I will read it and thanks for the caring and thoughfulness which sending this to me represents as well as your time.
My Reply to esq1938 (in Red):
That's the fire not the person. The sentence is death not life.
(where the worm never dies refers to a human’s death not ending)
Heb_12:29 For our God is a
consuming fire.
G2654
?ata?a??´s??
katanalisko¯
kat-an-al-is'-ko
From G2596 and G355;
to consume utterly: - consume.
compare that to this:
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to
destroy both soul and body
in hell.
(Hell is referred to as death of a soul…as in a Godly, spiritual soul and hell is defined as eternal.)
G622
a?p?´???µ?
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639;
to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.
(I don’t consider Bible dictionaries to be on par with contextual reading.)
Both speak about fire which can fully destroy/consume something...the fire of a star is very hot, but that man can recreate the same temperatures in welding makes me think the fire of "hell" is something far stronger/hotter.
(Only maybe as hot as the surface temperature of a star, but that is not something to argue about.)
Fire represents a destructive force. This lake of fire won't be normal fire as we can create ourselves. I believe it to be God himself since God is a consuming fire. So God can create something, and can uncreate something as well. I believe the lake of fire is simply an uncreating process described in a way simple so people could understand it's basic function- destruction.
(People kill themselves because they WANT to die…this would be a type of reward for some…something for you to to consider.)
There was a time none of us existed. God has decided that the bad, wicked, evil etc etc of us should return to that non-existence. There is a fire which is unlike any fire man knows which will be used to destroy souls which essentially and definitively uncreates them.
(God says He will make each man and every animal accountable to Him however…I know you are saying that this annihilation is the reckoning of the wicked, but it sounds like not to me…remember, there are clearly stated Bible passages to the contrary.)
Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
(We have the Matthew passages and Revelation, etc which speak directly to eternal fate. The wicked will no longer be among us in heaven…sounds more like that is the point…they consume away is then that worm that never dieth.)
There is only one kind of eternal life, and that is with God as overcomers judged to life. Those judged to death on judgment day, which is called the second death, will not have eternal life in hell or torment. Their punishment is death and that punishment will last for all eternity. They shall not live eternally in agony because they shall not have eternal life of any kind.
What does life mean to you in this context though? …and…
Jesus said… “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be
tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Don't assume “day and night forever and ever” is literal:
(But I must)
Isa 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
Isa 34:9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
Isa 34:10
It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever. (This is still a picture of eternal punishment in my view and doesn’t prove your point to me. This tells me the wicked will not enter “the land” ever…heaven.
(There is an unfolding of the Gospel in the Bible as you well know and while we can look to the O.T. as a laying of the foundation for what Christ would later expound, we do not see it so clearly as we would out of the mouth of Jesus in the N.T.)
Isaiah uses similar language concerning Edom and Edom is not still burning. This is an intentional exaggeration and should be understood in that way just as Rev 20:10 should be.
Another example:
Exo 21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall
serve him for ever.
(My Bible, NIV 84, uses the word life there not for ever.)
Not literally forever of course. It simply means "a long time", ie: the rest of his life, an intentional exaggeration.
Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of
eternal fire.
(Why use the word eternal)
Sodom and Gomorrha are not still burning therefore this eternal fire does not imply the target burns forever but this fire exists eternally whether it has something to burn or not and since God is a consuming fire it makes sense that it is eternal because God is eternal. Remember that this fire isn't actual fire. The word fire is used because it's the closest way for us to have any chance to understand the destructive nature and result of this "fire".
(It says they are an example of what is to come in God’s eternal judgment…the picture is clear…it also serves to points us to the rest of the symbolism found in the O.T. The message works together, Jesus was very clear in His words about hell and so this is indeed a clear example…God was unfolding His salvation plan for through symbolism in the O.T. and the reader learns this hear.)
And look at how many scriptures refute the idea of eternal life in hell fire:
"The soul that sinneth,
it shall die."
Ezekiel 18:4. (Hell is death…death of the soul)
John 1:4-5: In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
Therefore if you are not a believer you aren’t in Christ and you shall die…the opposite of life in Christ (heaven) is death…the second death…this is not definitive in this context.
"He that overcometh shall not be hurt of
the second death."
Revelation 2:11
(overcomes sin through Christ in this life.)
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is
the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
Revelation 20:14,15.
And the second death is being thrown into the fiery lake of burning sulfur and what is the length of time? is the issue here. Life is in Christ…to be apart from Christ is death…how??? This doesn’t resolve that issue.
"The earth and all the inhabitants thereof
are dissolved." Psalm 75:3.
"Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let
the wicked be no more." Psalm 104:35.
"Consume them in wrath,
consume them, that they may not be." Psalm 59:13.
"The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but
all the wicked will he destroy." Psalm 145:20
(The above passages fall under my same understanding already listed as what death means…away from God. Jesus came to give life and give it to the full for all who believe.)
"When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish;
it is that they shall be destroyed for ever: Psalm 92:7
"For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly,
shall be as stubble; and the day cometh that shall
burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that
it shall leave them neither root nor branch."
Malachi 4:1
"And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and
they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed."
