What is the rock being referred to in Matthew 16:18

[topher694]

you evidently dont know me. If I wanted to say something, I would.
you had a question? You never asked me a question. You may have asked someone else.
He wouldn't and didn't. Did you get that silly idea from the bible

Here:

For those who believe the foundation rock is Peter, let me ask you this: Would Jesus build His church on a satanic foundation?

Because, just a few verses after the rock revelation Jesus begins to teach that He must suffer, die and be raised on the third day... btw, what are the two primary foundation teaching in Christianity? That Jesus is the Son of God and that He suffered, died and rose again for us. Here we have Jesus teaching both within a few verses... but how does Peter respond? He rebukes Jesus and says that shall not happen. To which Jesus says, "Get behind Me, Satan!"

So, again, why would Jesus build His church on a satanic foundation vs the revelation that Jesus is the Son of God?

 

[Albion]

Peter is a stone and Jesus being the Messiah is the ledge rock and upon the ledge rock Jesus would build the church, not off the pebble.

but the Apostles are the master builders according to the corner stone! YOu may not like th eexample, but it is biblical. The foundation which the apostles build on is Jesus is messiah. Everything is built off the fact of Jesus is Messiah, not on the apostles being chips off the ole block.

What you are explaining is one more attempt to make something else in Scripture, even if true, be the meaning of this particular passage. That's not an interpretation of the words in this passage; it's just an exercise in making something "fit."

That said, you might have a point IF there were no particular significance to this exchange between Peter and Christ. But we know that there is.

Christ is absolutely saying that he's going to build his church on Peter. But he isn't saying he's going to found it on Peter.

After three years of his public ministry, Jesus has already laid that foundation and only he can do that. It's the building upon that foundation that this is about, the same thing that we read in later verses in that same Gospel by Matthew when Jesus commissions his Apostles to go to "all nations" and make disciples of those peoples. It really is launched by Peter on Pentecost Sunday.

 

[Albion]

He rebukes Jesus and says that shall not happen. To which Jesus says, "Get behind Me, Satan!"

So, again, why would Jesus build His church on a satanic foundation vs the revelation that Jesus is the Son of God?

Jesus was not saying that Peter literally was Satan or that everything associated with Peter was "Satanic." It was a rebuke given in reply to Peter's statement there in which Peter again showed a lack of understanding about what must shortly happen to Jesus.

And with that, it's my feeling that we've all given our explanations and defended them, so we ought not start in again with the same presentations.

 

[chevyontheriver]

And with that, it's my feeling that we've all given our explanations and defended them, so we ought not start in again with the same presentations.

Oh why not. If it doesn't go on for 500 more posts in this thread then there will be a new one in a month. And nothing changes.

 

[topher694]

Jesus was not saying that Peter literally was Satan or that everything associated with Peter was "Satanic." It was a rebuke given in reply to Peter's statement there in which Peter again showed a lack of understanding about what must shortly happen to Jesus.

And with that, it's my feeling that we've all given our explanations and defended them, so we ought not start in again with the same presentations.

Yet, you contend the foundation Jesus referenced the Church is built upon is Peter?

 

[nolidad]

What you are explaining is one more attempt to make something else in Scripture, even if true, be the meaning of this particular passage. That's not an interpretation of the words in this passage; it's just an exercise in making something "fit."

That said, you might have a point IF there were no particular significance to this exchange between Peter and Christ. But we know that there is.

Christ is absolutely saying that he's going to build his church on Peter. But he isn't saying he's going to found it on Peter.

After three years of his public ministry, Jesus has already laid that foundation and only he can do that. It's the building upon that foundation that this is about, the same thing that we read in later verses in that same Gospel by Matthew when Jesus commissions his Apostles to go to "all nations" and make disciples of those peoples. It really is launched by Peter on Pentecost Sunday.

Well I make a point by using the words Jesus spoke petros and then petra!

Peter was not the head of the church!

James led in Jerusalem and Paul was the Apostle to the gentiles and oversaw its expansion in the empire. it was Paul and not Peter that appointed the elders in the gentile wing of the church!

But you can say Peter is the rock- but it is Jesus that is the ROCK! that Jesus builds HIs church on.

 

[concretecamper]

Here:

For those who believe the foundation rock is Peter, let me ask you this: Would Jesus build His church on a satanic foundation?

