What is the point of living without hate?

[joey_downunder]

The problem is that God does absolutely nothing.

How do you know that? Are you God? Do you have all knowledge of what may or may not happen if X happened instead of Y?
Of course not. Only some clinically insane could possibly believe they know everything and therefore know better than God.

He does not stop evil nor does he give his followers any power to stand against it.

Look back at your life. Can you seriously say that there has been no time that some weird event happened or someone you met at exactly the right moment that made you wonder if someone must have been looking after you?e.g. when I was a teenager I was about to cross the road and I was suddenly pulled back hard. A car raced by at that pedestrian crossing. If I had not been pulled back I would have been hit. There was no one there behind me. A family member who claims to have ESP said she "saw" me flying through the air. If you are honest with yourself you will be able to think of similar things happening to you or people you know.

And before you start on all that "what about the bad stuff and all the tragedies in life.... " - God can turn what people think are hopeless and worthless circumstances into precious jewels IF WE LET HIM do that in our life.

We are just supposed to spend 80 years on this Earth waiting to die and watching those around us lose both body and soul??!!! We are to pray for God to help us be ok with reality the way it is? To not care and to do nothing?!

Who said that? Oh that's right- YOU did. Did Jesus do what you describe i.e. deny reality and do nothing at all? Did the apostles do that? Did the early church do that? Do modern Christians do that?

How many Christian charities and hospitals have been established even though suffering and death is inevitable? Death is part of life. Jesus conquered death at the cross. Through genuine faith in Jesus death can "be put to death" in your heart as well. 1 Corinthians 15:50-58

 

[bling]

In theory, yes. In reality, no. There may be opportunities but Christians don't seem to know what to do.

Agree, but would say it is not because Christians don’t know what to do, but it is because they do not allow the Spirit to work through themselves. God just keeps pressing them closer and closer to home.

What do you mean by this? Are you saying that almost nobody has an actual relationship with God? The Cross was a failed operation that only worked for tiny few?!

It is not the cross’ fault or God/Christ, but it is the fault of true Christians in the West. It does seem Christians in the underground church in China (estimated at 100 million today) are doing extremely well.

 

[Soothfish]

I think you will find any good martial arts fighter will prove you wrong on that one.

That is actually a pretty good point. Self control is very important. However, there still needs to be some sort of motivation to act even if the more 'visceral' feelings are held in check.

 

[Soothfish]

How do you know that? Are you God? Do you have all knowledge of what may or may not happen if X happened instead of Y?
Of course not. Only some clinically insane could possibly believe they know everything and therefore know better than God.

No I don't know everything. If I was 100% sure about my beliefs then I would not have posted this thread. However, it does seem that someone did a terrible job creating life. Either that or we are the product of purely random natural forces. Why? Because we are too stupid to even recognize a divine plan let alone understand it! The worst part is that many of us desire knowledge that we have no hope of obtaining.

Look back at your life. Can you seriously say that there has been no time that some weird event happened or someone you met at exactly the right moment that made you wonder if someone must have been looking after you?e.g. when I was a teenager I was about to cross the road and I was suddenly pulled back hard. A car raced by at that pedestrian crossing. If I had not been pulled back I would have been hit. There was no one there behind me. A family member who claims to have ESP said she "saw" me flying through the air. If you are honest with yourself you will be able to think of similar things happening to you or people you know.

No I can honestly say there have been no "weird events" leading me to believe that there were otherwordly beings who cared about us. I can acknowledge the existence of higher powers but not their activity on this planet. The most powerful forces on Earth are the feral monsters who maim, torture, and kill. To be honest, if an angel did end up saving my life I would be extremely angry at it. Why save me when I have no real desire to live and yet do absolutely nothing to save the little ones in the slums or in the warzones?! Ok so maybe he sends a few Christians to rescue them...statistically speaking there isn't much of that going on. We send a billion dollars a year to mass murderers and maybe a few thousand to rescuing the helpless. Christians continue to reelect the monsters who think this is a fantastic idea. I'm not even allowed to criticize their decision on this very forum!

And before you start on all that "what about the bad stuff and all the tragedies in life.... " - God can turn what people think are hopeless and worthless circumstances into precious jewels IF WE LET HIM do that in our life.

What is the "precious jewel" in a beheaded baby corpse? As long as that sort of thing exists I will not be cheerful about anything. Unless I manage to achieve enough self-delusion to disbelieve that it exists....which is particularly hard to do when I witness it regularly....

Maybe there is a heaven somewhere but we are standing in HELL right now. Earth is Hell!

