What is the Message of Romans 9

[misput]

If I may interject, I think God doesn't give us details about Judas because that's all primarily between Him and Judas. As human beings, we love to speculate about others, often as a way of avoiding working out our own relationship with God. So, by giving us so little information, we're in a way forced to work things out with God ourselves.

Words of wisdom!

 

[misput]

It seems to me that Paul is addressing prejudice in Rom 9 - 11, essentially saying that Israel were chosen for a purpose, but God's mercy is extended to all.

These verses are telling:

6 This does not mean that God’s word has failed, because not all who are descended from Israel are really Israel, 7 and not all who are descended from Abraham are really his children. On the contrary, “Your line of descent will be traced through Isaac.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are counted as his descendants. 9 For this is what the promise said: “I will arrive at this set time, and Sarah will have a son.”

I think he is repeating what John the Baptist said, in Matthew 3:9 -

"And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham."

No one must think that salvation comes from blood - from ethnicity, race, culture, colour of skin, etc. He is arguing against such prejudice. Salvation comes by the blood of Jesus, not our bloodline. It comes due to the grace and mercy of God and by faith - and now He chooses to have mercy on the gentiles. (The word "gentiles" means "nations"). God responds to faith, not DNA.

I do think that to go beyond this and use the scripture to create a new form of prejudice (the "elect" vs the "damned") is ironically going against the very point Paul is making in these verses. Predestination in the Calvinist sense may or may not be true, but to use this scripture to show it I think goes against what is being shown in it.

More words of wisdom!

 

[zoidar]

What gives you reason to believe it's a spiritual Israel?

Romans 9:6-8
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.” That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Romans 9:27
"Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED; "

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Your question is a Calvanistic approach to Romans 9. God does not predestine destruction for mankind. He gives everyone free will and with that free will comes the choice to have faith or no faith. Abraham was faithful as well as a long line of men and women, the remnant. The remnant carried the seed, Jesus Christ of Nazareth through their faithfulness to God.

This is completely wrong and backwards God determines who He is going to save and seeks and saves them

 

[Maria Billingsley]

This is completely wrong and backwards God determines who He is going to save and seeks and saves them

And He desires all to be saved!
1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, 7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. 1 Timothy 2

 

[Oldmantook]

And He desires all to be saved!
1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, 7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. 1 Timothy 2

Yes, since we know that God is sovereign and omnipotent, what He desires, He will accomplish. So since the scripture states he desires all men (not some men) to be saved, all men will be saved so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow - in heaven and on earth and under the earth – and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father (Phil 2:10-11).

 

[rnmomof7]

So God predestined people for destruction and we cannot question it?

Who are we to question God?

Romans 9:20
But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?"

 

[CharismaticLady]

This can be taken at least 4 different ways according to what you mean by spiritual Israel.

I am almost certain I do not agree with your summary.

Read Romans 11. Israel is the olive tree. Branches were broken off due to unbelief, and Gentiles as wild olive branches were grafted into the natural olive tree. It is one tree. When no more wild branches are grafted in, only natural branches can be grafted in at the end. The tree is now only 'spiritual' Israel. All believers.

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

I want to point out one other thing. Look at verse 22. That contradicts the false teaching of OSAS that they were "never saved to begin with." If you do not endure to the end we can be cut off too. So as 2 Peter 1 says, make your election SURE. One test is 1 John 3:21-24.

 

[rnmomof7]

Yes, since we know that God is sovereign and omnipotent, what He desires, He will accomplish. So since the scripture states he desires all men (not some men) to be saved, all men will be saved so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow - in heaven and on earth and under the earth – and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father (Phil 2:10-11).

Strong's Greek 3956: All, the whole, every kind of. Including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole.

Who is the all that God desires to be saved?

 

[Charlie24]

Read Romans 11. Israel is the olive tree. Branches were broken off due to unbelief, and Gentiles as wild olive branches were grafted into the natural olive tree. It is one tree. When no more wild branches are grafted in, only natural branches can be grafted in at the end. The tree is now only 'spiritual' Israel. All believers.

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

I want to point out one other thing. Look at verse 22. That contradicts the false teaching of OSAS that they were "never saved to begin with." If you do not endure to the end we can be cut off too. So as 2 Peter 1 says, make your election SURE. One test is 1 John 3:21-24.

