What is the proper Christian response to a homosexual?

[UberLutheran]

I'm still waiting for you to present some logical argument...you can play your childish games they don't do anything for you.

24. Change the subject. Go vague.

 

[UberLutheran]

I'm wondering why this thread wasn't just named "Let's all gang up and jump on NewGuy because he doesn't believe in homosexuality?" Because any good discussion you guys might have had in mind here (and I don't think a good discussion was your intent at all) was just blown with your constant ganging up thing. This looks like a gang of kids ganing up on one other on a playground. Sorry but I'm calling it like I see it.

How would I treat a homosexual? I would treat you like I would treat any other "associate" of mine. I would be nice to you sure, no problem there. But I'm going to be truthful here, you asked. I would not have a close friendship with you or invite you to my home or anything like that. In other words, a homosexual of either gender would NEVER be in my inner circle of friends. For one thing I believe that homosexuality is clearly an abdomination to the Lord. Scripture couldn't be more clear on that one. I would not expose my children, my home, or myself to values that I do not believe in. I'm not politically correct and I don't care to be. I don't want to have to explain to God one day why I went against His word and joined with the word of the world. That's just how it is guys! You can pick, rant, rave, say I spelled wrong, whatever. I think that what you do is wrong and more so I think you know its wrong. And I'm still not at all sure what your point was with this thread.

Don't bother with scripture trying to change my mind here. I know what the Lord says on this one. And as Shakespeare said, "Even Satan can quote scripture for his cause" right?
Lesley

I wonder what Jesus would say about an attitude like that. Oh, wait -- here it is: Matthew 9:9-13, 11:19, 21:31-32; Mark 2:14-17; Luke 5:27-32, 15:1-2, 18:10-14, 19:1-9.

 

[Jameskind]

rick0824 Thank you for the response on Leslie's view. I respectfully disagree with Leslie also however it is sad that their are other men who call themself a Christian and take the same view. One of them is a very close friend of mine whom I have shared my life with him and my past as well as my ministry of working with men who have or have had SSA. My friend has taken a complete turn on his previous view and we have had a lot of 1-1 discussion in how it affects mens lives and how it came into my life. We just held a Love Won Out conference this past weekend and it was terrific. Mike Haley from Focus on the Family was one of many terrific speakers who gave his testimony of how God intervened in his life and brought him out of many years of living in a homosexual life. Men.... God is working!!! In answer to the question posted: "I would love them with the love of Christ and I do. That is my mission field.
James

 

[Polycarp1]

I wonder what Jesus would say about an attitude like that. Oh, wait -- here it is: Matthew 9:9-13, 11:19, 21:31-32; Mark 2:14-17; Luke 5:27-32, 15:1-2, 18:10-14, 19:1-9.

There you go again, perverting the Scriptures! Why, to hear you talk, you'd think Jesus came to offer salvation to sinners, not exclusively to those who kept the Law (or at least their own opinion of what it called for, and judged others for not doing likewise)!

 

[UnitedInChrist]

rick0824 Thank you for the response on Leslie's view. I respectfully disagree with Leslie also however it is sad that their are other men who call themself a Christian and take the same view. One of them is a very close friend of mine whom I have shared my life with him and my past as well as my ministry of working with men who have or have had SSA. My friend has taken a complete turn on his previous view and we have had a lot of 1-1 discussion in how it affects mens lives and how it came into my life. We just held a Love Won Out conference this past weekend and it was terrific. Mike Haley from Focus on the Family was one of many terrific speakers who gave his testimony of how God intervened in his life and brought him out of many years of living in a homosexual life. Men.... God is working!!! In answer to the question posted: "I would love them with the love of Christ and I do. That is my mission field.
James

I'm not sure how to take your post. First off, Focus on the Family is questionable at best. It is based in spiritual abuse simply because it is made to have gay christians believe they are not worthy and need to change. Their philosophy is "people can change and do not have to live a homosexual life". Ok, let me ask you...why is it only fatih based organizations that even push or get involved with such concepts? Overcoming homosexuality has ZERO support from the accredited, licensed, and trained psychologiest that make up over 466,000 organizations WORLD wide. NONE of them suppor this, so why is that? Why does everything that has to do witht "ex gay" or "overcoming homosexuality" stem from a ministry? That alone should make one extremely skeptical. Would you go to your Dr to get your Sunday sermon? Then why would you suggest ministries start playing with peoples minds? It is even more damanging that what they signed up for to begin with. I appreicate you getting something out of the lecture. What I also am aware of is not only what I stated above, but also that over 80% of "used to be homosexuals" are in the ministry AND work as ex-gay counselors. Your example also proves that. Again...you sit and blindly accept that? If you do, I would suggest you rent and/or by a copy of "Fish Can't Fly". It is a documentary of peole that went through the ex-gay MINISTIRES, and came out with emotional issues beyond what they started with. Not only do gay people have higher rates of drug abuse, alcohol abuse, and suicide, but those going through reparitive therapy are even HIGHER. In addition to this, add to it anxiety, depression, panic, and impotence. They become so overwhelm with guilt being lead to believe they need to change as they are not worthy, they have no where to turn.

