What is the Message of Romans 9

[Carl Emerson]

Friends,

I had my understanding of Romans 9 challenged by another member so I thought it would be helpful to open up a discussion on this.

If we can make general comments on what we think Paul was wanting to say.

What is the main message and theme.

I think this chapter raises some issues folks struggle with.

 

[Lost4words]

It can very difficult to interpret what he is saying. I agree with St Peter:

2 Peter 3:15-16
15 And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Yes good point, however as scripture interprets scripture, I expect understanding comes from a rounded knowledge of the whole Bible and not some fancy theology that has a human agenda.

If we don't get a dialogue going on this I will give my take on what come to me as I read each bunch of verses.

 

[Charlie24]

Friends,

I had my understanding of Romans 9 challenged by another member so I thought it would be helpful to open up a discussion on this.

If we can make general comments on what we think Paul was wanting to say.

What is the main message and theme.

I think this chapter raises some issues folks struggle with.

Up to chapter 9 Paul has pointed out the need of Christ, how accept Christ, and how to order your life in Christ.

Now in chapter 9 he begins to deal with the Jews according there position in Christ.

Seeing that the Jews have rejected the Gospel of Paul, he now addresses the question asked by many, have the Jews been excluded from the plan of God?

I believe chapters 9-11 must be taken together to understand the answer to this question.

I also see in Rom. 9-11 the underlying argument against predestination as the Calvinists teach it. But I'm pretty sure Paul was not trying to communicate this.

 

[jacks]

I think it is saying that Gentiles and not just Jews can inherit the kingdom of God. Kind of summed up in the last to verses. Belief and faith in Jesus is what is required not lineage or the Law.

30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who followed not after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith: 31 but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, did not arrive at [that] law.

32 Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by works. They stumbled at the stone of stumbling; 33 even as it is written, Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence: And he that believeth on him shall not be put to shame.

 

[cordie]

Yes good point, however as scripture interprets scripture, I expect understanding comes from a rounded knowledge of the whole Bible and not some fancy theology that has a human agenda.

If we don't get a dialogue going on this I will give my take on what come to me as I read each bunch of verses.

This is my interpretation. God ran into some stubborness with the early Israelites. O boy you got to work at it. But then one could say the same thing today. E.g. all of us have read of the miracles in the Bible but where are the miracles today. Why does not God strike down dictators, cure diseases, stop wars & plagues? Hard to convince us He's omnipotent. Actually this is the theme. If God did not target the gentiles at the time of Christ, the gentiles would have been left out. Only a small remnant of humanity then had access to God. Hence this is where Christ's role comes in to be a light to the gentiles. But as Paul says lines hence all Israel will be saved. Jewish people have their own staircase to salvation. Why? Because it is the very blindness that the Creator has settled on them in order to capture the other remnants of humanity. Picture this: in the centuries since Christ, the Jewish people have faced challenge after challenge but they just keep on going. The word "chosen" translates to "burden". They are the people of a burden. I.e. always facing & persevering through challenges. In a lot of those instances, the burden means carrying on the gospel. I could see this in my late college roommate. Once afflicted by disease she became a voice for the down-trodden, the disabled, those lacking handicapped access, the homeless. She was afflicted with great disease but through her kindness & music kept persevering to lift up the hearts of other people. I.e. she was chosen. This was her burden to finish out her life & that is her legacy.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Paul obviously had a soft spot for his own people. But they are the same nation that consistently rejected God, starting in the desert on the way to the Promised Land. They rejected the Lord Jesus. Their rebellion eventually brought about the end of Israel as a nation, although Jews lived there continually after Rome destroyed it.

I see it this way. God exposed the true heart of mankind through the nation of Israel. In spite of the best possible covenant, the greatest promises and the direst threats, Israel went its own way. Briefly, there was a golden age when idolatry was rooted out. It did not last. I do not believe that anyone else would have behaved differently. The sinful nature is ubiquitous. And that, to me, is the point of Romans 9

The Jews sought to establish their own righteousness, even under the heel of Greece and Roman occupations. They added all kinds of conditions to God's law and made those conditions to overrule the Law. Reminds me of Catholicism. Now the New Covenant is not based on Law but on grace. God's chosen are not a race by descent but those who trace their ancestry, so to speak, to Christ as the "Last Adam".