Who said that? Oh that's right- YOU did. Did Jesus do what you describe i.e. deny reality and do nothing at all? Did the apostles do that? Did the early church do that? Do modern Christians do that?

How many Christian charities and hospitals have been established even though suffering and death is inevitable? Death is part of life. Jesus conquered death at the cross. Through genuine faith in Jesus death can "be put to death" in your heart as well. 1 Corinthians 15:50-58

You do realize that Christian charities and hospitals are being harassed by the federal government? We have demons in our government right now who want to forcibly convert all Christian organizations into killing centers. They want to kill people of all ages though they will spare those who are most loyal and useful to the party. They will not rest until we have a 100 million slaughtered innocents.

I would gladly go to war against these powers but it seems like most Christians are content to go about their daily lives and let the forces of evil do as they wish.

 

[joey_downunder]

Soothfish you know while we live in an imperfect world amongst imperfect people we will experience pain, tragedy, suffering and death.

Some people are at one extreme and deny reality/pretend nothing is wrong and life is a bed of roses. You are now at the other extreme. While all you see is death and destruction in the world that is what is happening to you in your inner world in slow motion. Inner chaos is devastating and soul-destroying.
Nihilism is your current faith. What a waste of a potentially good life that ideology can create. NIHILISM: The Root of the Revolution of the Modern Age


Have you ever looked at Jesus' life and how much suffering He went through? e.g. Can you possibly imagine knowing who would betray you but still loving that person and fellowshipping with that person for 3 years? Do you remember Jesus loved the false apostle Judas and Judas betrayed him for only 30 pieces of silver? How devastating that would have been to any person.

Hebrews 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Tempted as we were. Jesus bore the sins of all mankind on the cross. Imagine what torture He must have gone through. Yes some people have experienced terrible things and seen terrible things but Jesus has borne the consequences of ALL terrible things of ALL time. Romans 5:6-11 NKJV - Christ in Our Place

Through faith in Jesus you can be freed from your inner torment..... if you just choose to believe in Him.

 

[Faulty]

I do not understand why Christians are ordered to love their enemies and to not hate.

Without hate what is the point?

We are told to do these things because it is what God has done for us.

Men oppose Him, slander His name and ways and call Him evil in our eyes. We seek ways to find fault in Him while seeking to justify ourselves.

But even though men are born enemies of God, He loved us and condescended Himself to become one of us and took the punishment due us for all who would believe in His sacrifice alone as sufficient for our reconciliation with Himself and the forgiveness of the sins we committed as His enemy.

As the Bible states, we love Him because He first loved us. Now we are to show our fellow man love even when none is deserved, because that is what was done to us.

 

[Soothfish]

We are told to do these things because it is what God has done for us.

Men oppose Him, slander His name and ways and call Him evil in our eyes. We seek ways to find fault in Him while seeking to justify ourselves.

But even though men are born enemies of God, He loved us and condescended Himself to become one of us and took the punishment due us for all who would believe in His sacrifice alone as sufficient for our reconciliation with Himself and the forgiveness of the sins we committed as His enemy.

As the Bible states, we love Him because He first loved us. Now we are to show our fellow man love even when none is deserved, because that is what was done to us.

But is this really what God is doing? Supposedly the cross was a free gift of salvation and eternal life in paradise and yet the "free gift" is only available to those who can safely navigate an extremely complex web of spiritual confusion. Obviously I can't do that so the cross basically didn't happen as far as my worthless life is concerned.

 

[~Anastasia~]

But is this really what God is doing? Supposedly the cross was a free gift of salvation and eternal life in paradise and yet the "free gift" is only available to those who can safely navigate an extremely complex web of spiritual confusion. Obviously I can't do that so the cross basically didn't happen as far as my worthless life is concerned.

No, I wouldn't say that is true at all.

He said the Kingdom was made of such as these (little children). And we are to enter the Kingdom as little children.

It is simple enough that children can have a sufficient understanding and are, in fact, more prone to acceptance than adults, ime. No requirement that I can see to "navigate an extremely complex web of spiritual confusion" ... ?

 

[joey_downunder]

But is this really what God is doing? Supposedly the cross was a free gift of salvation and eternal life in paradise and yet the "free gift" is only available to those who can safely navigate an extremely complex web of spiritual confusion. Obviously I can't do that so the cross basically didn't happen as far as my worthless life is concerned.

The 12 apostles did not need to have theological doctorates to follow Jesus. THE TWELVE APOSTLES

Look at their occupations - not exactly an academic treasure-fest there....