Also, I have always said, homosexuals can easily turn their back on homosexuality. When they are being paid to say it worked, and they are being paid to give lectures on it, and being paid to councel on it, it fits perfectly into their world. But a homosexual is a homosexual. practicing it is one thing. Being it is another. Finally, in the event you didn't know, I hope you do realize the former leaders of Focus on the Family were found in a gay bar in DC dealing drugs. Along with that, the FOUNDERS of REPARATIE THERAPY, otherwise known as EX-GAY MINISTRIES, have since left the practice, said it does not work, and have had a committment ceremony and gotten married. Two great examples which goes right in the face of what they are "preaching". There is no need to "cure" something that isn't a disease to begin with.

 

[UberLutheran]

There you go again, perverting the Scriptures! Why, to hear you talk, you'd think Jesus came to offer salvation to sinners, not exclusively to those who kept the Law (or at least their own opinion of what it called for, and judged others for not doing likewise)!

Well, you seem to have this idea of Jesus being a friendly, cuddly, nice-guy-with-a-beard, Kum-Bah-Yah singing hippie freak, and you'd better straighten up and fly right if you know what's good for you -- nobody is going to do your chores around here for you and nobody gets a free ride around here, and if you want to get ahead in life you're going to have to WORK for it and nobody is going to give you a handout or a free lunch, so if you know what's good for you you'd better get up off your keester and get busy!

[/Lutheran rant]

 

[ThyNeighbor]

How about pure statistics then:

Number of posts by NewGuy101 (as of this posting) = 200.

Number of posts in forum threads OTHER THAN "Debates on Homosexuality" = 19

Number of post in forum thread "Debates of Homosexuality" = 181

Come to your own conclusions.

 

[ilovelucyMT]

Okay, I am going to post for a change.

My response to homosexuals is love. I love them and God loves them. He gave us the ability to make our own choices in life. I am not the one to judge anyone and how they live their life. Jesus does that. I am not going to judge anyone!! If a same sex couple moved next door, I would treat them like all of my other neighbors. I would wave to them, talk to them, ect. They are no different than us heterosexuals. (did I spell that right )

I will never forget this show I saw on HBO one night. Rosie was in it and they went on a cruise with other same sex couples. Well they went to this place and there were people screaming very hurtful words to them because they were homosexual. These are people with children on vacation with their families and Christians are degrading them. I think that is completely wrong and sad. Their children were crying, adults were crying, and the protesters just kept on. In my opinion, that is not what being a Christian is about. The key word in Christianity for me is love. I want to show love to anyone and everyone regardless of who they are! Degrading people for who they are is not love, its hatred. God loves them so everyone should. God loves us all.

Anyways, I hope I summed up how I feel and didn't confuse anyone or step on anyones toes. If I did, I am sorry.

 

[MyHeart07]

Hi. I would first like to say that in no way do I dislike or judge homosexuals (hate the sin, love the sinner). I show them love. I try to to let them see Jesus when they talk to me.

That being said, homosexuality is quite clearly a sin and an abomination in God's eyes. There is plenty of Scripture to support this throughout the entire Bible.

Some parts of the Book of Romans come to mind for me right now:

Rom 1:21
For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Rom 1:22
Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools

Rom 1:23
and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

Rom 1:24
Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.

Rom 1:25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator–who is forever praised. Amen.

Rom 1:26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.

Rom 1:27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

Rom 1:28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.

Rom 1:29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips,

Rom 1:30 slanderers, God‑haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents;

Rom 1:31 they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless.

Rom 1:32 Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

 

[David Brider]

I'm wondering why this thread wasn't just named "Let's all gang up and jump on NewGuy because he doesn't believe in homosexuality?" Because any good discussion you guys might have had in mind here (and I don't think a good discussion was your intent at all) was just blown with your constant ganging up thing. This looks like a gang of kids ganing up on one other on a playground. Sorry but I'm calling it like I see it.