In modern applications, we might see a parallel with those who think that Christianity is somehow handed down from parents to child, as long as the correct religious observances are kept. The slow death of the Anglican church rather disproves this theory.

 

[Carl Emerson]

OK some excellent responses...

I agree that Romans 9-11 is a more complete way to approach this aspect of Pauls message but I didn't want to bit off such a large chunk at this stage.

OK let's look more closely at verses in bunches.

1-5 Pauls Jewishness shows... intense love for his own people honoured with the responsibility of receiving instruction from God and carrying the blood line to His Son Jesus Christ who is God over all...

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Yes good point, however as scripture interprets scripture, I expect understanding comes from a rounded knowledge of the whole Bible and not some fancy theology that has a human agenda.

If we don't get a dialogue going on this I will give my take on what come to me as I read each bunch of verses.

The heart of His argument is summed up here;
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Carl, In explaining why israel failed to attain God's righteousness, he points out that God's purpose will not be frus=trated because of the election of grace.

Elect Jew and Gentile as one new man on equal footing In Christ.
God's eternal purpose will not be thwarted, he has insured it.

Earlier he set it up by using two different words;
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham,[natural seed, sperma} are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh,[sperma] these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.[teknon]

 

[redleghunter]

Up to chapter 9 Paul has pointed out the need of Christ, how accept Christ, and how to order your life in Christ.

Now in chapter 9 he begins to deal with the Jews according there position in Christ.

Seeing that the Jews have rejected the Gospel of Paul, he now addresses the question asked by many, have the Jews been excluded from the plan of God?

I believe chapters 9-11 must be taken together to understand the answer to this question.

I also see in Rom. 9-11 the underlying argument against predestination as the Calvinists teach it. But I'm pretty sure Paul was not trying to communicate this.

Romans 9-11 indeed addresses how God does choose according to His will and purpose. That is a major theme throughout the Bible, Old and New Testament.

"For the LORD of hosts has planned, and who can frustrate it? And as for His stretched-out hand, who can turn it back?" (Isaiah 14:27)

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Yes good point, however as scripture interprets scripture, I expect understanding comes from a rounded knowledge of the whole Bible and not some fancy theology that has a human agenda.

If we don't get a dialogue going on this I will give my take on what come to me as I read each bunch of verses.

Hi, Carl. Thanks for opening up a discussion of Romans 9. Any time we can have a better grasp of what God wants to communicate to us in His Word, the better off we, the Church, and the world, are. It's vital!

I fully agree that the best way to understand one text is by having a good working knowledge of the entire Bible. Hopefully those who participate will bring just that to the discussion so that it will be fruitful.

Speaking of having a fruitful discussion, I noticed that you've used some loaded terms like, "fancy theology" and "human agenda" in post #3. I'm sure your intentions weren't malicious, but nonetheless, language like that poisons the well, making honest debate more difficult. Do you see my point?

Looking forward to digging into His Word and working through this text, for our edification, and His glory.

JJ

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I see it this way. God exposed the true heart of mankind through the nation of Israel. In spite of the best possible covenant, the greatest promises and the direst threats, Israel went its own way. Briefly, there was a golden age when idolatry was rooted out. It did not last. I do not believe that anyone else would have behaved differently. The sinful nature is ubiquitous.

Hi, Pete.

You've raised a good point above. The history of Israel is a demonstration of fallen men trying to live in obedience to God's Law. Unfortunately, the Church, in large part, has failed to understand and learn from this.

JJ

 

[Aussie Pete]

Hi, Pete.

You've raised a good point above. The history of Israel is a demonstration of fallen men trying to live in obedience to God's Law. Unfortunately, the Church, in large part, has failed to understand and learn from this.

JJ

You got that 100% correct.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

"What is the message of Romans 9?"

The Apostle Paul's writings focus often on the contrast between Gospel and Works. Here he pits Works against, "Him who calls". God's elect are those whom He has called, not those who have worked to make themselves so.

God's children are His because He has called them to be so.


Romans 9:11

though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— (ESV)

 

[LoveofTruth]

Friends,

I had my understanding of Romans 9 challenged by another member so I thought it would be helpful to open up a discussion on this.

If we can make general comments on what we think Paul was wanting to say.

