What is the object of the Law? Obedience or Love ???

[SabbathBlessings]

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.

The same author also said:
Circumcision is nothing uncircumcision is nothing, what matters is keeping the commandments of God. 1 Corinthians 7:19

 

[fhansen]

Hi there,

We are told there is no Law against Love.

We are told that if we knew the difference between compassion and sacrifice, we would not have condemned the innocent.

I invite discussion on this important truth.

The Law was never meant to be an instrument of control, but a message from God's heart for our good.

Yes, the Law is based on His love, in fact. But it simply cannot give that love, that righteousness; only God can do that. That's when He puts His law in our minds and writes it on our hearts, when we turn to Him in faith. That faith means union/fellowship with the Source of all goodness and love. We follow Him as we embrace and express the gift of love that He's both shown- and gives to us.

 

[Randy777]

The same author also said:
Circumcision is nothing uncircumcision is nothing, what matters is keeping the commandments of God. 1 Corinthians 7:19

He was cohesive with Christ in serving in the new way o the Spirit.

And He rebuked wickedness so he would be cohesive with Christ in these commandments.
Jesus-You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.’”

As well as abstaining from sexual immorality.

Keeping kosher, keeping a sabbath day as in the law, keeping religious festivals such as feast of tabernacles, Passover etc... and certainly all the ordinance's of sacrifices was not part of the gospel message. He preached Christ crucified and received 40 lashes minus one five times from the Jews.

I am not under law I am under Christ.

For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

He was cohesive with Christ in serving in the new way o the Spirit.

And He rebuked wickedness so he would be cohesive with Christ in these commandments.
Jesus-You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.’”

As well as abstaining from sexual immorality.

Keeping kosher, keeping a sabbath day as in the law, keeping religious festivals such as feast of tabernacles, Passover etc... and certainly all the ordinance's of sacrifices was not part of the gospel message. He preached Christ crucified and received 40 lashes minus one five times from the Jews.

I am not under law I am under Christ.

For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

Paul does not contradicted himself, instead both of these scriptures are true.

1. 1 Corinthians 7:19
   Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.
2. Galatians 5:6
   For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

Paul also stating instead of voiding the law of God through faith, we establish the law. Romans 3:31 working through love.
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. 1 John 5:3
The saints keep the commandments of God and faith in Jesus. Revelation 14:12

Worshipping in Truth and Spirit would include obeying God’s laws. It’s not our version of the truth, it’s God’s.

John 4:23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Which is what Jesus is calling us back to;
Revelation 14:7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.” Reference to Genesis 2:1-3, Exodus 20:11

 

[fhansen]

The point of the Law is love.
However, we don't love, because we are sinners, and so the Law condemns us as sinners.
For this reason no one is justified by the Law.

-CryptoLutheran

Ah but we do love, if Rom 5:5 has anything to say. We could also mention Gal 5:6 and the 1st letter of John to name other examples. Maybe not perfectly-yet- but a Christian is certainly defined to a large degree by his love. And that love opposes and overcomes sin by its nature which Rom 8:12-13 affirms must happen.

The real point, IMO, is that only God can justify man, can cause him to love as he should, IOW. We, OTOH, cannot justify ourselves, based on our attempts to adhere to the law. Can’t be done. The law convicts us that something's missing; we can't fulfill it. Man needs God, 'apart from whom he can do nothing', in order to begin to be who he was created to be, in order to love as he was created to love.

 

[com7fy8]

As God's desire is for us to be loved, He has highlighted behaviours that we need to align with for our own good. He knows what is best for us - it is not about punishment but rather about Love and good advice and the blessing that comes with it.

If His word warns of a curse or punishment, this is so it won't happen!

Yet within the Law was a standard never met except by the One who gave it.

Jesus Christ is the way to all which is good of God's love.

So relationship trumps rules and Love is the Goal.

I think we have rules that are very helpful for finding out how to love.

 

[klutedavid]

Hi there,

We are told there is no Law against Love.