How would I treat a homosexual? I would treat you like I would treat any other "associate" of mine. I would be nice to you sure, no problem there. But I'm going to be truthful here, you asked. I would not have a close friendship with you or invite you to my home or anything like that. In other words, a homosexual of either gender would NEVER be in my inner circle of friends. For one thing I believe that homosexuality is clearly an abdomination to the Lord. Scripture couldn't be more clear on that one.

Homosexual sex, maybe - and even that's dubious, 'cos it depends on exactly how one interprets about half a dozen verses which are actually far more ambiguously worded than their English translation might suggest. But where on earth do you get the idea that Scripture has anything to say about homosexuality?

David.

 

[Der Alte]

Homosexual sex, maybe - and even that's dubious, 'cos it depends on exactly how one interprets about half a dozen verses which are actually far more ambiguously worded than their English translation might suggest. But where on earth do you get the idea that Scripture has anything to say about homosexuality?

David.

Some of my previous posts where I prove this entire post to be totally false. The ancient Jews, from the time of Moses, clearly understood the O.T. scriptures as prohibiting ALL homosexual copulation, in all places and all circumstances.

Also the early church, at least, for the first 300 years, clearly understood the N.T. scriptures as prohibiting ALL homosexual copulation, in all places and all circumstances.

Also included lexical and grammatical evidence showing that the words, which are supposedly "ambiguous," are in fact very clear.

But feel free to ignore the evidence and hold on to your new age, secular humanistic, if it feels good do it philosophy.

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=33939297&postcount=65

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=33963966&postcount=67

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=33964023&postcount=68

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=33936957&postcount=59

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=33937111&postcount=60

 

[David Brider]

Some of my previous posts where I prove this entire post to be totally false. The ancient Jews, from the time of Moses, clearly understood the O.T. scriptures as prohibiting ALL homosexual copulation, in all places and all circumstances.

Also the early church, at least, for the first 300 years, clearly understood the N.T. scriptures as prohibiting ALL homosexual copulation, in all places and all circumstances.

Even if that's true - and given that there's a wealth of informed and educated opinion on both sides of the debate, it's clearly not as cut and dried as you seem to think (and FWIW, it's got absolutely nothing to do with a "new age, secular humanistic, if it feels good do it philosophy") - even if it's true that the OT and NT Scriptures clearly and unambiguously teach that all homosexual sex is sinful, that still doesn't address the question - where do you, or anyone else, get the idea Scripture says anything about homosexuality?

David.

 

[Der Alte]

Even if that's true - and given that there's a wealth of informed and educated opinion on both sides of the debate, it's clearly not as cut and dried as you seem to think (and FWIW, it's got absolutely nothing to do with a "new age, secular humanistic, if it feels good do it philosophy") -

If that is so, then why don't you take some time, as I have done, do some legitimate research and provide me with some credible, verifiable, historical, lexical, grammatical "wealth of informed and educated opinion?"

even if it's true that the OT and NT Scriptures clearly and unambiguously teach that all homosexual sex is sinful, that still doesn't address the question - where do you, or anyone else, get the idea Scripture says anything about homosexuality?

David.

Your question does not make any sense. If as I said, and you conceded for the sake of discussion, that the OT and NT Scriptures clearly and unambiguously teach that all homosexual sex is sinful how does that not say anything about homosexuality? Note the highlighted words.

"(and FWIW, it's got absolutely nothing to do with a "new age, secular humanistic, if it feels good do it philosophy")" If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck. . .

 

[David Brider]

If that is so, then why don't you take some time, as I have done, do some legitimate research and provide me with some credible, verifiable, historical, lexical, grammatical "wealth of informed and educated opinion?"

Your question does not make any sense. If as I said, and you conceded for the sake of discussion, that the OT and NT Scriptures clearly and unambiguously teach that all homosexual sex is sinful how does that not say anything about homosexuality? Note the highlighted words.

Your first question, I'll get back to you on asap. (FWIW, it's an issue that I have done some research on.)

As for the second...there's a difference between homosexual sex, and homosexuality. One can be a homosexual without engaging in homosexual sex. (Indeed, one can engage in homosexual sex without being a homosexual.) By reducing the debate to "homosexuality is a sin," people make the Scriptures say something that it never actually says - and whilst the debate over homosexual activity will, in all likelihood, continue until the Second Coming, I can't help thinking it's spectacularly counterproductive to declare that same-sex attraction is itself inherently sinful.

"(and FWIW, it's got absolutely nothing to do with a "new age, secular humanistic, if it feels good do it philosophy")" If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck. . .

