LDS Can you become a "child of Christ" after death?

[Rescued One]

This is what the Book of Mormon says:

Mosiah 2
32 But, O my people, beware lest there shall arise contentions among you, and ye list to obey the evil spirit, which was spoken of by my father Mosiah.

33 For behold, there is a wo pronounced upon him who listeth to obey that spirit; for if he listeth to obey him, and remaineth and dieth in his sins, the same drinketh damnation to his own soul; for he receiveth for his wages an everlasting punishment, having transgressed the law of God contrary to his own knowledge...

38 Therefore if that man repenteth not, and remaineth and dieth an enemy to God, the demands of divine justice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively sense of his own guilt, which doth cause him to shrink from the presence of the Lord, and doth fill his breast with guilt, and pain, and anguish, which is like an unquenchable fire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever.

39 And now I say unto you, that mercy hath no claim on that man; therefore his final doom is to endure a never-ending torment.


Alma 34
32 For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.

33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.

35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.

Who disagrees or contradicts this?

 

[nChrist]

The answer is "no".

Hebrews 9:27 KJV And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

 

[Rescued One]

The answer is "no".

Hebrews 9:27 KJV And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

I agree. Mormons contradict themselves.

Doctrine and Covenants 76
106 These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work;

107 When he shall deliver up the kingdom, and present it unto the Father, spotless, saying: I have overcome and have trodden the wine-press alone, even the wine-press of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God.

108 Then shall he be crowned with the crown of his glory, to sit on the throne of his power to reign forever and ever.

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;

111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared;

112 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.

88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of salvation. (Salvation? Separated from God for eternity?)

89 And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding;

90 And no man knows it except him to whom God has revealed it.

91 And thus we saw the glory of the terrestrial which excels in all things the glory of the telestial, even in glory, and in power, and in might, and in dominion.

92 And thus we saw the glory of the celestial, which excels in all things—where God, even the Father, reigns upon his throne forever and ever;

93 Before whose throne all things bow in humble reverence, and give him glory forever and ever.

94 They who dwell in his presence are the church of the Firstborn; and they see as they are seen, and know as
they are known, having received of his fulness and of his grace;

95 And he makes them equal in power, and in might, and in dominion.

96 And the glory of the celestial is one, even as the glory of the sun is one.

97 And the glory of the terrestrial is one, even as the glory of the moon is one.

98 And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world;

99 For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas.

 

[fatboys]

I agree. Mormons contradict themselves.

Doctrine and Covenants 76
106 These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work;

107 When he shall deliver up the kingdom, and present it unto the Father, spotless, saying: I have overcome and have trodden the wine-press alone, even the wine-press of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God.

108 Then shall he be crowned with the crown of his glory, to sit on the throne of his power to reign forever and ever.

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;

111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared;

112 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.

88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of salvation. (Salvation? Separated from God for eternity?)

89 And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding;

90 And no man knows it except him to whom God has revealed it.

91 And thus we saw the glory of the terrestrial which excels in all things the glory of the telestial, even in glory, and in power, and in might, and in dominion.

92 And thus we saw the glory of the celestial, which excels in all things—where God, even the Father, reigns upon his throne forever and ever;

93 Before whose throne all things bow in humble reverence, and give him glory forever and ever.

94 They who dwell in his presence are the church of the Firstborn; and they see as they are seen, and know as
they are known, having received of his fulness and of his grace;

95 And he makes them equal in power, and in might, and in dominion.

96 And the glory of the celestial is one, even as the glory of the sun is one.

97 And the glory of the terrestrial is one, even as the glory of the moon is one.

98 And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world;

99 For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas.

It is amazing that you can look at this being a ex Mormon and get it so wrong. A person who fights against god is committing his soul to damnation. They have to have knowledge of he gospel. If a person understands the restored gospel and rejects it will be damned. Thank goodness that leaves you out of it and can be taught in the next life and accept it there because you sure don't know enough of it in this life to damage your soul by being a knowledgeable enemy.

 

[withwonderingawe]

There is a difference between those who have heard the gospel in this life and the those who have not.

If you have had the opportunity to hear the gospel “repenteth not, and remaineth and dieth an enemy to God”. He must pay for his own sins until the last farthing is paid.

If a person has not been taught the gospel but to do evil by his parents his “sins be heaped upon” their heads. Jac 3 they will be forgiven and given the opportunity to hear the gospel and become children of Christ.

And then

Rom 2
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;

There are some who follow Jesus without even know it, they feed the poor and forgive others. God loves his children and will deal justly with them.

Also there is a difference between being a child and being a full grown son of God who is ready to inherit all that God has.

We are all spirit children of the Father but are lost to him. As we hear and accept the gospel we become children of Christ and then as we endure to the end we become Sons of God joint heirs with Christ.

 

[Rescued One]

There is a difference between those who have heard the gospel in this life and the those who have not.

God isn't obligated to save every sinner.

If you have had the opportunity to hear the gospel “repenteth not, and remaineth and dieth an enemy to God”. He must pay for his own sins until the last farthing is paid.

