What is the purpose behind an eternal hell?

[throughfiierytrial]

That says perish, not remain.

Perish there, in context, is they are dying the first death (in other words they will not be born-again) so extrapolating, we know all those who face the 1st death or all the unbelievers will also face the 2nd death...hell see Revelation. At that point we take up the argument of what is the second death/hell. But, this passage gives their reason for unbelief.

 

[aiki]

On the false notion that the second death in Scripture means annihilation:

http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=11&article=1861

https://www.jashow.org/articles/guests-and-authors/dr-norman-geisler-2/annihilationism/

Selah.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

That's the fire not the person. The sentence is death not life.

Heb_12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

G2654
?ata?a??´s??
katanalisko¯
kat-an-al-is'-ko
From G2596 and G355; to consume utterly: - consume.

compare that to this:


Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

G622
a?p?´???µ?
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.


Both speak about fire which can fully destroy/consume something...the fire of a star is very hot, but that man can recreate the same temperatures in welding makes me think the fire of "hell" is something far stronger/hotter.

The righteous are not sinless but they repent and love God and believe upon Christ and that is counted righteous and though all are wicked in some sense, it is only those who love unrighteousness, who do not love God, who don't repent and don't follow Christ that shall be destroyed.

I want to tell you thanks for the efforts and I will try at some point reply to you more meaningfully...not easy to address all this, but again, thank you.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

don't know why this ended up this way, but the answer above is tucked inside the bottom of the quoted area...sorry.

 

[ewq1938]

don't know why this ended up this way, but the answer above is tucked inside the bottom of the quoted area...sorry.

It's ok you had the quote function wrong somehow. Anyways read each verse in that post and try to reconsider the idea that people are still alive in the fire when they are supposed to die and be destroyed.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

It's ok you had the quote function wrong somehow. Anyways read each verse in that post and try to reconsider the idea that people are still alive in the fire when they are supposed to die and be destroyed.

I will read it and thanks for the caring and thoughfulness which sending this to me represents as well as your time.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Its purpose is to serve as a place where people can be who do not want to be with God. Simple.

What if the people who don't want to be with God want to be in Heaven?

 

[ewq1938]

What if the people who don't want to be with God want to be in Heaven?

Like prisoners wanting not to be in prison? lol
I'm afraid they have only one fate if they don't want to be with God because those types God don't want around either..

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Like prisoners wanting not to be in prison? lol
I'm afraid they have only one fate if they don't want to be with God because those types God don't want around either..

Bearing in mind that they were imprisoned unjustly for thought crimes, I'd say they'd have a good case for not being in prison at all.

 

[Davian]

I think it has been well-established as truth, or I wouldn't believe it. The arguments and evidences for God are many and sound and may be discovered in a host of books, videos and websites that explain the arguments and evidences. Now, you may reject it all as "opinion," but it nonetheless exists and properly satisfies the rules of logic and the principles of reason and evidence against which such things are assessed. Until you can demonstrate that it all fails to do so, you are the one exerting an opinion and may well be foolish and self-deceived.

Classic burden-shifting, and off-topic to this thread. Let's keep the discussion to your theology, in the absence of your ability to demonstrate that gods exist.

As I said, in the absence of any good reason to think otherwise, it's as good a reason as any.

Standards

• Davian
• Jun 1, 2015

Well, as I said, there are good reasons in abundance to think God exists. But they are good, not just if you happen to think that they are, but in their conformity to a more objective standard, which I have mentioned a couple of times now. Until you've shown that the reasons for belief in God truly fail to meet this objective standard, your rejection of it is unreasonable.

Again with the burden-shifting. If your particular "God" could actually be measured, in some objective manner, it would be all in the news, and we would not be having this conversation.

An objective measure? Of what sort, exactly? Deductive reasoning (which is an objective measure) points directly to God, as the Kalam Cosmological Argument demonstrates.

The KCA is built on speculation and presupposition, and does not directly point to a 'god', and certainly not a personal/biblical-type 'god'.

God's holy justice demands the punishment of our wickedness. This is at the core of what justice is. But the demands of God's justice are so high no one of us could ever fully satisfy them - not the serial killer nor Mother Theresa. Only God, in His perfection and power, could ever make full atonement for our sin. And since God is also loving and merciful, He paid the penalty of our sin for us, suffering and satisfying the full extent of His justice on our behalf. Thus, God's salvation of vile sinners does not ignore or circumvent justice but meets it head on, satisfies it, and as a consequence is able to extend to us all mercy, forgiveness and love.

