LDS What is the reward?

[withwonderingawe]

Jane Doe, I understand you believe in the Book of Mormon. You are free to do so and I am free to dismiss it.

Anytime, in a discusson of God, Jesus, the events pertaining to messages from God or Christ...... to me, an angel is a certain type of being. One created, by God, in different ranks and positions with different responsibilities, abilities, powers and tasks. An angel is never a term applied to just anything or anyone who delivers a message. It most certainly is not the soul, spirit, conciousness or personality of somene that was once a man, human, on this earth who died and came back to tell us some important message...

Sorry, but that is how I believe and for that reason, among others, I dismiss the Book of Mormon, before it is out of the gate.

As for the explanations on the contradictions I gave, In every cult or sect that is not totally biblical, there will be twists and changes and exceptions that the leaders fabricate in order to justify their theology. I am not buying any of it.

I believe that the Holy Bible from Genesis to the Revelations, is the only book that I need and I will stand firmly on it as the Holy, word of God and our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Thanks for your time in this debate. I hope that I have not offended you or your right to freedom of religion.

1, In other words you can't find any contradictions? Is that what you are saying?


2, What about Rev 22
8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

It's a clear description of a messenger being called an angel and them him telling John nope I'm one of the prophets. How does that fit your beliefs?

I could say that Moroni was just as this man, not one of your angel beings but sent to show Joseph where he buried the plates. Joseph merely called him angel to express the concept of messenger.

I believe in Cherubims that they have wings and fly through the heavens as the Bible describes. How do you know you haven't confused or merged the two into one kind of being?

In Rev 1&2 it speaks of the angels of the seven churches which is a clear reference to the Bishops who were placed over those churches, living men. In 1 Tim 3 there is a another similar reference and here it is referring to the Apostles;

"God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

1John 1
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us.

The word angel is used in many different ways.

 

[Jane_Doe]

to me, an angel is a certain type of being. One created, by God, in different ranks and positions with different responsibilities, abilities, powers and tasks. An angel is never a term applied to just anything or anyone who delivers a message. It most certainly is not the soul, spirit, conciousness or personality of somene that was once a man, human, on this earth who died and came back to tell us some important message...

I respect your beliefs here. But do realize the things you state in this paragraph are not in the Bible. You may accurately say "my beliefs and the Book of Mormon contradict", but it is false to say "the Bible and Book of Mormon contradict".

As for the explanations on the contradictions I gave, In every cult or sect that is not totally biblical, there will be twists and changes and exceptions that the leaders fabricate in order to justify their theology. I am not buying any of it.

Again, it's not a contradiction to the Bible, but a contradiction to your extra-Biblical beliefs.

Thanks for your time in this debate. I hope that I have not offended you or your right to freedom of religion.

I am not offended at all, and enjoyed this conversation. I hope you enjoyed it as well.

 

[Rescued One]

Elder Bruce R. McConkie said, “The titles church of the devil and great and abominable church are used to identify all churches or organizations of whatever name or nature—whether political, philosophical, educational, economic, social, fraternal, civic, or religious—which are designed to take men on a course that leads away from God and his laws and thus from salvation in the kingdom of God” (Mormon Doctrine, 2nd ed. [1966], 137–38).

When the gospel was in the hands of the 12 apostles it was pure, Jesus had retaught that precious knowledge which was lost but as they died the Gentiles were influenced by apostate Jews and Hellenism. Philo was a Jew who incorporated Greek thought into the already apostate religion. The Christians added a lot of that philosophy into Christianity thinking they were following the right path after all the Jews worshiped this one God.

“"Philosophy has been given to the Greeks as their own kind of Covenant, their foundation for the philosophy of Christ ... the philosophy of the Greeks ... contains the basic elements of that genuine and perfect knowledge which is higher than human ... even upon those spiritual objects." ( Clement of Alexandria, Miscellanies 6. 8)

The knowledge of the covenants made and that Jesus imparted to his Apostles in that upper room was lost.

