What is the Message of Romans 9

[BobRyan]

Friends,
I had my understanding of Romans 9 challenged by another member so I thought it would be helpful to open up a discussion on this.

If we can make general comments on what we think Paul was wanting to say.
What is the main message and theme.
I think this chapter raises some issues folks struggle with.

Romans 9
Those who choose to believe and accept the promise are Israel:
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants. 9 For this is the word of promise:

That is an expansion on
Romans 2
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Even more detail given in
Romans 10
9 if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

I suggested that Judas was appointed to dishonour...

John 1:11 "He came His OWN and His OWN received Him not"
Matthew 23 "Israel How I WANTED ... but you would not"
Isaiah 5:4 "What MORE was there to do that I have not already done?"
2 Peter 3 "God is not WILLING that ANY should perish"
John 3:6 "God so LOVED the WORLD"
1 John 2:2 "He is the atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD"
1 John 4:14 "God sent His Son to be the Savior of the WORLD"

having said that - Romans 9 points out - God knows the future.

Romans 9
22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

God "Draws ALL mankind unto Him" John 12:32 but not all mankind chooses to accept.

"I STAND at the door and knock - if anyone hears My voice AND OPENS the door... I will come in" Rev 3

 

[HatGuy]

If the church was first choice, why did Christ only preach the gospel of the kingdom to the Jew? Why did he only send the 12 apostles to the house of Israel

You keep using the phrase "first choice" and "second choice", implying a Plan A and a Plan B.

There was no plan A and B.

I agree, but it looks as if you're contradicting yourself.

"Jew first" appears to be a chronological statement, not a preferential one. He came to the Jews first and God gave them opportunity first to get in on the fulfilment of the very promise He gave them. It's about timing, not preference.

Before God created man He chose a special nation that He would create. His plan was that they would draw the world to Him. He knew they would fail, and He knew the gentile world would believe and carry out that task.

Where does Jesus and his death and resurrection fall into this scheme?

The Christian orthodox scheme claims that Jesus himself is the fulfillment of Israel's mission. Remember the prophecy over Jesus' life by Simeon? Luke 2:

"29 Lord, you now dismiss your servant in peace, according to
your word,
30 because my eyes have seen your salvation,
31 which you have prepared before the face of all people,
32 a light for revelation to the Gentiles, and the glory of your
people Israel."

Again, God comes to make ONE MAN out of the two. Ephesians 2:

13 But now in Christ Jesus, you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace. He made the two groups one by destroying the wall of hostility that divided them 15 when he abolished the law of commandments and regulations in his flesh. He did this to create in himself one new person out of the two, in this way making peace. 16 And he did this to reconcile both to God in one body through the cross by putting the hostility to death on it. 17 He also came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

It's clear that the point is not for two separate people but for only one, gentiles and Jews, as ONE people under ONE king. There is nothing about a first or secondary choice, but everything about a fulfilment of a plan from the beginning. The fact that God's intention is to break down prejudice and exclusive treatment and claim that his special possession is whoever he decides to have mercy on is exactly what got the Jews' backs up, who believed salvation was by blood and heritage, and not by faith, and is what Roman's 9 is all about.

But His chosen people were His first choice. They will yet proclaim the gospel of Christ to the world in the Millennium. As Paul said, he has not cast His people away.

Again, your use of the phrase 'first choice' implies a plan A and plan B.

God's "chosen people" is the Church, made up of Jews and Gentiles, which Peter, the Jew, goes to great lengths to show in 1 Peter - adopting all the exclusive language of Israel and projecting it onto the Church.

"9 But you [the Church] are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, the people who are God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. 10 At one time you were not a people, but now you are the people of God. At one time you were not shown mercy, but now you have been shown mercy."

He makes no claim of a secondary chosen, a secondary priesthood, and a secondary nation. There is only one people: the Church.

 

[Charlie24]

You keep using the phrase "first choice" and "second choice", implying a Plan A and a Plan B.


I agree, but it looks as if you're contradicting yourself.