We can't earn salvation by paying a debt that the Savior already paid!

1 Corinthians 6
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

If a person has not been taught the gospel but to do evil by his parents his “sins be heaped upon” their heads. Jac 3 they will be forgiven and given the opportunity to hear the gospel and become children of Christ.

And who taught the parents to sin?

Romans 5
12 Wherefore, as by one man[Adam] sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

And then

Rom 2
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;

There are some who follow Jesus without even know it, they feed the poor and forgive others. God loves his children and will deal justly with them.

The Jews were thinking themselves more righteous than the Gentile converts because they obeyed the letter of the law and had been circumcised. In Romans 1, we read about the Judaizers who wanted to combine the law with the gospel and impose it on the Gentiles.

Also there is a difference between being a child and being a full grown son of God who is ready to inherit all that God has.

We are all spirit children of the Father but are lost to him.

As we hear and accept the gospel we become children of Christ and then as we endure to the end we become Sons of God joint heirs with Christ.

Mormonism teaches that the Gospel is a set of laws and "legitimate" ordinances found only in the Mormon church. In order to learn those laws and ordinances, a person has to join the Mormon church. How is that any different than expecting all converts to be circumcised?

D&C 1
30 And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually—

Book of Mormon, Mosiah 4
8 And this is the means whereby salvation cometh. And there is none other salvation save this which hath been spoken of; neither are there any conditions whereby man can be saved except the conditions which I have told you.

The Articles of Faith
3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

The fulness of the gospel has been preached in all ages when God's children have been prepared to receive it. In the latter days, or the dispensation of the fulness of times, the gospel has been restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith.
Gospel | Principles and Ordinances of the Gospel

If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation. There is no salvation outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1979, p. 670

"This Church is the ensign on the mountain spoken of by the Old Testament prophets. It is the way, the truth, and the life."
Marion G. Romney, Conference Report, April, 1961, p. 119

Contrary to the above, we become children of God through faith in Christ; there is no other way. We become God's children the second we have faith in Christ's blood (the atonement for our sins). We endure to the end after He makes us His own. Remember, we have been sealed with the holy Spirit.

Ephesians 1
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

The church is the body of followers; it has been purchased by Christ. The church didn't save us.

Matthew 1
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Acts 4
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

John 14
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

[Jane_Doe]

God isn't obligated to save every sinner.

Really? Where in the Bible can I read about this? Why a loving God would create people and forced to them to Hell? In what verses does it talk about that?

 

[Rescued One]

John 3
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Romans 9
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

 

[Jane_Doe]

John 3
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Romans 9
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Which one of these verses would you say tells why a loving God creates people to force them to Hell?

 

[withwonderingawe]

Ii

God isn't obligated to save every sinner.

If u have to pay for your own sins then you were not saved.

We can't earn salvation by paying a debt that the Savior already paid!

1 Corinthians 6
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.



And who taught the parents to sin?

Romans 5
12 Wherefore, as by one man[Adam] sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:




The Jews were thinking themselves more righteous than the Gentile converts because they obeyed the letter of the law and had been circumcised. In Romans 1, we read about the Judaizers who wanted to combine the law with the gospel and impose it on the Gentiles.



Mormonism teaches that the Gospel is a set of laws and "legitimate" ordinances found only in the Mormon church. In order to learn those laws and ordinances, a person has to join the Mormon church. How is that any different than expecting all converts to be circumcised?

D&C 1
30 And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually—

Book of Mormon, Mosiah 4
8 And this is the means whereby salvation cometh. And there is none other salvation save this which hath been spoken of; neither are there any conditions whereby man can be saved except the conditions which I have told you.

The Articles of Faith
3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

The fulness of the gospel has been preached in all ages when God's children have been prepared to receive it. In the latter days, or the dispensation of the fulness of times, the gospel has been restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith.
Gospel | Principles and Ordinances of the Gospel

If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation. There is no salvation outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1979, p. 670

"This Church is the ensign on the mountain spoken of by the Old Testament prophets. It is the way, the truth, and the life."
Marion G. Romney, Conference Report, April, 1961, p. 119

Contrary to the above, we become children of God through faith in Christ; there is no other way. We become God's children the second we have faith in Christ's blood (the atonement for our sins). We endure to the end after He makes us His own. Remember, we have been sealed with the holy Spirit.

Ephesians 1
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

The church is the body of followers; it has been purchased by Christ. The church didn't save us.

Matthew 1
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Acts 4
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

John 14
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

[Rescued One]

No one earn his salvation by works or by punishment. Only Jesus was righteous enough to pay our debt.

There had to be an atonement without spot or blemish.

 

[Rescued One]

God isn't obligated to save every sinner.



We can't earn salvation by paying a debt that the Savior already paid!

1 Corinthians 6
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.



And who taught the parents to sin?

Romans 5
12 Wherefore, as by one man[Adam] sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:




The Jews were thinking themselves more righteous than the Gentile converts because they obeyed the letter of the law and had been circumcised. In Romans 1, we read about the Judaizers who wanted to combine the law with the gospel and impose it on the Gentiles.