We agree on OSAS!

There has always been a remnant of the natural olive tree. The spiritual branches grafted in do not make the olive tree spiritual.

Your use of "spiritual Israel" supports replacement theology. Israel has been set aside not replaced.

Whether we want to admit it or not, the church is Gods second choice. We will never be the natural branches.

 

[Oldmantook]

Strong's Greek 3956: All, the whole, every kind of. Including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole.

Who is the all that God desires to be saved?

Does not the text state all men?

 

[CharismaticLady]

We agree on OSAS!

There has always been a remnant of the natural olive tree. The spiritual branches grafted in do not make the olive tree spiritual.

Your use of "spiritual Israel" supports replacement theology. Israel has been set aside not replaced.

Whether we want to admit it or not, the church is Gods second choice. We will never be the natural branches.

I don't agree with replacement theology. There is only one tree that are God's people. At one time, Israel was considered God's people. But God didn't save the unbelieving branches, but cut them off. What is left, are truly God's people - what I call spiritual Israel, with Gentile believers grafted in and called wild olive branches. Someday soon, I believe, the tide will turn back to national Israel and they will be able to 'see' fully (which replacement theology doesn't believe) and then they will believe and will be grafted back in. And all Gentiles who didn't believe up to that last day of theirs, God will put a strong delusion on them and the rest will perish.

My study and conclusions are longer, so ask me anything I haven't covered.

 

[hedrick]

Does not the text state all men?

Yes, but a straightforward reading of Paul's various statements on salvation isn't permitted here. It would have to go in Controversial Christian Theology.

 

[Charlie24]

I don't agree with replacement theology. There is only one tree that are God's people. At one time, Israel was considered God's people. But God didn't save the unbelieving branches, but cut them off. What is left, are truly God's people - what I call spiritual Israel, with Gentile believers grafted in and called wild olive branches. Someday soon, I believe, the tide will turn back to national Israel and they will be able to 'see' fully (which replacement theology doesn't believe) and then they will believe and will be grafted back in. And all Gentiles who didn't believe up to that last day of theirs, God will put a strong delusion on them and the rest will perish.

My study and conclusions are longer, so ask me anything I haven't covered.

There are many definitions to "spiritual Israel."

Mine is the Gentiles that have been saved and adopted as the seed of Abraham, they have been grafted into the olive tree. This is a spiritual adoption.

Paul refers to these as coming from a wild olive tree. This refers to being inferior to the natural olive tree.

This is not accepted throughout the replacement theology ranks.

 

[Oldmantook]

Yes, but a straightforward reading of Paul's various statements on salvation isn't permitted here. It would have to go in Controversial Christian Theology.

Agreed, don't want to get off-track however it is deemed controversial because people want to qualify all as not really meaning all despite the plain meaning of the word. Now back to our favorite programming Romans channel 9.

 

[ABCthings]

@jimmyjimmy
Yeah, you can't actually come to God unless someone ministers to you.

 

[ABCthings]

@ rnmomof7 ?

Job did and got away with it.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

And He desires all to be saved!
1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, 7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. 1 Timothy 2

Hello MB,
We can get to these verses, but they do not change Romans9.
Your conclusions did not originate from the text.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

We agree on OSAS!

There has always been a remnant of the natural olive tree. The spiritual branches grafted in do not make the olive tree spiritual.

Your use of "spiritual Israel" supports replacement theology. Israel has been set aside not replaced.

Whether we want to admit it or not, the church is Gods second choice. We will never be the natural branches.

You cannot support your position biblically.
You think you can, but it will not hold up.

 

[CharismaticLady]

There are many definitions to "spiritual Israel."

Mine is the Gentiles that have been saved and adopted as the seed of Abraham, they have been grafted into the olive tree. This is a spiritual adoption.

Paul refers to these as coming from a wild olive tree. This refers to being inferior to the natural olive tree.

This is not accepted throughout the replacement theology ranks.

What do you call the difference between saved Israel and national Israel? I call saved Israel which also contains Gentiles as spiritual Israel. The Gentiles are grafted into Israel. Which Israel? Not national Israel.