"Jew first" appears to be a chronological statement, not a preferential one. He came to the Jews first and God gave them opportunity first to get in on the fulfilment of the very promise He gave them. It's about timing, not preference.


Where does Jesus and his death and resurrection fall into this scheme?

The Christian orthodox scheme claims that Jesus himself is the fulfillment of Israel's mission. Remember the prophecy over Jesus' life by Simeon? Luke 2:

"29 Lord, you now dismiss your servant in peace, according to
your word,
30 because my eyes have seen your salvation,
31 which you have prepared before the face of all people,
32 a light for revelation to the Gentiles, and the glory of your
people Israel."

Again, God comes to make ONE MAN out of the two. Ephesians 2:

13 But now in Christ Jesus, you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace. He made the two groups one by destroying the wall of hostility that divided them 15 when he abolished the law of commandments and regulations in his flesh. He did this to create in himself one new person out of the two, in this way making peace. 16 And he did this to reconcile both to God in one body through the cross by putting the hostility to death on it. 17 He also came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

It's clear that the point is not for two separate people but for only one, gentiles and Jews, as ONE people under ONE king. There is nothing about a first or secondary choice, but everything about a fulfilment of a plan from the beginning. The fact that God's intention is to break down prejudice and exclusive treatment and claim that his special possession is whoever he decides to have mercy on is exactly what got the Jews' backs up, who believed salvation was by blood and heritage, and not by faith, and is what Roman's 9 is all about.


Again, your use of the phrase 'first choice' implies a plan A and plan B.

God's "chosen people" is the Church, made up of Jews and Gentiles, which Peter, the Jew, goes to great lengths to show in 1 Peter - adopting all the exclusive language of Israel and projecting it onto the Church.

"9 But you [the Church] are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, the people who are God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. 10 At one time you were not a people, but now you are the people of God. At one time you were not shown mercy, but now you have been shown mercy."

He makes no claim of a secondary chosen, a secondary priesthood, and a secondary nation. There is only one people: the Church.

Yes, the church is a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, and peculiar people.

But the church was not chosen not bear the Law of Moses when no other law was in the world.

The church was not chosen as the womb from which our Saviour came.

And the church will not inherit the land promised to Abraham. That is reserved for the physical bloodline of Abraham.

 

[Carl Emerson]

As you folks always do, you have twisted scripture to fit a false doctrine. It says no such thing.

If the church was first choice, why did Christ only preach the gospel of the kingdom to the Jew? Why did he only send the 12 apostles to the house of Israel?

Why did Paul say salvation is to the Jew first and also to the gentile?

Why did Paul say this in Rom. 11:11?
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Salvation came to the Gentile, and the church was born after the Jews rejected it.

The Jews were chosen first to evangelize the world, they refused, and God chose the gentile church SECOND to evangelize the world.

I find it hard to understand why anyone would claim that the church was born a Gentile Church when the leaders were Jewish.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Romans 9
Those who choose to believe and accept the promise are Israel:
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants. 9 For this is the word of promise:

That is an expansion on
Romans 2
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Even more detail given in
Romans 10
9 if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.



John 1:11 "He came His OWN and His OWN received Him not"
Matthew 23 "Israel How I WANTED ... but you would not"
Isaiah 5:4 "What MORE was there to do that I have not already done?"
2 Peter 3 "God is not WILLING that ANY should perish"
John 3:6 "God so LOVED the WORLD"
1 John 2:2 "He is the atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD"
1 John 4:14 "God sent His Son to be the Savior of the WORLD"

having said that - Romans 9 points out - God knows the future.

Romans 9
22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

God "Draws ALL mankind unto Him" John 12:32 but not all mankind chooses to accept.

"I STAND at the door and knock - if anyone hears My voice AND OPENS the door... I will come in" Rev 3

You didn't comment on if you agree Judas was chosen for dishonour.

 

[Charlie24]

I find it hard to understand why anyone would claim that the church was born a Gentile Church when the leaders were Jewish.

There is only one church, made up of Jews and Gentiles. After the Jews rejected Christ the apostles started the church in Jerusalem.

