LDS What is the reward?

[Jane_Doe]

Luke 13: 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish....And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

Guess repentance and bearing fruit was important to Jesus!

Yes. I don't know why Phoebe is trying to convince us to ignore Christ's words.

 

[withwonderingawe]

Yes. I don't know why Phoebe is trying to convince us to ignore Christ's words.

I know, it's hard to understand.

 

[Rescued One]

Luke 13: 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish....And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

Guess repentance and bearing fruit was important to Jesus!

It's important to Christians.

 

[Jane_Doe]

It's important to Christians.

I agree. Why do you act like repentance is optional to salvation?

 

[Peter1000]

Titus taught the same principles (See

Mormon interepretation: They will not spend eternity in the presence of God unless they accept Joseph Smith's religion.[quote/]




Proverbs 30
5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.



Those love who truly love God aren't guilty of Proverb 30:6.




Paul didn't write John, Chapter 3. Paul never said, "Don't keep the commandments." God forbid!

After the Damascus Road experience, the grace of God had saved Paul. He wasn't opposed to the teachings of Jesus Christ at all. He taught us to glorify God just as Christ did.

2 Timothy 3
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Mormon interepretation: They will not spend eternity in the presence of God unless they accept Joseph Smith's religion.

Correction: They will not spend eternity in the presence of God unless they do what God has told them to do to be saved.

The entire word of the bible explains this saving process. But because there is not one chapter that explains the whole salvation process in a compact precise scripture, it has to be pasted together from many scriptures. That is the difficulty we face as Christians. This is the reason there are so many Christian churches, because of this biblical anomaly.

The doctrines of salvation that JS recieved from Jesus Christ encompasses the entire bible scriptures that have to do with salvation, not just the 'grace' scriptures written by Paul. Therefore, it is necessary to incorporate all scriptural references to the salvation process that exists in the entire bible.

If you do that, grace is important, repentance is important (being the very first words of Jesus when he started his ministry), works are important, baptism is important, receiving the HS is important, loving each other is important, keeping the commandments are important, enduring to the end is important.

If you are willing to pick and choose your scripture that follows your agenda, and therefore ignore all the other scriptures that were given for your edification, you will miss the mark and find yourself out of the place that you really want to be in. All the the scriptures in the bible dealing with salvation testify that I am right.

Would someone explain to me how I am wrong?[/QUOTE]

 

[Rescued One]

Titus taught the same principles (See

Correction: They will not spend eternity in the presence of God unless they do what God has told them to do to be saved.

Let's look at that:
John 6
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Matthew 16
15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

John 6
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 14
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 10
1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. 4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. 6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.

7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. 10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

John 3
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Ephesians 2
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We can't quicken ourselves and we can't earn salvation.

The entire word of the bible explains this saving process. But because there is not one chapter that explains the whole salvation process in a compact precise scripture, it has to be pasted together from many scriptures. That is the difficulty we face as Christians.
This is the reason there are so many Christian churches, because of this biblical anomaly.

It doesn't matter how many churches there are, or how many denominations among Mormonism. The sheep hear His voice; the others don't.

John 10
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. 25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

The doctrines of salvation that JS recieved from Jesus Christ encompasses the entire bible scriptures that have to do with salvation, not just the 'grace' scriptures written by Paul. Therefore, it is necessary to incorporate all scriptural references to the salvation process that exists in the entire bible.

25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

If you do that, grace is important, repentance is important (being the very first words of Jesus when he started his ministry), works are important, baptism is important, receiving the HS is important, loving each other is important, keeping the commandments are important, enduring to the end is important.

I've never heard one of the sheep claim that parts of the Bible are not important.

If you are willing to pick and choose your scripture that follows your agenda, and therefore ignore all the other scriptures that were given for your edification, you will miss the mark and find yourself out of the place that you really want to be in. All the the scriptures in the bible dealing with salvation testify that I am right.

The sheep follow the Shepherd. He is the way.

 

[fatboys]

Let's look at that:
John 6
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Matthew 16
15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

John 6
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 14
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 10
1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. 4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. 6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.

7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. 10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

John 3
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Ephesians 2
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We can't quicken ourselves and we can't earn salvation.




It doesn't matter how many churches there are, or how many denominations among Mormonism. The sheep hear His voice; the others don't.

John 10
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. 25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.




25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:




I've never heard one of the sheep claim that parts of the Bible are not important.



The sheep follow the Shepherd. He is the way.

Why do you throw a bunch of scriptures that has noth g to do with the topic.

 

[Rescued One]

Why do you throw a bunch of scriptures that has noth g to do with the topic.

It's quite possible that when a person's mind is full of Mormonism, they might not see the implication of those verses.
My last post was in response to Peter.

 

[JacksBratt]

Jesus and Paul do not see eye to eye.

Jesus preached that if you love me follow me and keep my commandments. Jesus did not mention the word 'grace' one time in his sermons. Jesus's sermons were about good works and being judged according to your works.

Paul's words are misconstrued by mainline Christians to speak only of 'grace', and it is by 'grace' that one is saved, not of works or of thy self, lest ye boast.