We are told that if we knew the difference between compassion and sacrifice, we would not have condemned the innocent.

I invite discussion on this important truth.

The Law was never meant to be an instrument of control, but a message from God's heart for our good.

A very good question.

 

[Carl Emerson]

If His word warns of a curse or punishment, this is so it won't happen!

Jesus Christ is the way to all which is good of God's love.

I think we have rules that are very helpful for finding out how to love.

A rule can't teach you to Love - only He can.

Love is much more than doing right things.

1 Cor

13 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

 

[Krynos]

I think the law was given for many reasons. One is God showing us the magnitude of his holiness. Another is the magnitude of his love for us - why bother giving instructions if he doesn't love us. Yet another is the inability for any of us to fulfill it, the need for a Saviour.

I always thought of the 10 commandments as an instruction manual for good healthy living both in the physical and spiritual. A bit like a washing machine comes with the manufacturers instruction manual. If you want to ignore it and use it wrongly, you might have to live with the consequences...clothes that have shrunk, colour runs, a leak!

The law shows me how much God loves me and wants to peotect me from the consequences of sin. Its a beautiful picture of his love and our response is obefience.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I think the law was given for many reasons. One is God showing us the magnitude of his holiness. Another is the magnitude of his love for us - why bother giving instructions if he doesn't love us. Yet another is the inability for any of us to fulfill it, the need for a Saviour.

I always thought of the 10 commandments as an instruction manual for good healthy living both in the physical and spiritual. A bit like a washing machine comes with the manufacturers instruction manual. If you want to ignore it and use it wrongly, you might have to live with the consequences...clothes that have shrunk, colour runs, a leak!

The law shows me how much God loves me and wants to peotect me from the consequences of sin. Its a beautiful picture of his love and our response is obefience.

Regarding the 'instruction manual' - I often refer to the car analogy and that we have in the new convenant, the designer sitting in the seat beside us giving personal guidance in how and where and when to drive. Much superior to reading the manual...

 

[Krynos]

Regarding the 'instruction manual' - I often refer to the car analogy and that we have in the new convenant, the designer sitting in the seat beside us giving personal guidance in how and where and when to drive. Much superior to reading the manual...

True, I can relate to that.

 

[Randy777]

Paul does not contradicted himself, instead both of these scriptures are true.

1. 1 Corinthians 7:19
   Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.
2. Galatians 5:6
   For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

Paul also stating instead of voiding the law of God through faith, we establish the law. Romans 3:31 working through love.
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. 1 John 5:3
The saints keep the commandments of God and faith in Jesus. Revelation 14:12

Worshipping in Truth and Spirit would include obeying God’s laws. It’s not our version of the truth, it’s God’s.

John 4:23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Which is what Jesus is calling us back to;
Revelation 14:7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.” Reference to Genesis 2:1-3, Exodus 20:11

But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Keeping kosher, keeping the sabbath, keeping the Passover, cirumcision etc. etc. or the things identifying one as a Jew was not part of the gospel message Paul preached for righteousness sake. The stumbling block to Jews was Christ crucified.

We are not free to sin and Paul did rebuke wickedness. He would have emphasized obeying these commands.
You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.’

As well as abstain from sexual immorality.

Paul=>To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Keeping kosher, keeping the sabbath, keeping the Passover, cirumcision etc. etc. or the things identifying one as a Jew was not part of the gospel message Paul preached for righteousness sake. The stumbling block to Jews was Christ crucified.

We are not free to sin and Paul did rebuke wickedness. He would have emphasized obeying these commands.
You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.’

As well as abstain from sexual immorality.

Paul=>To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.

Your statements appears to be in conflict with the other. I agree with we are not free to sin, which is defined as breaking God’s laws. 1 John 3:4. The law points out sin Romans 3:20, Romans 7:7 and breaking one commandment is like breaking them all. James 2:10-12. We do not get to decide what sin it, God does and there is no scripture that says we can disobey one of the commandments of God, they came in a covenant of Ten Exodus 34:28, Exodus 20 not a covenant of nine.