I can't speak for other contributors to this discussion, but no, you couldn't be further from understanding my position if you think that's where I'm coming from.

But thanks all the same.

David.

 

[Der Alte]

I'm not sure how to take your post. First off, Focus on the Family is questionable at best. It is based in spiritual abuse simply because it is made to have gay christians believe they are not worthy and need to change. [No evidence! No substantiation! No proof!] Their philosophy is "people can change and do not have to live a homosexual life". [And your point is?] Ok, let me ask you...why is it only fatih based organizations that even push or get involved with such concepts? [No evidence! No substantiation! No proof!] Overcoming homosexuality has ZERO support from the accredited, licensed, and trained psychologiest that make up over 466,000 organizations WORLD wide. NONE of them suppor this, so why is that? [No evidence! No substantiation! No proof! What percentage of professionals are gay?] Why does everything that has to do witht "ex gay" or "overcoming homosexuality" stem from a ministry? [No evidence! No substantiation! No proof!] That alone should make one extremely skeptical. Would you go to your Dr to get your Sunday sermon? [Logical Fallacy.] Then why would you suggest ministries start playing with peoples minds? It is even more damanging that what they signed up for to begin with. [No evidence! No substantiation! No proof!] I appreicate you getting something out of the lecture. What I also am aware of is not only what I stated above, but also that over 80% of "used to be homosexuals" are in the ministry AND work as ex-gay counselors [No evidence! No substantiation! No proof!] Your example also proves that. Again...you sit and blindly accept that? If you do, I would suggest you rent and/or by a copy of "Fish Can't Fly". It is a documentary of peole that went through the ex-gay MINISTIRES, and came out with emotional issues beyond what they started with. [Is that “documentary peer reviewed by professional Psychologists/Psychriatrists? Is there anything anywhere to confirm anything in this so-called documentary?]

Not only do gay people have higher rates of drug abuse, alcohol abuse, and suicide, but those going through reparitive therapy are even HIGHER. In addition to this, add to it anxiety, depression, panic, and impotence. They become so overwhelm with guilt being lead to believe they need to change as they are not worthy, they have no where to turn. [No evidence! No substantiation! No proof!]

Also, I have always said, homosexuals can easily turn their back on homosexuality. When they are being paid to say it worked, and they are being paid to give lectures on it, and being paid to councel on it, it fits perfectly into their world. [Logical fallacy, poisoning the well. No evidence! No substantiation! No proof!] But a homosexual is a homosexual. practicing it is one thing. Being it is another. Finally, in the event you didn't know, I hope you do realize the former leaders of Focus on the Family were found in a gay bar in DC dealing drugs. [Blatant slander and character assignation! You got your stories mixed up. The founder of Focus on the Family, Dr. James Dobson IS a Christian Psychologist, married with children and is still involved in his practice and ministry.] Along with that, the FOUNDERS of REPARATIE THERAPY, otherwise known as EX-GAY MINISTRIES, have since left the practice, said it does not work, and have had a committment ceremony and gotten married. [Blatant false statement. There is NO such organization as "REPARATIE THERAPY" or "EX-GAY MINISTRIES." Those are umbrella terms for many different practices/ministries. More of the same poison as the Dr. Dobson slander.]

Two great examples which goes right in the face of what they are "preaching". There is no need to "cure" something that isn't a disease to begin with.

You don't have good examples of anything, just a bunch of empty assertions and accusations which you can’t back up.

 

[Polycarp1]

If that is so, then why don't you take some time, as I have done, do some legitimate research and provide me with some credible, verifiable, historical, lexical, grammatical "wealth of informed and educated opinion?"



Your question does not make any sense. If as I said, and you conceded for the sake of discussion, that the OT and NT Scriptures clearly and unambiguously teach that all homosexual sex is sinful how does that not say anything about homosexuality? Note the highlighted words.

"(and FWIW, it's got absolutely nothing to do with a "new age, secular humanistic, if it feels good do it philosophy")" If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck. . .

Good. You've made your position clear. By the logic you use, no repentance and no forgiveness is possible, any temptation to sin (by your definition of sin) is grounds for barring someone from church permanently.

I've done those studies. I've reviewed the Scriptures. I do not buy the most extreme positions that apologists for homosexuality take on them. But I agree with the majority of Biblical critics and scholars that they are not as clearcut as your post suggests.

And your post sounds like a hatemongering abuse of the Gospel in support of evil. Since it "walks like a duck and quacks like a duck"....