So the question you accused me of not answering was asked after you accused me of not answering your question?
You cant make stuff up that is funnier than this

Because, just a few verses after the rock revelation Jesus begins to teach that He must suffer, die and be raised on the third day...

so

btw, what are the two primary foundation teaching in Christianity? That Jesus is the Son of God and that He suffered, died and rose again for us. Here we have Jesus teaching both within a few verses... but how does Peter respond? He rebukes Jesus and says that shall not happen. To which Jesus says, "Get behind Me

Peter responded like any of us would have responded. We would have done anything to save our Master and our God from such suffering. Remember, none of the Apostles understood that His passion was necessary. Just like at the beginning of His ministry, Satan attempts to keep Christ from the cross. Remember that Satan told Christ he would give Him all the Kingdoms of the world. He was trying to keep him from the cross then, he was trying to keep Him from the cross here.

So, again, why would Jesus build His church on a satanic foundation vs the revelation that Jesus is the Son of God?

I answered that already, although you falsely accused me of not answering.

 

[timothyu]

Lot of defence of various denominations here. Obviously on shaky foundations, simply because as Jesus said the truth comes from God and not the opinions of man.

 

[topher694]

So the question you accused me of not answering was asked after you accused me of not answering your question?
You cant make stuff up that is funnier than this

NO. I copied and pasted the question from a previous post well before I said anything about you not answering. And you accuse OTHERS of not following along? You're right you can't make stuff up funnier than this.

Peter responded like any of us would have responded. We would have done anything to save our Master and our God from such suffering. Remember, none of the Apostles understood that His passion was necessary. Just like at the beginning of His ministry, Satan attempts to keep Christ from the cross. Remember that Satan told Christ he would give Him all the Kingdoms of the world. He was trying to keep him from the cross then, he was trying to keep Him from the cross here.

This is a classic case of what I call selective interpretation. In one verse you interpret that Jesus is referring to the person of Peter not Peter's words. Then only a few verses later you interpret that Jesus is referring NOT to the person of Peter, but to Peter's words. This lazy, selective interpretation exactly exemplifies the rest of what Jesus said when He rebuked Peter, "You are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men"

I answered that already, although you falsely accused me of not answering.

I addressed this already, although if you didn't follow along before I supposed I shouldn't expect you to follow along now, I mean you've got to put all of your attention on accusing other's not following along to actually, you know, follow along.

 

[Albion]

Yet, you contend the foundation Jesus referenced the Church is built upon is Peter?

Think of it more as meaning "build it up."

 

[Albion]

But you can say Peter is the rock- but it is Jesus that is the ROCK! that Jesus builds HIs church on.

So, Jesus is telling Peter that He, Jesus, is building His Church on Himself, the one who founded it?

 

[Bobber]

As for me I think it's rather startling for people to actually believe Jesus was talking about a flesh and blood man outside of Jesus himself upon who the church would be built.

I'm OK with the belief that Jesus was talking about himself that the church would be built upon but a man outside of him? Jesus became a man but was God incarnate.

I don't actually think though Jesus was talking about him although salvation is found only In Christ. That could be said a real sense that it's built upon him. What I think is overlooked is the subject Jesus in the text brought up. Jesus was talking about the way an manner by which Peter knew this truth that Jesus was the Son of God.

What is the way and manner Peter knew this? By spiritual revelation. Recall what Jesus said, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven." Matt 16:17 How again did the Father reveal it to him? By spiritual revelation. Spiritual revelation is what comes to you not from the mere physical senses or by seeking to reason thing out with the mind. God puts into people where they just KNOW that they KNOW certain things.

In other words Jesus is saying I am building my church by the primary way of spiritual revelation. As many as are led by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God. There might be times where God reveals to you his will and nothing of it makes sense to the natural mind. If God is building his will through your life though you might need at times to go by what you have in you or what's put in you. Really that's the work that will endure. God builds his work or kingdom in how he leads you that is truly Jesus building his work. So upon this rock....spiritual revelation is how he builds his church. Such is why we need to pray each step of our lives to make sure we're hearing from him and getting his direction.

 

[Jamdoc]

and yet, Peter was the one who caused the conversion of 3000 people on Pentecost with a miracle by which people of different languages heard his sermon in their own tongues. This was only days after the event described in Matthew that we have been discussing. There's nothing about that which shows any brush-off of Peter by Christ.

That event on Pentecost was the start of the mass conversions to the church of Christ which the conversation about the foundation of a church and the gates of hell not prevailing against it, etc. had been about.

I'm going to disagree with any time you say that the church is built on anything that points away from Jesus Christ, and not just in a "this is a minor doctrine" sense, but rather as a "what you're saying is heresy" sense.
That's the problem with some denominations, they center around old saints and Mary, even calling her a co-redemptrix, and mediatrix. Roles that only Jesus fills. That's heresy.

 

[Jamdoc]

So, Jesus is telling Peter that He, Jesus, is building His Church on Himself, the one who founded it?

He is the cornerstone that the builders rejected....