We are not under the condemnation of the law if we are keeping it. If we walk in the Spirit we will be obeying God, which includes the law. John 14:15-18, Acts 5:32, Acts 2:38. The saints keep the commandments of God and faith in jesus. Revelation 14:12

 

[Randy777]

Your statements appears to be in conflict with the other. I agree with we are not free to sin, which is defined as breaking God’s laws. 1 John 3:4. The law points out sin Romans 3:20, Romans 7:7 and breaking one commandment is like breaking them all. James 2:10-12. We do not get to decide what sin it, God does and there is no scripture that says we can disobey one of the commandments of God, they came in a covenant of Ten Exodus 34:28, Exodus 20 not a covenant of nine.

We are not under the condemnation of the law if we are keeping it. If we walk in the Spirit we will be obeying God, which includes the law. John 14:15-18, Acts 5:32, Acts 2:38. The saints keep the commandments of God and faith in jesus. Revelation 14:12

We use the NT as a guide to know which commandments.
Paul clearly stated he wasn't under the law but he did see all the law as law and considered the law in judgments he made such as Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain,” and “The worker deserves his wages.”.

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

Again:Keeping kosher, keeping the sabbath, keeping the Passover, cirumcision etc. etc. or the things identifying one as a Jew was not part of the gospel message Paul preached for righteousness sake. The stumbling block to Jews was Christ crucified. Obedience to such commands was not taught by Paul nor found in his letters to the churches. The gentiles would need to have been reminded repeatedly to keep them if their was importance in the need to keep them. There is nothing in Pauls letters in that regard. Circumcision was part of the law and we know Paul stood his ground against the gentiles need for that requirement.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

We use the NT as a guide to know which commandments.
Paul clearly stated he wasn't under the law but he did see all the law as law and considered the law in judgments he made such as Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain,” and “The worker deserves his wages.”.

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

Again:Keeping kosher, keeping the sabbath, keeping the Passover, cirumcision etc. etc. or the things identifying one as a Jew was not part of the gospel message Paul preached for righteousness sake. The stumbling block to Jews was Christ crucified. Obedience to such commands was not taught by Paul nor found in his letters to the churches. The gentiles would need to have been reminded repeatedly to keep them if their was importance in the need to keep them. There is nothing in Pauls letters in that regard. Circumcision was part of the law and we know Paul stood his ground against the gentiles need for that requirement.

The Old Testament is what the apostles and Jesus was reading and teaching i.e. it is written. The New Testament does not delete the Old Testament. God wrote the New Covenant years before Jesus came and God writes His laws in our hearts and minds, not deletes them. Hebrews 8:10, Jeremiah 31:33. The Ten Commandments are repeated in the New Covenant for every day Christian living. James said you break one commandment (quoting from the Ten) you break them all James 2:10-12. Jesus came to magnify God’s laws, not destroy and Jesus tells us to keep the least of the commandment Matthew 5:19 and quoted directly from the Ten regarding thou shalt not murder or commit adultery. Matthew 5:21-30. Exodus 20:13, Exodus 20:14 Exodus 20, Exodus 34:28

You need to read Col 2:14 for context to Col 2:16-17. It’s not referring to the commandments of God, but the ordinances in the law of Moses that was handwritten, not God-written. God’s Ten Commandments was written by God alone, with His finger, kept in the ark of the covenant in the Most Holy of God’s Temple, which is also revealed in Heaven. Revelation 11:19. God’s will for us in Heaven is not different than His will for us on earth. Matthew 6:9-13 I delight to do Your will, O my God, And Your law is within my heart. Psalms 40:8. Isaiah 66:22-23

God bless.