None of that information applies or refutes the fact that you were saying the Jews removed part of God's word. When the scriptures were given to the apostles, 1 Nephi 13 states that those scriptures "contained the fullness of the gospel of the Lord," and the great and abominable church had not yet been formed.

The abominable church is actually described in detail in 1 Nephi 13:
4 And it came to pass that I saw among the nations of the Gentiles the formation of a great church.

(Said church is not in Israel.)

5 And the angel said unto me: Behold the formation of a church which is most abominable above all other churches, which slayeth the saints of God, yea, and tortureth them and bindeth them down, and yoketh them with a yoke of iron, and bringeth them down into captivity.

6 And it came to pass that I beheld this great and abominable church; and I saw the devil that he was the founder of it.

7 And I also saw gold, and silver, and silks, and scarlets, and fine-twined linen, and all manner of precious clothing; and I saw many harlots.

And, finally, blaming the Jews instead of the "great and abominable church" for the removal of parts of God's word contradicts 1 Nephi 13.
24 And the angel of the Lord said unto me: Thou hast beheld that the book[Bible] proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew; and when it proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew it contained the fulness of the gospel of the Lord, of whom the twelve apostles bear record; and they bear record according to the truth which is in the Lamb of God.

26 And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.

When the gospel was in the hands of the 12 apostles it was pure, Jesus had retaught that precious knowledge which was lost but as they died the Gentiles were influenced by apostate Jews and Hellenism. Philo was a Jew who incorporated Greek thought into the already apostate religion. The Christians added a lot of that philosophy into Christianity thinking they were following the right path after all the Jews worshiped this one God.

Verse 26 says the great and abominable church took away covenants. The great and abominable church is a church and not a Messianic one.

As for McConkie, the 1958 edition of Mormon Doctrine pointed out that The Great Abominable Church of the Devil is the Roman Catholic Church. That had been the understanding of 1 Nephi 13.

"Secondly, it is objected that if the Church of Christ has not continued, then the gate of hell must have prevailed against her; and they refer us to that cheering passage in Matthew 16:18 which reads thus:—'And I say also unto thee, that thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall riot prevail against it.' They argue, that if the Church has ceased to exist, the gates of hell have prevailed over her and the promise of Jesus must be falsified. But we would inform the Catholics, that the Church of Christ has not ceased to exist, neither has Peter ceased his existence, but both the Church and Peter are in heaven, far out of the reach of the gates of hell, and far out of the reach of the abominable soul-destroying impositions of popery. The gates of hell have prevailed and will continue to prevail over the Catholic mother of harlots, and over all her Protestant daughters; but as for the apostolical Church of Christ, she rests secure in the mansion of eternal happiness, where she will remain until the apostate Catholic church, with all her popes and bishops, together with all her harlot daughters shall be hurled down to hell; then it shall be said, 'Rejoice over her thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her;'" . . . (A Series of 6 Pamphlets, Liverpool, England, 1850-51, No. 1, by Orson Pratt, Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon, pp. 39-44)

I am aware that the Mormon church has changed its position on this as well as making several other changes. If they spoke the truth from the beginning, they wouldn't be making so many changes.

 

[Peter1000]

Mormons, what is your interpretation of Romans 6:2?

My personal interpretation of this verse is that Paul and others, since he uses the word 'we', are dead to sin. Which I would interpret to mean, they are living without sinning.

This is interesting because in other passages that Paul wrote, he admonishes himself for his evil ways, see
Romans 7:19. This is after he wrote Romans 6:2, so is he really dead to sin?

So the question to you is: do you think are you dead to sin, are you living a sinless life?

 

[Rescued One]

My personal interpretation of this verse is that Paul and others, since he uses the word 'we', are dead to sin. Which I would interpret to mean, they are living without sinning.

This is interesting because in other passages that Paul wrote, he admonishes himself for his evil ways, see
Romans 7:19. This is after he wrote Romans 6:2, so is he really dead to sin?

So the question to you is: do you think are you dead to sin, are you living a sinless life?