No Gentiles were allowed, according to the Jews they couldn't be saved, until Peter had the dream of the clean and the unclean. Then he was sent to Cornelius to preach to him and his family and friends. When the Holy Spirit fell on them the Jews with Peter were astonished that the Gentiles received the Holy Spirit and saved.

This is actually when the Gentiles were added to the church in Gods eyes, but not the Jews. It took time for the Jews to figure all this out.

Meanwhile Paul was on his first missionary journey and building a Gentile church after the Jews would not hear his message.

This is what I was referring to as the Gentile church.

There is not a Jewish church and a Gentile church there is only one church. But it took the Jews quite a while to work this out. Paul already had it figured out because he had been given the New Covenant straight from Christ. Paul was light years ahead of the apostles in Gods plan.

 

[Carl Emerson]

There is only one church, made up of Jews and Gentiles. After the Jews rejected Christ the apostles started the church in Jerusalem.

No Gentiles were allowed, according to the Jews they couldn't be saved, until Peter had the dream of the clean and the unclean. Then he was sent to Cornelius to preach to him and his family and friends. When the Holy Spirit fell on them the Jews with Peter were astonished that the Gentiles received the Holy Spirit and saved.

This is actually when the Gentiles were added to the church in Gods eyes, but not the Jews. It took time for the Jews to figure all this out.

Meanwhile Paul was on his first missionary journey and building a Gentile church after the Jews would not hear his message.

This is what I was referring to as the Gentile church.

There is not a Jewish church and a Gentile church there is only one church. But it took the Jews quite a while to work this out. Paul already had it figured out because he had been given the New Covenant straight from Christ. Paul was light years ahead of the apostles in Gods plan.

Yes this is my take as well, thanks for spelling it out.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Charlie24,

Hello C24,
let's see what is on your mind.

As you folks always do, you have twisted scripture to fit a false doctrine. It says no such thing.

And yet, that is exactly what is taught in Eph1-3...all three Chapters teach it clearly and unmistakably.
In the first 3 chapters Paul wrote this;
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
and this;
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
eph2
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

let's see why you believe you see something else

[QUOTE]If the church was first choice, why did Christ only preach the gospel of the kingdom to the Jew? Why did he only send the 12 apostles to the house of Israel?[/QUOTE]

Good questionC24, Revelation of truth is progressive. national Israel was entrusted with the written word of God .at first.
Romans 3 King James Version (KJV)
3 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

Why did Paul say salvation is to the Jew first and also to the gentile?

having the word of God, they were the only ones who knew the christ was going to come, but something happened;
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
and again;
Acts13
45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.

46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Why did Paul say this in Rom. 11:11?
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Salvation came to the Gentile, and the church was born after the Jews rejected it.

The Jews were chosen first to evangelize the world, they refused, and God chose the gentile church SECOND to evangelize the world.

Again, God progressively reveals truth.
Why did the first Adam , not obey and live perfectly? So the last Adam could come and accomplish redemption.
does that help a bit C24?

 

[Charlie24]

Charlie24,

Hello C24,
let's see what is on your mind.


And yet, that is exactly what is taught in Eph1-3...all three Chapters teach it clearly and unmistakably.
In the first 3 chapters Paul wrote this;
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
and this;
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
eph2
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

let's see why you believe you see something else

[QUOTE]If the church was first choice, why did Christ only preach the gospel of the kingdom to the Jew? Why did he only send the 12 apostles to the house of Israel?

Good questionC24, Revelation of truth is progressive. national Israel was entrusted with the written word of God .at first.
Romans 3 King James Version (KJV)
3 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.


having the word of God, they were the only ones who knew the christ was going to come, but something happened;
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
and again;
Acts13
45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.

46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.




Again, God progressively reveals truth.
Why did the first Adam , not obey and live perfectly? So the last Adam could come and accomplish redemption.
does that help a bit C24?[/QUOTE]

No, I'm afraid it doesn't help.

Answer me a question! In Ezekiel 40-49 God gives him a vision into the future. God shows him the future temple with all the measurements, and then shows him the borders of the land divided among he 12 tribes. This is the land mass God promised to Abraham.