Isaiah 1:28
"Enter ye in at the straight gate: for wide is the fate, and broad is the way, that
leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat."
Matthew 7:13
"But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away."
Psalms 37:20
(Read the above passages, but same nature as those I’ve address therefore I won’t respond to each one individually for you for the sake of time.)
Judgment is a decision to reward or punish someone. The judgement/punishment for sin is death (
Romans 6:23), which is also called the second death (Rev 21:8), and that judgement/punishment is written to be eternal/everlasting (
Mark 3:29,
Hebrews 6:2). So, eternal punishment is an eternal death.
(Yes…and death means no light in them and no life…again, what is life?)
Two things happen to the wicked. First they will die the second death which means soul and body dies and then their soul and body shall be destroyed.
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
(There is no life, no spiritual life outside of Christ…should a man choose evil over God he will have his soul/the life-giving spirit, destroyed in hell.)
Here we have death of the soul likened to destruction of the soul. One cannot be destroyed without dying so the two go hand in hand. While the Greek word here can mean several things, we know from other scriptures esp. the OT which has only one meaning for "destruction" being literal destruction, that this word here means:
apollumi
Thayer Definition:
1)
to destroy
1a)
to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
1)
to destroy
1b)
render useless
1c)
to kill
1d)
to declare that one must be put to death
1e) metaphorically to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
2) to destroy
2a) to lose
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G575 and the base of G3639
Citing in TDNT: 1:394, 67
(God uses context to speak to us though…He gives us His Spirit to instruct us.)
Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
This also relates the death of the wicked to their complete destruction/consumation as well as death.
Psalms 145:20 The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but
all the wicked will he destroy.
H8045
????
sha^mad
BDB Definition:
1) to destroy, exterminate, be destroyed, be exterminated
1a) (Niphal)
1a1) to be annihilated, be exterminated
1a2) to be destroyed, be devastated
1b) (Hiphil)
1b1) to annihilate, exterminate
1b2) to destroy
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 2406
Lets use the same logic some apply. We know that our preservation by the Lord shall be eternal, known as salvation or eternal life then the opposite for the wicked would be eternal death and destruction right? Not to be preserved to suffer eternal torture!
Isaiah 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.
Isaiah 1:28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and
they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed.
Here the same concept. All sinners judged and consumed at the same time which cannot be anything other than the final judgement.
(I think it can indeed)
The punishment for sin is death (
Romans 6:23), which is also called the second death (Rev 20, 21), and that judgement/decision (also called damnation) is written to be eternal/everlasting (
Mark 3:29,
Hebrews 6:2).
Psalms 92:7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish;
it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:
Some teach that God will not do as he says.
Psalms 37:16 A little that a righteous man hath is better than the riches of many wicked.
Psalms 37:17 For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the LORD upholdeth the righteous.
Psalms 37:18 The LORD knoweth the days of the upright: and their inheritance shall be for ever.
Psalms 37:19 They shall not be ashamed in the evil time: and in the days of famine they shall be satisfied.
Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs:
they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
Do they perish, consumed away in smoke or do they live forever in torture?? Scripture is clear!
Psalms 145:20 The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but
all the wicked will he destroy.
Psalms 104:35 Let
the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.
Isaiah 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.
Isaiah 1:28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and
they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed.
Isaiah 1:29 For they shall be ashamed of the oaks which ye have desired, and ye shall be confounded for the gardens that ye have chosen.
Isaiah 1:30 For ye shall be as an oak whose leaf fadeth, and as a garden that hath no water.
Isaiah 1:31 And the strong shall be as tow, and the maker of it as a spark, and
they shall both burn together, and none shall quench them.
2 Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts,
made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
Hebrews 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation,
which shall devour the adversaries.
Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Hebrews 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Hebrews 10:31 It
is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Jeremiah 6:27 I have set thee for a tower and a fortress among my people, that thou mayest know and try their way.
Jeremiah 6:28 They are all grievous revolters, walking with slanders: they are brass and iron; they are all corrupters.
Jeremiah 6:29 The bellows are burned, the lead is consumed of the fire; the founder melteth in vain: for
the wicked are not plucked away.
Jeremiah 6:30 Reprobate silver shall men call them, because the LORD hath rejected them.
Why are they wicked?
They are corrupt and God has rejected them.
2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in
them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
They wouldn't receive the truth to be saved so they shall be destroyed!
2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2 Thessalonians 2:12 That
they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Those that had pleasure in unrighteousness and received not the truth shall perish and be damned.
Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2851&t=KJV
1) correction, punishment, penalty
The lexicon there says the word punishment in this verse means "correction, punishment, penalty" not firery torment. As I have been saying, the kind of punishment inflicted is unnamed in this verse but is given many places elsewhere as both death and destruction.
The righteous are not sinless but they repent and love God and believe upon Christ and that is counted righteous and though all are wicked in some sense, it is only those who love unrighteousness, who do not love God, who don't repent and don't follow Christ that shall be destroyed.
Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and
few there be that find it.
The way to destruction is wide and many will be destroyed. FEW will find the way to life. Read it more than once if you don't believe this. Christ said it and it is true.
Read it All, only commented on part, a large part, because my views stand the same on those interpretationsyou cite in the following passages.