 

[Randy777]

The Old Testament is what the apostles and Jesus was reading and teaching i.e. it is written. The New Testament does not delete the Old Testament. God wrote the New Covenant years before Jesus came and God writes His laws in our hearts and minds, not deletes them. Hebrews 8:10, Jeremiah 31:33. The Ten Commandments are repeated in the New Covenant for every day Christian living. James said you break one commandment (quoting from the Ten) you break them all James 2:10-12. Jesus came to magnify God’s laws, not destroy and Jesus tells us to keep the least of the commandment Matthew 5:19 and quoted directly from the Ten regarding thou shalt not murder or commit adultery. Matthew 5:21-30. Exodus 20:13, Exodus 20:14 Exodus 20, Exodus 34:28

You need to read Col 2:14 for context to Col 2:16-17. It’s not referring to the commandments of God, but the ordinances in the law of Moses that was handwritten, not God-written. God’s Ten Commandments was written by God alone, with His finger, kept in the ark of the covenant in the Most Holy of God’s Temple, which is also revealed in Heaven. Revelation 11:19. God’s will for us in Heaven is not different than His will for us on earth. Matthew 6:9-13 I delight to do Your will, O my God, And Your law is within my heart. Psalms 40:8. Isaiah 66:22-23

God bless.

You act like I am alone in this. You are mistaken. I am neither kosher nor do I keep a sabbath day as in the law as in a complete absence of work with even meals prepared in advanced. I have the Spirit of Christ in me. My sins have been forgiven.

I refer to Jesus as I gave His words "you know the commandments"
Mark 10:19 Luke 18:20

So you offer all the scarifies commanded in the Law?
Galatians 3:10
For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”

Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.

But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Paul=>I am not under the law
Paul=>For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

Me=>I am not under the law. I am under Christ

 

[SabbathBlessings]

You act like I am alone in this. You are mistaken. I am neither kosher nor do I keep a sabbath day as in the law as in a complete absence of work with even meals prepared in advanced. I have the Spirit of Christ in me. My sins have been forgiven.

I refer to Jesus as I gave His words "you know the commandments"
Mark 10:19 Luke 18:20

So you offer all the scarifies commanded in the Law?
Galatians 3:10
For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”

Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.

But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Paul=>I am not under the law
Paul=>For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

Me=>I am not under the law. I am under Christ

It seems like you embrace some of the commandments, but not all of them for some reason. Mark 10:19 Luke 18:20 is repeated from the Ten Commandments from Exodus 20 and there is no scripture that says the Ten Commandments are deleted. The Ten Commandments came in a covenant of Ten, not nine or one which appears the case you are trying to make, which God tells us that is not so. Exodus 34:28, Exodus 20.

Grace is not a license to sin. Romans 6. Sin is defined as breaking God’s law 1 John 3:4 and points out sin Romans 3:20, Romans 7:7 and James tells us you break one commandment you break them all quoting from the Ten Commandments. James 2:10-12. It appears you are okay with the commandments of God all except one, and that is the one God said “Remember” and uses the word “holy” and “blessed”. Once God blesses something man cannot reverse. Numbers 23:20

One is “not under the law” if they are keeping the law perfectly. When keeping the law, you are not under the condemnation of the law, because you are walking in Christ in obedience and the Spirit is given to those who obey. John 14:15-18, Acts 5:32, Acts 2:38

Also, I know you are not alone in this, the Bible never tells us to take the wide path , we should always obey the commandments of God over man. Matthew 15:3-9

We will have to agree to disagree. God bless and take care.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Just a gentle reminder that this thread is not about Sabbath keeping please.

 

[Minister Monardo]

Hi there,

We are told there is no Law against Love.

We are told that if we knew the difference between compassion and sacrifice, we would not have condemned the innocent.

I invite discussion on this important truth.

The Law was never meant to be an instrument of control, but a message from God's heart for our good.

John 14:15 If you love Me, keep My commandments.

I am perplexed by the notion of separating obedience from love.
Hebrews 5:
8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.
9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. (love Him?

We learn to love by being obedient.
1 John 4:
20 If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar;
for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he
love God whom he has not seen?
21 And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I am perplexed by the notion of separating obedience from love.

Is this not what God Himself has established....

Will not the afterlife in His Love and His Perfection and Unity harmonise with His Character in all things?

This is the way we are invited to walk now.