Ask God to give you faith in Jesus. You can't just "get it" in by your own willpower or reasoning alone.
Matthew 7:7-12 , John 3 NKJV

 

[parsley]

The confusion web usually comes from what hyper-religious people have built up. More religion is not better religion; more specifications and guidelines do not bring us closer to God.

Much of Jesus' teachings challenged this legalism and web-building. He reminded people of the heart of the law, the simplicity. Sometimes He intentionally broke a man-made addition to the Law, just to remind people that it was not part of what God had given them through Moses.

Jesus insulted the religious leaders for piling on so many petty regulations that it was impossible to keep them. He was basically saying the same thing you are. Right there in the Bible, a criticism of religious leaders and the hoops they demand of people.

The problem is that God does absolutely nothing. He does not stop evil nor does he give his followers any power to stand against it.

It may appear that way, due to what is shown on paper. Big invisible Being with access to the whole universe/existence and a throne somewhere. But most people who have connected with God can tell you of times He did much for them. Rescues, insights, transformations of people around them. I am not trying to prove your statement wrong, but to point out that there is more to see.

A funny story -- one of my children had been bullied at school and the other student clung, so it was hard to get away from them. We prayed about it, and within a week the student transferred to another school. We ran into him years later, and his mother raved about what a change she'd seen in him since he attended the new school. It made me laugh because it was so easy. After striving and whining and feeling beaten down, all it took was a prayer.

That is just one old example and I have many -- more than one for every day across many years. It is hard to see the kingdom at work until one jumps into the middle of it.

On wanting to crush opponents, I think that just comes from having too many opponents. If society weren't so combative, and games continually putting people into a state of readiness, then there would be less need to take that stance. Imagine if everyone made choices to help their enemies (not always). Everyone would soften, and it would be a lot easier to live calmly and peaceably.

It takes a sacrificial act to initiate that peace, though. Someone has to give in first. Jesus did teach that high vulnerability, but He certainly acted out a much more assertive confrontation of injustices in society. And the Bible does not dedicate a lot of real estate to teaching how to help one's enemy.

There are times when one has to step back from teachers, and find out what God really says, more directly. The personal search for truth is important.

 

[Soothfish]

The confusion web usually comes from what hyper-religious people have built up. More religion is not better religion; more specifications and guidelines do not bring us closer to God.

Much of Jesus' teachings challenged this legalism and web-building. He reminded people of the heart of the law, the simplicity. Sometimes He intentionally broke a man-made addition to the Law, just to remind people that it was not part of what God had given them through Moses.

Jesus insulted the religious leaders for piling on so many petty regulations that it was impossible to keep them. He was basically saying the same thing you are. Right there in the Bible, a criticism of religious leaders and the hoops they demand of people.

Simple as it is supposed to be, I am not able to fulfill the simple requirement. I DO NOT trust God. Not even for a second. So that must means that he is ready to curse my useless existence for all days? I will spend the rest of my days in poverty, alone, and being used by the enemy?

It may appear that way, due to what is shown on paper. Big invisible Being with access to the whole universe/existence and a throne somewhere. But most people who have connected with God can tell you of times He did much for them. Rescues, insights, transformations of people around them. I am not trying to prove your statement wrong, but to point out that there is more to see.

A funny story -- one of my children had been bullied at school and the other student clung, so it was hard to get away from them. We prayed about it, and within a week the student transferred to another school. We ran into him years later, and his mother raved about what a change she'd seen in him since he attended the new school. It made me laugh because it was so easy. After striving and whining and feeling beaten down, all it took was a prayer.

That is just one old example and I have many -- more than one for every day across many years. It is hard to see the kingdom at work until one jumps into the middle of it.

I'll let you all know if and when that happens to me. So far it hasn't. Ever

On wanting to crush opponents, I think that just comes from having too many opponents. If society weren't so combative, and games continually putting people into a state of readiness, then there would be less need to take that stance. Imagine if everyone made choices to help their enemies (not always). Everyone would soften, and it would be a lot easier to live calmly and peaceably.

With all due respect I find that to be extremely naive. You do realize that there are a great many individuals in the world who see a 'soft and kind heart' as a sign of easy prey? As far as the physical world is concerned they are completely correct about that.

It takes a sacrificial act to initiate that peace, though. Someone has to give in first. Jesus did teach that high vulnerability, but He certainly acted out a much more assertive confrontation of injustices in society. And the Bible does not dedicate a lot of real estate to teaching how to help one's enemy.

There are times when one has to step back from teachers, and find out what God really says, more directly. The personal search for truth is important.