I believe that we are no longer under the absolute power of sin, we've been set free from Satan's control. We are being sanctified. We start to recognize sins that we had though were insignificant.

"Sanctification is the continuing work of God in the life of a believer. It is progressive work in which we become more and more free from sin and like Christ. In short, our actual lives become increasingly conformed with our legal status before God."
Definition of SANCTIFICATION

1 John 3
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him;* for we shall see him as he is.

* without sin

I think Paul was saying that we still struggle with sin.

 

[Peter1000]

And where do the Mormons get this theology. Is it from another great revelation that has come to mankind after thousands of years of the inspired, God breathed scriptures that have been followed as the one and only true word of God for over 2000 years? Is this "new" book of theology from man or from God. Did God mention that He would send more scripture? Or, is this just some man pretending to be some chosen messenger for some things God forgot to tell us. Or that God has changed His mind?

I think not. I don't adhere to anything that is from some new revelation to some self proclaimed chosen man or woman.

Then you need to rip 52% of the new testament out of the bible, because Paul was a self-proclaimed apostle. It is from his own writings that we know his story and others have written about him, but their data is from his writings and his works since he self proclaimed that Jesus met him on the road to Damascus and gave him instructions.

Good luck with that.

 

[Rescued One]

If we sit around worrying about the reward then God is going to wonder if we are only doing good things to get the reward instead of out of love for him and our fellowman. He'll reward you according to what is really in your heart.

What is the reward and who deserves it?

 

[Peter1000]

Of course they did. They objected to the point of killing Jesus due to blasphemy, although, they really couldn't prove it. As, it didn't happen.

Everything that Paul and the Apostles said and was written, meshed perfectly with the words of Jesus and the whole NT meshes with the OT.

What Christ and the Apostles were teaching went against the errors and arrogance of the high priests and leaders.

What Joseph Smith, Bill Sadler and others say is against what Christ said....

I'll stick to what Christ said.

As for the rest, saying Ezra was talking about Joseph Smith is a myth and a pipe dream. Like I said, the back story ends that concept.

Everything that Paul and the Apostles said and was written, meshed perfectly with the words of Jesus and the whole NT meshes with the OT.

Jesus and Paul do not see eye to eye.

Jesus preached that if you love me follow me and keep my commandments. Jesus did not mention the word 'grace' one time in his sermons. Jesus's sermons were about good works and being judged according to your works.

Paul's words are misconstrued by mainline Christians to speak only of 'grace', and it is by 'grace' that one is saved, not of works or of thy self, lest ye boast.

Jesus wanted you to do your good works so that men could see your faith and works,(let your light shine before men) and this would glorify Jesus's Father which is in heaven.

The way mainline Christianity portray the words of Paul, in many ways are in opposition to the words of Jesus Christ.

 

[Peter1000]

See the problem there? Men are men, created to be men in God's image. Angels come in many classes, ranks and forms.... never do men change into angels.

Can you quote me the scripture that says, 'never do men change into angels'. Thank you.[/QUOTE]

 

[Rescued One]

Jesus and Paul do not see eye to eye.

Jesus preached that if you love me follow me and keep my commandments. Jesus did not mention the word 'grace' one time in his sermons. Jesus's sermons were about good works and being judged according to your works.

Paul didn't write John, Chapter 3. Paul never said, "Don't keep the commandments." God forbid!

You say that Jesus didn't mention grace. Mormons do. Mormons give it another definition, but still use the word.

"The grace of God is our great and everlasting hope."
Dieter F. Uchtdorf, The Gift of Grace, General Conference, April 2015

When we understand grace, we can, as it says in the Doctrine and Covenants, “continue in patience until [we] are perfected” (D&C 67:13).
Brad Wilcox, His Grace is Sufficient, from a devotional address given at Brigham Young University on July 12, 2011

Paul's words are misconstrued by mainline Christians to speak only of 'grace', and it is by 'grace' that one is saved, not of works or of thy self, lest ye boast.

There's definitely a difference in our definition and the Mormon definition of the word. Look at the verses in our Bibles and your Book of Mormon.