Jesus wanted you to do your good works so that men could see your faith and works,(let your light shine before men) and this would glorify Jesus's Father which is in heaven.

The way mainline Christianity portray the words of Paul, in many ways are in opposition to the words of Jesus Christ.

Can you show me quotes from Jesus, stating that it is by works we are saved?

This argument has be debated here before and Grace and Faith are always the method of salvation.

 

[JacksBratt]

Can you quote me the scripture that says, 'never do men change into angels'. Thank you.

No, I cannot.

However, this is not my responsibility. Never does the Bible or any of canon ever talk about a man becoming and angel. It is always "we were made in the image of God" when we die "we will be judged"

The responsibility is yours to prove that men ever become angels. The whole integrity of the book of Mormon depends on this. If you are going to base the validity of your book on an event that is never mentioned in scripture, then it's your issue to prove, not mine.

 

[JacksBratt]

For you to equate a visit from God and his Son Jesus Christ or even an angel of God to a visit with a blue jay is the kind of logic that is throwing you off the right path. Think about it.



If you have analyzed the words of Jesus and the words of Paul, you would find many contradictions. Therefore, in all fairness you should consider tossing out all 14 letters of Paul.

Mormons will not toss out Paul's words, because we understand his whole message.

You however, choose only to believe his 'grace' message, which confict with Jesus's words. Therefore, start tossing.

You are free to believe as you do. Like I said before, people will bend and twist scripture or take it out of context to insinuate that it says something different than people have agreed that it is saying for thousands of years, to support an unbiblical idea or theory.

My scenario about the blue jay has as much credibility as the "man become angel" coming back to give a message of half truth half apostate theology.

Don't forget, not only does the bible never talk of a man becoming an angel, but also never does a man come back to earth. This whole concept is against the "man is appointed once to die... then judgement". Never coming back to this dimension to give a new message.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Can you show me quotes from Jesus, stating that it is by works we are saved?

This argument has be debated here before and Grace and Faith are always the method of salvation.

LDS do not believe we are saved by works. In fact, after my years of study of dozens of different Christian faiths, I have yet to meet a Christian group that believes we can work are way to heaven ("works" salvation). 100% of Christian groups believe that salvation is an undeserved gift from God (including LDS).

What differs between groups is to the beliefs to what degree our consent is required. Here are some of the different view points I've encountered:

1) ZERO human consent or works is involved in salvation. Belief is not required for salvation, let alone repentance or baptism. Rather, God will force salvation on to whomever he pleases, without regard to who they are or what they believe or what they've done. A person cannot reject them. Conversely this also means everybody who goes to Hell goes there because God forced them there (by not forcing them into salvation, since the free will of man is denied). Some would even say that God didn't die for these people at all.

2) Human consent (such as belief) is required for salvation. Christ did die to save everyone and offers this free gift to everyone, and whom shall believe on His name shall be saved. Those that are damned are damned because they choose to reject this gift, not because God forced them to Hell. A disciple of Christ has a duty to follow His commandments- not because we're going to save ourselves, but because they are His commandments. We believe in our Lord- not just is word, but with our whole selves (including deed). Faith without works is dead.

It is the number 2 view LDS believe.

 

[Jane_Doe]

No, I cannot.

However, this is not my responsibility. Never does the Bible or any of canon ever talk about a man becoming and angel. It is always "we were made in the image of God" when we die "we will be judged"

The responsibility is yours to prove that men ever become angels. The whole integrity of the book of Mormon depends on this. I

We've been over this: the Bible doesn't claim that God has different species of creations, or that a messenger must be of a certain species. There is no conflict with the Bible here.

Also, neither LDS or mainstream Christians believe all Truth is limited to what is in the Bible.

This whole concept is against the "man is appointed once to die... then judgement". Never coming back to this dimension to give a new message.

LDS agree with this verse. However, we disagree with your interpretation that this happens the moment after death. The verse does not say this.

 

[JacksBratt]

Then you need to rip 52% of the new testament out of the bible, because Paul was a self-proclaimed apostle. It is from his own writings that we know his story and others have written about him, but their data is from his writings and his works since he self proclaimed that Jesus met him on the road to Damascus and gave him instructions.

Good luck with that.

Comparing accepted scripture that is canonized to the words of Joseph Smith is a huge stretch.


One is the accepted and acknowledged words of a man inspired by God Himself that have no contradiction with the other canonized scripture.

The other is words of one man based on the unscriptural basis of an man 1/ becoming an angel ( never before mentioned in scripture) 2/ coming back to bring a message to mankind. (contrary to the words of Abraham to the rich man in hell when he asked for Abraham to send Lazarus back to tell his family...."If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead")
3/ Contradicting biblical concepts. ( even though people will try to twist and bend it to mesh with scripture)
4/ If there is nothing new or different, why bother sending this man/angel to spread a message?

There may be good content in this book of Mormon. However, it is not canonized scripture. Many books, written by men, contain things we can learn from, but, these things may not be biblical or Godly. It is dangerous to say that something is God's word when it may be just close enough to deceive you.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Comparing accepted scripture that is canonized to the words of Joseph Smith is a huge stretch.


One is the accepted and acknowledged words of a man inspired by God Himself that have no contradiction with the other canonized scripture.