 

[Albion]

I'm going to disagree with any time you say that the church is built on anything that points away from Jesus Christ, and not just in a "this is a minor doctrine" sense, but rather as a "what you're saying is heresy" sense.

Well, look, no one is saying that the church of Christ is pointing away from Christ. But we also have to admit that his eternal plan was to ascend to the Father after the Crucifixion and the Resurrection, meaning that he founded his church with the expectation that it would be managed by humans just as is done in every Christian assembly or parish today.

 

[prodromos]

The idea that the rock is Peter's confession was never taught by the Church, and for good reason.

Catholic Archbishop Kenrick of St Louis broke down his research of the Church Fathers as follows

1. "That St. Peter is the Rock" is taught by seventeen (17) Fathers
2. That the whole Apostolic College is the Rock, represented by Peter as its chief, is taught by eight (8) Church Fathers
3. That St. Peter's faith is the Rock, is taught by forty-four (44) church Fathers
4. That Christ is the Rock, is taught by sixteen Fathers (16)
5. That the rock is the whole body of the faithful, Archbp. Kendrick gives no figure.

 

[The Liturgist]

Catholic Archbishop Kenrick of St Louis broke down his research of the Church Fathers as follows

1. "That St. Peter is the Rock" is taught by seventeen (17) Fathers
2. That the whole Apostolic College is the Rock, represented by Peter as its chief, is taught by eight (8) Church Fathers
3. That St. Peter's faith is the Rock, is taught by forty-four (44) church Fathers
4. That Christ is the Rock, is taught by sixteen Fathers (16)
5. That the rock is the whole body of the faithful, Archbp. Kendrick gives no figure.

Interesting. I had assumed position 1 and 2 were the Consensus Patrum, but clearly it is position 3, although I do wish you could link us to some data on which Father said what. Because I value the opinions of the Greek and Syrian fathers more than the Latin fathers, with the exceptions of Saints Ambrose, Isidore, Vincent of Lerins, and Pope Gregory Diologos, and I value the opinions of Saints Irenaeus, Athanasius, the Cappadocians, Epiphanius of Salamis, John Chrysostom, Ephrem, Cyril of Alexandria, Severus of Antioch, Theodore the Studite, John Damascene, Simeon the New and Gregory Palamas more than anyone else.

 

[timothyu]

Catholic Archbishop Kenrick of St Louis broke down his research of the Church Fathers as follows

1. "That St. Peter is the Rock" is taught by seventeen (17) Fathers
2. That the whole Apostolic College is the Rock, represented by Peter as its chief, is taught by eight (8) Church Fathers
3. That St. Peter's faith is the Rock, is taught by forty-four (44) church Fathers
4. That Christ is the Rock, is taught by sixteen Fathers (16)
5. That the rock is the whole body of the faithful, Archbp. Kendrick gives no figure.

Yet Jesus said truth comes not from man but from the Father. There is no strength in numbers.

 

[The Liturgist]

Yet Jesus said truth comes not from man but from the Father. There is no strength in numbers.

There is strength in apostolic succession among the early Church Fathers, because these people were the successors to the Apostles and served the Christian church during the Roman and Arian persecution, they developed the scriptural canon, they chose what books were in the New Testament, and they did all this before the start of any of the controversial practices in the Western Church that led to the Great Schism with the Eastern Orthodox and the Protestant Reformation.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Interesting. I had assumed position 1 and 2 were the Consensus Patrum, but clearly it is position 3, although I do wish you could link us to some data on which Father said what. Because I value the opinions of the Greek and Syrian fathers more than the Latin fathers, with the exceptions of Saints Ambrose, Isidore, Vincent of Lerins, and Pope Gregory Diologos, and I value the opinions of Saints Irenaeus, Athanasius, the Cappadocians, Epiphanius of Salamis, John Chrysostom, Ephrem, Cyril of Alexandria, Severus of Antioch, Theodore the Studite, John Damascene, Simeon the New and Gregory Palamas more than anyone else.

I suspect archbishop Kenrick used Migne's PL and PG. He died in 1863 and Migne's two works were fresh off the press not long before.

I'm not surprised that there is no lockstep consensus, as there is no lockstep consensus on most of Scripture. It brings me back to my point that there is a Sensus Plenior regarding the Rock, and some are seeing different parts of the fuller meaning and neglecting or even excluding the literal sense. Simon is the Rock, or he wouldn't have been renamed. But he was renamed due to his confession of who Jesus was, the confession being a foundational confession. That confession was shared by the apostolic college. And of course God is our ultimate Rock, with Peter at best being only the vicar apostolic for Jesus. And Jesus appointed him vicar apostolic. A point many moderns cannot accept because it threatens their brand of faith.