Then this is not justice as the word is commonly used. In a court of law, would you expect to be held accountable for things beyond your control? For things that others have done? No? Not in my country, at least.

If you're looking for a very exhaustive, philosophical definition you can find one here:

www.reasonablefaith.org

Been there; more presuppositional than philosophical.

Why would you expect the natural to comport with the supernatural? The material universe is to God what a clay pot is to the potter who made it. Do you expect the clay pot to possess all the attributes and abilities of the potter? Obviously not. The potter can do an enormous number of things of which the clay pot is not capable. So, too, with nature and the God who made it.

Define "supernatural" in a manner that might differentiate it from "imaginary".

Well, obviously, I don't think the theory upon which you're relying is the best explanation of the human moral sense. I think a Moral Law Giver makes more sense.

Is this that same "moral" law giver that lets serial killers and rapists go to heaven yet burns others for reasons beyond their control? Does this 'moral' law giver idea provide any explanatory power greater than opinion?

Well, "compelling" is a pretty subjective and shifting standard. What is compelling to one person is not necessarily compelling to another.

I can only speak for me. I do not find it compelling.

Exactly. Though, if they reject God's atonement for their sin, they will spend all of eternity paying for their sin themselves.

But if they do accept it, then all of that raping and killing is dismissed. I still do not see this 'justice' previously spoken of.

No. Justice is satisfied. God has made sure of that. What you're really objecting to, it seems, is God's mercy. Apparently, you think God

I think gods are fictional.

should be as unmerciful as you are. I'm very glad He is not. Maybe one day you'll be, too.

I am only objecting to the equivocations. I understand that your theology, while claiming to be 'just', is morally bankrupt.

Yes, it is wonderful how God stoops down even to the vilest of people and offers them mercy, grace and forgiveness! How good He is!

...while he burns others for reasons beyond their control.

Going back a post or so to an outstanding claim that you made...

Sure you can. It isn't that you lack the capacity to believe. You exercise faith in all sorts of things every day. You just haven't chosen to do so toward God.

Try it yourself. Choose to believe that gods are only characters in books, right now.

Let me know when you have done so.

 

[ewq1938]

Bearing in mind that they were imprisoned unjustly for thought crimes

Those "crimes" are still sin and are valid for punishment, but "thought crimes" aren't only what people commit either.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Those "crimes" are still sin and are valid for punishment, but "thought crimes" aren't only what people commit either.

You think it is just to punish someone eternally for not believing in the right doctrines?

 

[ewq1938]

You think it is just to punish someone eternally for not believing in the right doctrines?

It's a bit more than just doctrines but I do believe what God decides is fair and right.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

It's a bit more than just doctrines but I do believe what God decides is fair and right.

And why would Hell be "fair and right"?

 

[ewq1938]

And why would Hell be "fair and right"?

I don't believe in eternal torture but eternal annihilation if that matters. Rev 20 and 21 say it's the second death so I don't believe people are tortured alive forever. They are destroyed.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I don't believe in eternal torture but eternal annihilation if that matters. Rev 20 and 21 say it's the second death so I don't believe people are tortured alive forever. They are destroyed.

And that is "fair and right" because...?

 

[ewq1938]

And that is "fair and right" because...?

Same reason why it's "fair and right" to punish criminals. There has to be law and morals and punishments for those who reject the moral and lawful system.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Same reason why it's "fair and right" to punish criminals. There has to be law and morals and punishments for those who reject the moral and lawful system.

But the "crime" we are talking about is nonbelief.

 

[ewq1938]

But the "crime" we are talking about is nonbelief.

Non-belief involves more than just that though like unrepentance and unforgiveness and rejection of the Messiah and these are serious issues.

Have you ever done something wrong? Do you think that just goes away magically? We all have done wrong and we need to be forgiven.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Non-belief involves more than just that though like unrepentance and unforgiveness and rejection of the Messiah and these are serious issues.

Why?

Have you ever done something wrong? Do you think that just goes away magically? We all have done wrong and we need to be forgiven.

The Ray Comfort technique ain't gonna work.