choice of words literally could be interpreted no other way, he was, nonetheless, talking about himself.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Disputes on this topic are quite old.

St. John Chrysostom understands here that the rock upon which Christ builds His Church is the confession of the Apostle,

"'And I say unto you, You are Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church;' that is, on the faith of his confession. Hereby He signifies that many were now on the point of believing, and raises his spirit, and makes him a shepherd. 'And the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.' 'And if not against it, much more not against me. So be not troubled because you are shortly to hear that I shall be betrayed and crucified.'" - St. John Chrysostom, Homily 54 on Matthew, 3

St. Augustine speaks of having in other places said Peter is the rock upon which the Church is built, but in his Retractions brings more clarity and invites the reader to consider whether it should be taken to mean Peter himself or Peter's confession and thus Christ Himself:

"I have said in a certain place of the Apostle Peter, that it was on him, as on a rock, that the Church was built. But I know that since that I have often explained these words of the Lord, Thou art Peter, and on this rock will I build my Church, as meaning upon Him whom Peter had confessed in the words, Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God; and so that Peter, taking his name from this rock, would represent the Church, which is built upon this rock. For it is not said to him, Thou art the rock, but, Thou art Peter. But the rock was Christ, whom because Simon thus confessed, as the whole Church confesses Him, he was named Peter. Let the reader choose whether of these two opinions seems to him the more probable." - St. Augustine of Hippo, Retractions 1.24 (quote here taken from the Catena Aurea of Thomas Aquinas)

Earlier we have in Tertulian's apologetic/polemic against Marcion, he writes,

"Was anything withheld from the knowledge of Peter, who is called 'the rock on which the church should be built,'" - Tertullian, Against Marcion, ch. 22

Origen in his Commentaries on John mentions the following in passing while discussing the writings left by the Apostles,

"And Peter, on whom the Church of Christ is built, against which the gates of hell shall not prevail left only one epistle of acknowledged genuineness." - Origen, Commentaries on John, 5.3

While in his Commentaries on Matthew the same Origen says,

"if we say it as Peter, not by flesh and blood revealing it unto us, but by the light from the Father in heaven shining in our heart, we too become as Peter, being pronounced blessed as he was, because that the grounds on which he was pronounced blessed apply also to us, by reason of the fact that flesh and blood have not revealed to us with regard to Jesus that He is Christ, the Son of the living God, but the Father in heaven, from the very heavens, that our citizenship may be in heaven, revealing to us the revelation which carries up to heaven those who take away every veil from the heart, and receive "the spirit of the wisdom and revelation" of God. And if we too have said like Peter, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God," not as if flesh and blood had revealed it unto us, but by light from the Father in heaven having shone in our heart, we become a Peter, and to us there might be said by the Word, "You are Peter," etc. For a rock is every disciple of Christ of whom those drank who drank of the spiritual rock which followed them, and upon every such rock is built every word of the church, and the polity in accordance with it; for in each of the perfect, who have the combination of words and deeds and thoughts which fill up the blessedness, is the church built by God." - Origen, Commentaries on Matthew, 12.10

This is hardly exhaustive, but it does provide some insight into the ways the ancient fathers saw and understood the text.

-CryptoLutheran

I tend to see a cultural divide in how distinctions are made when I read the ECFs.

I see the arguments but come to the same conclusion as before, but they say the mortal man is the rock.

So I just chalk it up to culture changing and and something being lost in translation.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I've read through all the replies since my last visit to the thread, I've enjoyed the respectful conversation. It has been edifying to read, thank you.

 

[PaulCyp1]

That becomes obvious when you consider that "Peter" was never considered to be a person's name until that moment. The man Jesus was speaking to was named Simon. "Peter" was just a noun, meaning "stone", or "rock". So, when Jesus told Simon that He was to be "rock", He was stating that Simon was to be the foundation, the source of stability for the Church Jesus was founding - the authority which would allow His Church to remain unified and stable until the end of time. Which is why that one Church remains one in belief, one in teaching, one in worship, one in biblical understanding throughout the world after 2,000 years, while those who have defected from His Church have fragmented into thousands of conflicting denominations in just a few hundred years.

 

[One Son]

What is the rock being referred to in Matthew 16:18?

Deut.32:3(BSB) For I will proclaim the name of the LORD.Ascribe greatness to our God!
4He is the Rock, His work is perfect;all His ways are just.

1Sam.2:2 There is no one holy like the LORD. Indeed, there is no one besides You! And there is no Rock like our God.

2Sam.22:3 My God is my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield, and the horn of my salvation. My stronghold, my refuge, and my Savior, You save me from violence.

2Sam.22:32 For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God?

Ps.18:2 The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower.

Ps.18:31 For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God?

Ps.62:1 In God alone my soul finds rest;my salvation comes from Him.
2 He alone is my rock and my salvation.He is my fortress;I will never be shaken.


6He alone is my rock and my salvation;He is my fortress; I will not be shaken.
7My salvation and my honor rest on God, my strong rock;my refuge is in God.
8Trust in Him at all times, O people;pour out your hearts before Him.God is our refuge.


Is.26:4 Trust in the LORD forever, because GOD the LORD is the Rock eternal.

Is.44:8 Do not tremble or fear. Have I not told you and declared it long ago? You are My witnesses! Is there any God but Me? There is no other Rock; I know not one."




Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. (2Cor.5:17).

 

[Saint JOHN]

GOD

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Peter (small stone pebble etc) God BIG ROCK