Matthew 7:2 and 7:12 -- enjoy being hoist with your own petard. (And you can thank me; better that I make that judgment than that the Lord do so at the last judgment; see Matthew 9:13 and 25:31-46.)

 

[savedandhappy1]

Lesley, Lesley, Lesley....if your post was ever written outside of this forum, you would be one of the last people I would think were a Christian, or I would think you were a Christian Fundamentalist from the Bible Belt...both relatively the same. My only wish is that you don't have a gay child otherwise I'm afraid of what you may do in the name of Christianity. From my experience with the bible, it was none other but a prostitute that Christ embraced, and was the first to witness his resurrection. For you to sit in such judgement, and condemn, and spew hatred to your own brothers and sisters is somewhat shocking, but at the same time not really.

Rick, I believe you have your Mary's mixed up? Mary Magdalene wasn't a prostitute she was the woman that Jesus cast 7 demons out of, and one of the people who helped financially with Jesus's ministry.

http://www.magdalene.org/persp_trad.php

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Magdalene

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/135/story_13527_1.html

http://www.christianitytoday.com/tcw/2006/003/6.28.html

I am one of those people who lives in the Bible Belt, has been called a fundamentalist, and I have been told that I am conservative, so you probably....................................

I find it shocking that those 3 things are stated as bad things, frankly. I also find it hard to understand why saying something is a sin is considered to be judging and condemning? Yet calling those who believe that the Bible calls something a sin a hater, bigot, etc. isn't judging or condemning. Really confusing

I don't understand how hoping and praying that all ask forgiveness for their sins, since all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, makes a person a hater and a bigot?

Jesus told people to go and sin no more, not yeah I know this or that is a sin, but I love you so much I will just pretend it isn't.

I guess that someone will go and count my post now and make some statement as to what that means. I wonder what bad thing it could mean for all the post I have done in the Prayer Request section? I guess they probably won't count tho since I probably have more post in the homosexuality section anyway. Speaking of judging...................................

Now I know why I have taken the last few weeks to study, pray and do other things beside post and visit here. I think I will go back to doing that, since there is nothing new here.

Have a good day all.
​

 

[BigBadWlf]

Just to restate my position one more time, let me say, homosexuality is a sin, and it is wrong. However, so are countless other lifestyle choices that people we associate with are involved in. We are to show them love. We are to be loving and caring of them.

We are not to judge the world. Remember we were once like they are. We are to watch each others' steps, as Christians, but of the world we are not to judge. Show them love and openess.

I welcome gays attending my church. I don't expect lost people coming to church to look like saved people.

Now the point of disconect is when that actively practicing gay person wants to join the church. By joining you are saying that you agree with what the Bible teaches, you are going to try to live by it, and you are going to be an active part of this particular Christian community.

Anyone actively and unrepentantly living a blatantly sinful lifestyle should not be allowed to join. If it is found that a member is caught in such a lifestyle they would be subject to church discipline as outlined in Galatians 6 and Matthew 18.

That is my position.

Now if you want to speak politically I actually support gay marriage (unlike most other strong Biblical conservatives like myself) because I don't think we can or should legislate religious morality. However, I do think that parallel steps should be taken to make sure it is extremely difficult/impossible for them to adopt children.

what is this 'choice' you repeatedly speak of?

 

[BigBadWlf]

​

I find it shocking that those 3 things are stated as bad things, frankly. I also find it hard to understand why saying something is a sin is considered to be judging and condemning? Yet calling those who believe that the Bible calls something a sin a hater, bigot, etc. isn't judging or condemning. Really confusing​

And would you be confused people of good faith confronts a bible believing Christian calling equality between races sin and advocates for discrimination based on skin color?

I don't understand how hoping and praying that all ask forgiveness for their sins, since all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, makes a person a hater and a bigot?​

Justifying prejudice and advocating discrimination against an entire minority is what makes individuals bigots…the fact that some people happily use the bible in pursuit of hate whether that hate is directed against non-whites, non-Christians or non-heterosexuals doesn’t matter as it is all the same thing.

Jesus told people to go and sin no more, not yeah I know this or that is a sin, but I love you so much I will just pretend it isn't.​

Jesus also commanded us to love thy neighbor. And discrimination against an entire minority whether that minority being discriminated against is blacks or gays or Jews or the handicapped it is not love but hate

 

[BereanTodd]

what is this 'choice' you repeatedly speak of?

I don't see the word 'choice' anywhere in what you quoted from me, so can you please clarify what it is that you are wanting to know or discuss in relation to my post?