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

2 Nephi 25
23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

Of course, words are added to change the meaning of Ephesians 2:8 and 9.

Jesus wanted you to do your good works so that men could see your faith and works,(let your light shine before men) and this would glorify Jesus's Father which is in heaven.

Mainstream churches have never taught people to avoid or abandon keeping Christ's commandments.

The way mainline Christianity portray the words of Paul, in many ways are in opposition to the words of Jesus Christ.

That isn't true. The following organizations are evidence:
1. Samaritan’s Purse: Helping in Jesus’ Name
2. Compassion International
3. Lutheran World Relief: Sustainable Development, Lasting Promise
4. Operation Blessing International: Breaking the Cycle of Suffering
5. Advancing Native Missions: Learn, Connect, Engage
6. Children’s Hunger Fund: Gospel-Centered Mercy Ministry
7. The Salvation Army: Doing the Most Good
8. Catholic Relief Services: Faith, Action, Results
9. Lifeline Christian Mission: Restoring Hope Among the Nations
10. Food For The Poor: Saving Lives, Transforming Communities, Renewing Hope
The Top 10 Most Amazing Christian Charities - Theology Degrees

And that is just a drop in the bucket. Many Christians do random acts of kindness or anonymous favors.

Many churches have angel trees in their foyers during the Christmas season.

 

[Peter1000]

Ok, maybe this will help.

I was outside, filling my bird feeders, and this scenario came to mind.

Let's say a blue jay came and sat on my shoulder and spoke. It said, tell the people that I am an angel of God and have chosen you to pass on a message. That message is that creation was six days just like the ones you have today. Noah preached for 100 years for the people to turn from evil. Even Abel came back and stood beside him for support. Nobody listened.

1/ How is this any more or less valid than Joseph Smith's story or the story of the Urantia Book and William Sadler?

2/ Note how there is some Biblicaly parallel information combined with new information not even mentioned in the Bible.

3/ I know that there are other scriptures and writings that are not canonized. I would love to have seen the Book of Enoch or Jasher or the book of Jubilee hold this type of validation, but they don't.

I believe that they hold a wealth of information and back up the Bible in numerous cases. They are mentioned in the Bible as well.

In the end. If there are any writings that contradict the recognized books of our canonized scripture, I toss out that information as contrary to the word of God.

Words put to paper, outside the canon and in times past the historical time of Christ, that add to, contradict or take away from the Holy Bible... are not valid in my opinion as acceptable words of God and should be taken as the words of mere men. They should then be held to the fire of the word of God and if any words are against the biblical account but are presented as words of God... I will hold them as apostate doctrine.

For you to equate a visit from God and his Son Jesus Christ or even an angel of God to a visit with a blue jay is the kind of logic that is throwing you off the right path. Think about it.

In the end. If there are any writings that contradict the recognized books of our canonized scripture, I toss out that information as contrary to the word of God.

If you have analyzed the words of Jesus and the words of Paul, you would find many contradictions. Therefore, in all fairness you should consider tossing out all 14 letters of Paul.

Mormons will not toss out Paul's words, because we understand his whole message.

You however, choose only to believe his 'grace' message, which confict with Jesus's words. Therefore, start tossing.

 

[Peter1000]

Paul didn't write John, Chapter 3. Paul never said, "Don't keep the commandments." God forbid!

You say that Jesus didn't mention grace. Mormons do. Mormons give it another definition, but still use the word.

"The grace of God is our great and everlasting hope."
Dieter F. Uchtdorf, The Gift of Grace, General Conference, April 2015

When we understand grace, we can, as it says in the Doctrine and Covenants, “continue in patience until [we] are perfected” (D&C 67:13).
Brad Wilcox, His Grace is Sufficient, from a devotional address given at Brigham Young University on July 12, 2011



There's definitely a difference in our definition and the Mormon definition of the word. Look at the verses in our Bibles and your Book of Mormon.