The other is words of one man based on the unscriptural basis of an man 1/ becoming an angel ( never before mentioned in scripture) 2/ coming back to bring a message to mankind. (contrary to the words of Abraham to the rich man in hell when he asked for Abraham to send Lazarus back to tell his family...."If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead")
3/ Contradicting biblical concepts. ( even though people will try to twist and bend it to mesh with scripture)
4/ If there is nothing new or different, why bother sending this man/angel to spread a message?

There may be good content in this book of Mormon. However, it is not canonized scripture. Many books, written by men, contain things we can learn from, but, these things may not be biblical or Godly. It is dangerous to say that something is God's word when it may be just close enough to deceive you.

I feel like we are going in circles here. There are do contradictions with the Bible, God can send whatever messenger He chooses, and God does not stop speaking to His people.

Rather than repeat the same old same old, I'm going to focus on this:

There may be good content in this book of Mormon. However, it is not canonized scripture.

Which cannon do you accept? Various mainstream Christians have between 66-82 books in their Bible.
Why do you accept that cannon and not the others?

 

[Rescued One]

Comparing accepted scripture that is canonized to the words of Joseph Smith is a huge stretch.

One is the accepted and acknowledged words of a man inspired by God Himself that have no contradiction with the other canonized scripture.

The other is words of one man based on the unscriptural basis of an man 1/ becoming an angel ( never before mentioned in scripture) 2/ coming back to bring a message to mankind. (contrary to the words of Abraham to the rich man in hell when he asked for Abraham to send Lazarus back to tell his family...."If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead")
3/ Contradicting biblical concepts. ( even though people will try to twist and bend it to mesh with scripture)
4/ If there is nothing new or different, why bother sending this man/angel to spread a message?

There may be good content in this book of Mormon. However, it is not canonized scripture. Many books, written by men, contain things we can learn from, but, these things may not be biblical or Godly. It is dangerous to say that something is God's word when it may be just close enough to deceive you.

Excellent points!

Salvation in Mormonism is based on how obedient a person is; IOW it is earned. They came up with different kingdoms of glory to accompany varying degrees of obedience.

Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual, 1981, Enrichment G, p. 395
https://si.lds.org/bc/seminary/cont...doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual_eng.pdf

John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

LDS Articles of Faith
3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

"In these remarks I shall set forth some views of the church of Jesus Christ on this subject.

"Saved as here used means resurrected and returned as a sanctified, celestialized, immortal soul to the presence and society of God, there to pursue an endless course of eternal progress.

"To get a glimpse of what this means requires a knowledge of the form and nature of God and of man and their relationship to each other."
Marion G. Romney, How Men Are Saved, General Conference, October 1974


It is the celestial glory which we seek. It is in the presence of God we desire to dwell. It is a forever family in which we want membership. Such blessings are earned through a lifetime of striving, seeking, repenting, and finally succeeding.
Thomas S. Monson, The Race of Life, General Conference, April 2012

“The gospel teaches us that relief from torment and guilt can be earned through repentance.”
Boyd K. Packer, The Savior’s Selfless and Sacred Sacrifice, Ensign, April 2015
From a devotional address, “Truths Most Worth Knowing,” given at Brigham Young University on Nov. 6, 2011. For the full address, visit speeches.byu.edu.

Have you noticed how often other members of CF tell us that Mormons can't earn eternal life? Truthfully, they can't have it without earning it.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Salvation in Mormonism is based on how obedient a person is; IOW it is earned.

Phoebe, this wasn't true the last time you copy-pasted this post, nor the ninety times before then. Why do you continue to post it when it's not true?

John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

LDS thoroughly believe this.

LDS Articles of Faith
3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

(Notice how she bother to include the next sentence about what the ordinances are)

4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remissionof sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Yes, LDS believe a person believes a person must believe in Jesus Christ- John 3:16. Phoebe does not believes this. I explained this is post 132.

 

[Rescued One]

 

[Rescued One]

JacksBratt, that illustration that isn't showing is worth looking at. The link is there.
The manual states:
(G-5) Certainty of the Promises and Consequences of Law The Doctrine and Covenants teaches that all blessings are predicated upon laws and that if we desire a particular blessing, we must abide by the law that guarantees the blessing. If we do not conform to the bounds and conditions of a law, we are not justified in receiving the blessings associated with it. This theme is repeated again and again in the Doctrine and Covenants (see D&C 82:10; 88:38–39; 130:20–21; 132:5).
Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual, 1981, Enrichment G, p. 394

 

[Jane_Doe]

JacksBratt, that illustration that isn't showing is worth looking at. The link is there.
The manual states:
(G-5) Certainty of the Promises and Consequences of Law The Doctrine and Covenants teaches that all blessings are predicated upon laws and that if we desire a particular blessing, we must abide by the law that guarantees the blessing. If we do not conform to the bounds and conditions of a law, we are not justified in receiving the blessings associated with it. This theme is repeated again and again in the Doctrine and Covenants (see D&C 82:10; 88:38–39; 130:20–21; 132:5).

Oh how horrible that LDS believe John 3:16!!!! *rolls eyes*