If the church has replaced Israel, why is not this land divided among the church instead of the 12 tribes of Israel?

This is assuming of course, the church has not been divided into 12 tribes with the same names as Israel.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Good questionC24, Revelation of truth is progressive. national Israel was entrusted with the written word of God .at first.
Romans 3 King James Version (KJV)
3 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.


having the word of God, they were the only ones who knew the christ was going to come, but something happened;
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
and again;
Acts13
45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.

46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.




Again, God progressively reveals truth.
Why did the first Adam , not obey and live perfectly? So the last Adam could come and accomplish redemption.
does that help a bit C24?

No, I'm afraid it doesn't help.

Answer me a question! In Ezekiel 40-49 God gives him a vision into the future. God shows him the future temple with all the measurements, and then shows him the borders of the land divided among he 12 tribes. This is the land mass God promised to Abraham.

If the church has replaced Israel, why is not this land divided among the church instead of the 12 tribes of Israel?

This is assuming of course, the church has not been divided into 12 tribes with the same names as Israel.[/QUOTE]
Ezekiels vision is of the Church that was the temple that was to be built and yet future from when Ezekiel wrote, in fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant

There is no other physical temple to be built, the church is the final temple, Ezekiels vision tries to allude to it
Ezk34-the Good Shepherd

Ezk 36- the New Covenant

Ezk37- can these bones live?

Ezk38-
23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the Lord.

Ezk39, the enemies of God surround the church-
7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, the Holy One in Israel.

jesus builds His Holy temple;
3 And it was according to the appearance of the vision which I saw, even according to the vision that I saw when I came to destroy the city: and the visions were like the vision that I saw by the river Chebar; and I fell upon my face.

4 And the glory of the Lord came into the house by the way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east.

5 So the spirit took me up, and brought me into the inner court; and, behold, the glory of the Lord filled the house.

6 And I heard him speaking unto me out of the house; and the man stood by me.

7 And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.

 

[BobRyan]

You didn't comment on if you agree Judas was chosen for dishonour.

I did - I show the Bible saying that nobody is chosen for dishonor... rather "God is not WILLING that any should perish". 2 Peter 3. How is that not answering??

No text says "So and so was chosen for dishonor"

Rom 9
20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

 

[Gwendolynz]

Friends,

I had my understanding of Romans 9 challenged by another member so I thought it would be helpful to open up a discussion on this.

If we can make general comments on what we think Paul was wanting to say.

What is the main message and theme.

I think this chapter raises some issues folks struggle with.

Due to my circumstances, for the longest time I felt that Romans 9:21 meant that I had been made to fuel the fires of Hell.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Friends,

I had my understanding of Romans 9 challenged by another member so I thought it would be helpful to open up a discussion on this.

If we can make general comments on what we think Paul was wanting to say.

What is the main message and theme.

I think this chapter raises some issues folks struggle with.

This passage was obviously Paul's personal calling, it's obvious because of the contents of Acts Chapter 1 where Jesus states that the times that the Father has set in His power (i.e. the restoration of Israel) is none of their business, but they need to go preach the gospel. Paul is stating this, because this is a time God has set in His power, but beyond that, it's not really relevant until it actually comes to pass.

(The point of Romans 9 is so we are not ignorant, since most Christians are not Jewish by blood, and it will not relate to their personal callings)

 

[Carl Emerson]

So what does the vessel represent in Rom 8:21 ?

 

[Mark Quayle]

It seems to me that Paul is addressing prejudice in Rom 9 - 11, essentially saying that Israel were chosen for a purpose, but God's mercy is extended to all.

These verses are telling:

6 This does not mean that God’s word has failed, because not all who are descended from Israel are really Israel, 7 and not all who are descended from Abraham are really his children. On the contrary, “Your line of descent will be traced through Isaac.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are counted as his descendants. 9 For this is what the promise said: “I will arrive at this set time, and Sarah will have a son.”

I think he is repeating what John the Baptist said, in Matthew 3:9 -

"And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham."