Mormonism teaches that the Gospel is a set of laws and "legitimate" ordinances found only in the Mormon church. In order to learn those laws and ordinances, a person has to join the Mormon church. How is that any different than expecting all converts to be circumcised?

D&C 1
30 And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually—

Book of Mormon, Mosiah 4
8 And this is the means whereby salvation cometh. And there is none other salvation save this which hath been spoken of; neither are there any conditions whereby man can be saved except the conditions which I have told you.

The Articles of Faith
3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

The fulness of the gospel has been preached in all ages when God's children have been prepared to receive it. In the latter days, or the dispensation of the fulness of times, the gospel has been restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith.
Gospel | Principles and Ordinances of the Gospel

If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation. There is no salvation outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1979, p. 670

"This Church is the ensign on the mountain spoken of by the Old Testament prophets. It is the way, the truth, and the life."
Marion G. Romney, Conference Report, April, 1961, p. 119

Contrary to the above, we become children of God through faith in Christ; there is no other way. We become God's children the second we have faith in Christ's blood (the atonement for our sins). We endure to the end after He makes us His own. Remember, we have been sealed with the holy Spirit.

Ephesians 1
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

The church is the body of followers; it has been purchased by Christ. The church didn't save us.

Matthew 1
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Acts 4
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

John 14
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

withwonderingawe then said:

If u have to pay for your own sins then you were not saved.

But the sinner can never be saved by his own attempt at payment.

 

[Jane_Doe]

withwonderingawe then said:

But the sinner can never be saved by his own attempt at payment.

So WWA said you can't pay for your own sins, and then Phoebe said the exact same thing. And the big disagreement here is????

 

[withwonderingawe]

withwonderingawe then said:

But the sinner can never be saved by his own attempt at payment.

You are looking at this in the context of a sinner must be punished forever.
If that were true then why isn’t Jesus still up on the cross paying for our sins?


We believe the punishment is ‘affixed’ for a certain about of time and not forever. To be “saved” means not to have to endure the punishment.

As I repent of new sins I will be saved from those too, meaning I won’t have to suffer the punishment.

Those who do not bow their knee to Christ will not be saved they will have to pay for their own sins by enduring the affixed or attached punishment. Once that is done they have will be rewarded for the good they have done by receiving the “affixed” reward. However they will be out of the presence of both God the Father and God the Son, never to enter their presence again and that indeed would be sorrowful.

 

[Rescued One]

You are looking at this in the context of a sinner must be punished forever.
If that were true then why isn’t Jesus still up on the cross paying for our sins?


We believe the punishment is ‘affixed’ for a certain about of time and not forever. To be “saved” means not to have to endure the punishment.

As I repent of new sins I will be saved from those too, meaning I won’t have to suffer the punishment.

Those who do not bow their knee to Christ will not be saved they will have to pay for their own sins by enduring the affixed or attached punishment. Once that is done they have will be rewarded for the good they have done by receiving the “affixed” reward. However they will be out of the presence of both God the Father and God the Son, never to enter their presence again and that indeed would be sorrowful.

So do you think that the kingdoms that are not the highest level of the "Celestial Kingdom" are semi-hells?

Salvation is not of works. All of the saved will be with God, not separated from Him. Separation from God for all eternity is everlasting(never-ending) punishment.

By not believing in the Triune God, and not having three gods equal in greatness, is like cutting a pie in thirds and giving people only a third of God's Presence. That isn't mentioned as a gift or punishment of God in the Bible.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Salvation is not of works. All of the saved will be with God, not separated from Him. Separation from God for all eternity is everlasting(never-ending) punishment.

In your theology, what did these people sentenced to everlasting punishment do to deserve it compared to those whom get everlasting paradise? Nothing. Did they just happened to be randomly chosen by God to be forced there, versus those randomly chosen to be forced elsewhere?

 

[fatboys]

So do you think that the kingdoms that are not the highest level of the "Celestial Kingdom" are semi-hells?

Salvation is not of works. All of the saved will be with God, not separated from Him. Separation from God for all eternity is everlasting(never-ending) punishment.

By not believing in the Triune God, and not having three gods equal in greatness, is like cutting a pie in thirds and giving people only a third of God's Presence. That isn't mentioned as a gift or punishment of God in the Bible.

Why would a mind loving father punish a creation to hell not of their own doing but because he chose not to save them? I don't get it.

 

[Rescued One]

Why would a mind loving father punish a creation to hell not of their own doing but because he chose not to save them? I don't get it.

There is no person who doesn't deserve hell.

 

[Jane_Doe]

There is no person who doesn't deserve hell.

But you believe some God randomly forces to Hell and some others He randomly forces to salvation? Those which God forces to Hell have done nothing particularly special to deserve it compared to those who were saved?

 

[withwonderingawe]

There is no person who doesn't deserve hell.

What a sad way to believe. You left a church which taught you that we are all beloved children of of our Heavenly Father to worship a God who would burn eternally the same children. I just don't understand it, guess I never will.