I am supposed to let the enemy do as they wish? I'm supposed to let the enemy walk all over me so that they can prey upon those who are weak and innocent? The very idea of that type of sacrifice disgusts me to be perfectly honest. However, I would sacrifice my life to protect an innocent life such as a child. I would also lay down my life to protect the vulnerable from evil brainwashing and other methods of corruption. That would be easy. I'd even willingly endure torture for that. Does that count for nothing?!

 

[Soothfish]

No, I wouldn't say that is true at all.

He said the Kingdom was made of such as these (little children). And we are to enter the Kingdom as little children.

It is simple enough that children can have a sufficient understanding and are, in fact, more prone to acceptance than adults, ime. No requirement that I can see to "navigate an extremely complex web of spiritual confusion" ... ?

Is it really simple to be like a child? It seems to me like it is the most difficult thing in the world to preserve, even for those who are still children. The world does everything that it possibly can to snuff the life out of you and kill your soul.

30 years later I can still remember the types of thoughts that I had as a young child. They are completely and totally different from the thoughts that I have now although they were superior in many ways.

The world is the perfect murderer. It kills your soul simply by being what the place is.

 

[Scott1979]

It kills your soul if you let it. How many times do people have to say it to you. The world is far from perfect. When you wake up every day YOU and YOU alone choose how you see it.

 

[Soothfish]

It kills your soul if you let it. How many times do people have to say it to you. The world is far from perfect. When you wake up every day YOU and YOU alone choose how you see it.

I try to delude myself whenever possible. The technical aspects of my work keep me busy and then there is reading and videogames. As long as I'm isolated just long enough to develop a self-inflicted amnesia.

That's pretty much it. There is apparently absolutely no way to be OK with what goes on.

 

[contango]

The problem is that God does absolutely nothing. He does not stop evil nor does he give his followers any power to stand against it. We are just supposed to spend 80 years on this Earth waiting to die and watching those around us lose both body and soul??!!! We are to pray for God to help us be ok with reality the way it is? To not care and to do nothing?! Only cowards can go to heaven?! You are right when you say that it makes no sense....

Life itself appears to be the purest expression of God's contempt for us!

If you regard life as just sitting around waiting to die then it's no surprise you don't see a point in it. In that regard your outlook is like that of the man given one talent who couldn't be bothered to make an effort and just buried it until his master returned.

Holding onto hatred for someone will harm you while doing nothing to them. It's as effective as drinking poison until the person you hate dies, or stabbing yourself in the hope the person you hate will bleed to death from their wounds.

 

[Scott1979]

I try to delude myself whenever possible. The technical aspects of my work keep me busy and then there is reading and videogames. As long as I'm isolated just long enough to develop a self-inflicted amnesia.

That's pretty much it. There is apparently absolutely no way to be OK with what goes on.

That's not a bad thing to do. Videogames, reading, etc are good distractions. There is no way to be ok and you shouldn't be. All a person can do is help where they can and do the best they can.

 

[Soothfish]

If you regard life as just sitting around waiting to die then it's no surprise you don't see a point in it. In that regard your outlook is like that of the man given one talent who couldn't be bothered to make an effort and just buried it until his master returned.

Holding onto hatred for someone will harm you while doing nothing to them. It's as effective as drinking poison until the person you hate dies, or stabbing yourself in the hope the person you hate will bleed to death from their wounds.

I wouldn't do nothing. I desire to annihilate my enemy. Not through violent means of course but through other means. It is not possible to simply float through life considering that there are bills to pay so that requires being active in the world at the very least.

 

[contango]

I wouldn't do nothing. I desire to annihilate my enemy. Not through violent means of course but through other means. It is not possible to simply float through life considering that there are bills to pay so that requires being active in the world at the very least.

So how will you gain anything by annihilating your enemy?

 

[Soothfish]

So how will you gain anything by annihilating your enemy?

I will have the opportunity to fulfill my purpose once the enemy is no longer standing in the way. My future children will also get to grow up in freedom and health once the enemy is crushed. Nothing in this world is possible until they are isolated and left to their own devices. As long as they have control over my life, I can't do much.

 

[Chesterton]

I will have the opportunity to fulfill my purpose once the enemy is no longer standing in the way. My future children will also get to grow up in freedom and health once the enemy is crushed. Nothing in this world is possible until they are isolated and left to their own devices. As long as they have control over my life, I can't do much.

Your only important enemy is death and Christ has already destroyed death for you. Interesting thread, but I think you just worry too much.