No one must think that salvation comes from blood - from ethnicity, race, culture, colour of skin, etc. He is arguing against such prejudice. Salvation comes by the blood of Jesus, not our bloodline. It comes due to the grace and mercy of God and by faith - and now He chooses to have mercy on the gentiles. (The word "gentiles" means "nations"). God responds to faith, not DNA.

I do think that to go beyond this and use the scripture to create a new form of prejudice (the "elect" vs the "damned") is ironically going against the very point Paul is making in these verses. Predestination in the Calvinist sense may or may not be true, but to use this scripture to show it I think goes against what is being shown in it.

I don't mean to undo what you say here; Reformed Theology (or Calvinism, as some like to call it) does not seek to be proven by Scripture but to demonstrate in Scripture what has been ignored (or worse) by Christendom. Romans 9 does not defend Calvinism. It only tells the truth, which is what Calvinism tries to do. Romans 9 makes some bald statements that, in spite of the theme and focus of the context cannot be ignored. Yes it is about Israel and Gentiles. That does not change the obvious statements concerning God's work being his alone, regardless of our take or preference or opinion or even our integrity of decision. God does what he does, and who are we to question his motives or justice?

Do we honestly think this passage allows for us to think that God has respect for us as some sort of peers, with integral worth as living beings, apart from him?

Sorry. Maybe that isn't the point of the passage, but it is hard to ignore what is going on in Christian circles concerning free will these days. Romans 9 sets it straight.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

So what does the vessel represent in Rom 8:21 ?

19 For the earnest expectation of the creation waiteth for the revealing of the sons of God.


20 For the creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but by reason of him who subjected it, in hope

21 that the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the children of God.


22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

I think you mean what is translated as the creation? The Romans 8 passage relates to the restoration of all things, the message of Romans 9 is about the restoration of the nation of Israel through the Gentile converts through faith.

Or so it seems anyway.

Thanks for the question.

 

[Hawkins]

Roman 9 is very critical in defining the difference between Law and covenants, both are facilitating freewill which will inevitably cause a division even within God's people Israel.

Law is designed for the angels to have a choice, such that they will divide with 1/3 failed and sided with Satan. However when Law applied, no men can pass the final judgment. Thus humans need to be judged by another mean which is the covenants granted through the blood of Jesus Christ. With God's covenants in place, less than 1/3 humans will be saved thus through the narrow gate.

What Christ earned is actually a subjective judgment which replaced the objective judgment of Law. Law is usually a clear cut without taking everything into consideration. Law also relies heavily on the witnessing of one's past behavior. To put it another way, Law can do nothing if you have an evil heart but before you realize it into actions.

God on the other hand, can do a more thorough and fair judgment which Law can hardly achieve. God not only can judge one's actions as Law does, but also can judge hearts. He not only can judge one's past as Law does, but also can judge one's future to say that "Jacob I love but Esau I hate".

Not only so, God can judge with factors which may be beyond humans' understanding. That's why the bottom line "God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy", and "who are you, a human being, to talk back to God". That's the nature of what a subjective judgment could be.

 

[Carl Emerson]

19 For the earnest expectation of the creation waiteth for the revealing of the sons of God.


20 For the creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but by reason of him who subjected it, in hope

21 that the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the children of God.


22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

I think you mean what is translated as the creation? The Romans 8 passage relates to the restoration of all things, the message of Romans 9 is about the restoration of the nation of Israel through the Gentile converts through faith.

Or so it seems anyway.

Thanks for the question.

My mistake sorry...

I meant Rom 9:21 the reference to vessel is what or whom ???

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Hawkins,

Roman 9 is very critical in defining the difference between Law and covenants, both are facilitating freewill which will inevitably cause a division even within God's people Israel.

Sorry but this lacks any biblical support.
Freewill is a myth.

Law is designed for the angels to have a choice

,

Can you show any verse to support this?

 

[Peter J Barban]

My mistake sorry...

I meant Rom 9:21 the reference to vessel is what or whom ???

Vessels refer to everyone, both Jews and Gentiles.