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

2 Nephi 25
23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

Of course, words are added to change the meaning of Ephesians 2:8 and 9.



Mainstream churches have never taught people to avoid or abandon keeping Christ's commandments.



That isn't true. The following organizations are evidence:
1. Samaritan’s Purse: Helping in Jesus’ Name
2. Compassion International
3. Lutheran World Relief: Sustainable Development, Lasting Promise
4. Operation Blessing International: Breaking the Cycle of Suffering
5. Advancing Native Missions: Learn, Connect, Engage
6. Children’s Hunger Fund: Gospel-Centered Mercy Ministry
7. The Salvation Army: Doing the Most Good
8. Catholic Relief Services: Faith, Action, Results
9. Lifeline Christian Mission: Restoring Hope Among the Nations
10. Food For The Poor: Saving Lives, Transforming Communities, Renewing Hope
The Top 10 Most Amazing Christian Charities - Theology Degrees

And that is just a drop in the bucket. Many Christians do random acts of kindness or anonymous favors.

Many churches have angel trees in their foyers during the Christmas season.

These are all wonderful, faithfilled lovers of Jesus Christ and I love them all, they do wonderful works in the name of Jesus Christ and they will be blessed for their contribution to the K of H here on earth.

Mormons believe that it is by grace, but after all that we can do, that we are saved. Now that is the balance that is needed. We do all that we can because of the faith and love we have for the Savior, and then he grants the gift of grace to us and we enter the K of H.

I believe we reconcile Jesus and Paul.

 

[withwonderingawe]

Salvation is not of works.

You're taking that line out of context but in a sense you are right. Salvation comes through repentance, unless you think repentance is a work?

 

[Jane_Doe]

You're taking that line out of context but in a sense you are right. Salvation comes through repentance, unless you think repentance is a work?

Or faith for that matter. Yes, faith is a gift from God, but does it come before or after salvation. And then may a person choose to reject it?

I would love to here Phoebe's answers to those questions.

 

[Rescued One]

These are all wonderful, faithfilled lovers of Jesus Christ and I love them all, they do wonderful works in the name of Jesus Christ and they will be blessed for their contribution to the K of H here on earth.

Mormon interepretation: They will not spend eternity in the presence of God unless they accept Joseph Smith's religion.

Mormons believe that it is by grace, but after all that we can do, that we are saved. Now that is the balance that is needed.

Proverbs 30
5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

We do all that we can because of the faith and love we have for the Savior, and then he grants the gift of grace to us and we enter the K of H.

Those love who truly love God aren't guilty of Proverb 30:6.

I believe we reconcile Jesus and Paul.

Paul didn't write John, Chapter 3. Paul never said, "Don't keep the commandments." God forbid!

After the Damascus Road experience, the grace of God had saved Paul. He wasn't opposed to the teachings of Jesus Christ at all. He taught us to glorify God just as Christ did.

2 Timothy 3
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

 

[Rescued One]

You're taking that line out of context but in a sense you are right. Salvation comes through repentance, unless you think repentance is a work?

We repent because God makes us new creatures.

2 Corinthians 5
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Romans 8
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

We can't put the Spirit of God in us.

Titus 3
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

 

[Rescued One]

You're taking that line out of context but in a sense you are right. Salvation comes through repentance, unless you think repentance is a work?

Repentance comes because we are regenerated.

 

[Rescued One]

You however, choose only to believe his 'grace' message, which confict with Jesus's words. Therefore, start tossing.

No, Paul's message in Ephesians, Chapter Two, is the word of God. Mormonism contradicts the Bible.

 

[withwonderingawe]

Or faith for that matter. Yes, faith is a gift from God, but does it come before or after salvation. And then may a person choose to reject it?

I would love to here Phoebe's answers to those questions.

Luke 13: 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish....And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

Guess repentance and bearing fruit was important to Jesus!

 

[withwonderingawe]

Repentance comes because we are regenerated.

we are not regenerated until we are willing to repent and go into the waters of baptism.

col 2
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Gal 3:
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

and Titus 3
he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;