What is the main message and theme.

I think this chapter raises some issues folks struggle with.

Faith over works as it is summed up in these verses

Romans 9:30. What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.31. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.32. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;”

 

[HatGuy]

Friends,

I had my understanding of Romans 9 challenged by another member so I thought it would be helpful to open up a discussion on this.

If we can make general comments on what we think Paul was wanting to say.

What is the main message and theme.

I think this chapter raises some issues folks struggle with.

It seems to me that Paul is addressing prejudice in Rom 9 - 11, essentially saying that Israel were chosen for a purpose, but God's mercy is extended to all.

These verses are telling:

6 This does not mean that God’s word has failed, because not all who are descended from Israel are really Israel, 7 and not all who are descended from Abraham are really his children. On the contrary, “Your line of descent will be traced through Isaac.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are counted as his descendants. 9 For this is what the promise said: “I will arrive at this set time, and Sarah will have a son.”

I think he is repeating what John the Baptist said, in Matthew 3:9 -

"And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham."

No one must think that salvation comes from blood - from ethnicity, race, culture, colour of skin, etc. He is arguing against such prejudice. Salvation comes by the blood of Jesus, not our bloodline. It comes due to the grace and mercy of God and by faith - and now He chooses to have mercy on the gentiles. (The word "gentiles" means "nations"). God responds to faith, not DNA.

I do think that to go beyond this and use the scripture to create a new form of prejudice (the "elect" vs the "damned") is ironically going against the very point Paul is making in these verses. Predestination in the Calvinist sense may or may not be true, but to use this scripture to show it I think goes against what is being shown in it.

 

[paul1149]

Earlier he set it up by using two different words;
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham,[natural seed, sperma} are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh,[sperma] these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.[teknon]

I'm not clear what the point is here. He uses both sperma and teknon, for seed and children respectively, regarding both the children of the flesh and of the promise?

Edit: Your take on v 8 seems to be wrong.
8 That is, They which are the children [teknon] of the flesh, these are not the children [teknon] of God: but the children [teknon again] of the promise are counted for the seed [sperma] (Mounce interlinear; Textus R. Stephanus)

 

[Carl Emerson]

The heart of His argument is summed up here;
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Carl, In explaining why israel failed to attain God's righteousness, he points out that God's purpose will not be frus=trated because of the election of grace.

Elect Jew and Gentile as one new man on equal footing In Christ.
God's eternal purpose will not be thwarted, he has insured it.

Earlier he set it up by using two different words;
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham,[natural seed, sperma} are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh,[sperma] these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.[teknon]

Yes... this is my understanding as well...

 

[Carl Emerson]

OK now here is the controversial bit.

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion,b but on God, who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills....
21Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory...

I suggested that Judas was appointed to dishonour...

Now... I can hear a chorus of voices saying 'naughty naughty' for thinking that...

However I think that our theology to a large degree is a reflection of our concept of God.

Paul had a radical encounter with Him which would have left deep impressions of His Holiness, Awe, Otherness...

I have had several encounters that have deeply impressed on me the Fear of Him, the Purity of Him, He is the Final Word...

He has the prerogative to do as He wills and we are not to judge.

When you have encounters of this nature you have less issue embracing the God of the OT with the Jesus of the NT.

This intense 'Terrible Love' is our Saviour without compromise, without error, both gentle and unyeilding, forever Just.

Putting it out there...

Comments please.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Hi, Carl. Thanks for opening up a discussion of Romans 9. Any time we can have a better grasp of what God wants to communicate to us in His Word, the better off we, the Church, and the world, are. It's vital!

I fully agree that the best way to understand one text is by having a good working knowledge of the entire Bible. Hopefully those who participate will bring just that to the discussion so that it will be fruitful.

Speaking of having a fruitful discussion, I noticed that you've used some loaded terms like, "fancy theology" and "human agenda" in post #3. I'm sure your intentions weren't malicious, but nonetheless, language like that poisons the well, making honest debate more difficult. Do you see my point?

Looking forward to digging into His Word and working through this text, for our edification, and His glory.

JJ

Yes... to be honest I have got some 'fire in my belly' but this needs to be tempered with prudence as you suggest. At the same time we have the example of Jesus who didn't mince words... Trying to get it right...