What is the Message of Romans 9

[CharismaticLady]

Yes... I said the consequences of the Law as He took the curse of the Law on Himself for us.

Again, I may be overstepping here as I haven't read the thread, but the law isn't needed if Jesus has taken away our sin. It is far more than the consequences of the Law that Jesus cured us from. It was sin itself from Adam. 1 John 3:5; John 8:34-36; Romans 6:2

 

[CharismaticLady]

I don't see anything in the context that explains the symbol, so we'll have to depend upon the apparent meaning. The most direct seems to be ending the authority of the Temple. This is expressed differently in John, in which Jesus is shown as the new temple. The purpose of the Temple was at least twofold: approaching God and forgiveness of sins. Both are taken over by Jesus.

By implication you could say that the authority of the priests were ended, since they are sort of agents of the Temple.

But the covenant is something else. Ultimately it's God's commitment to his people. The Temple is one manifestation of it, but that covenant existed before the Temple. So I don't see that this implies an end to the covenant.

Similarly, the Law existed before the Temple. However you interpret Paul (and I think he says that one function of the Law has been taken over by Christ, but not that it's abolished), I don't think this passage talks about ending the Law.

There were two covenants. The Old Covenant of the Ten Commandments given on Mt. Sinai and ended at the last sacrifice- Jesus, and the New Covenant that started with the Resurrection and given on the Day of Pentecost. It will run to the second coming. Jesus is always the beginning and the end of the covenants.

Nothing ceases inside a covenant. (Not a jot or a tittle will be removed until all is fulfilled.)

 

[Carl Emerson]

CharismaticLady

We have a number of Jews coming to faith presently. Does this mean there is an overlap?

 

[CharismaticLady]

We have a number of Jews coming to faith presently. Does this mean there is an overlap?

They are only partially blinded, not fully blinded. But when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, all blindness will be lifted.

 

[Charlie24]

The question is - is He doing it now?

No, nothing has changed from your last visit to Israel and will not change until the Day of Jacobs Trouble..

The Jews are a stiffnecked people and the pride of the Law and the fact that Paul tells us that Israel has been partially blinded until the church has run its course.

Then will God deal with His chosen people. The antichrist will be raised up for this specific task. The majority of the world will join in to finally destroy this hated people.

At this time the Eastern sky will split and King of Kings and Lord of Lords will save Israel from a certain inhalation.

Christ came the first to be spit on and beaten but this time He comes back as the Man of War. This time He will be what Israel looked for at His first advent.

As we read in Rev., he will destroy the antichrist and his complete armies with him.

Zech. tells us that they shall see the One whom they pierced/crucified and they will mourn as one who mourns for their only child.

Israel will finally see that Jesus is the Christ and they will worship in deep sorrow.

 

[CharismaticLady]

church has run its course

No, only the remaining Gentiles come into the Church, then only Jews will come into the Church. There is only one Church, the Bride of Christ.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Do you expect that transition you describe to be that hard and fast.

What happens to the children of Gentiles will there be no hope for them?

 

[Charlie24]

No, only the remaining Gentiles come into the Church, then only Jews will come into the Church. There is only one Church, the Bride of Christ.

No, only the remaining Gentiles come into the Church, then only Jews will come into the Church. There is only one Church, the Bride of Christ.

The true church is all who have accepted Christ as their Saviour. Both Jew and Gentile, and from all denominations and from one corner of the earth to the other.

There has always been a remnant of saved Jews. They will be and are a part of the true church.

All the rest of Israel who are saved during the tribulation are not a part of the church.

But all the Jews regardless of when they we saved will have special honor before man and God because they were the original bearers of the Law and the womb from where our Saviour came.

Yes, they dropped the ball and they dropped it hard. But they will receive all that God originally promised.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Do you expect that transition you describe to be that hard and fast.

What happens to the children of Gentiles will there be no hope for them?

"You and your household." That would include small children.

All other Gentiles will have a strong delusion put on them to follow after the Antichrist. Lukewarm Christians will go through the Great Tribulation and have to finally make a stand.

The true church is all who have accepted Christ as their Saviour. Both Jew and Gentile, and from all denominations and from one corner of the earth to the other.

There has always been a remnant of saved Jews. They will be and are a part of the true church.

All the rest of Israel who are saved during the tribulation are not a part of the church.

But all the Jews regardless of when they we saved will have special honor before man and God because they were the original bearers of the Law and the womb from where our Saviour came.

Yes, they dropped the ball and they dropped it hard. But they will receive all that God originally promised.

The Jews at the end will be accepting Christ as their Savior too. There is not another Savior for them.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Good night all

 

[Charlie24]

"You and your household." That would include small children.

All other Gentiles will have a strong delusion put on them to follow after the Antichrist. Lukewarm Christians will go through the Great Tribulation and have to finally make a stand.


The Jews at the end will be accepting Christ as their Savior too. There is not another Savior for them.

There is only one gospel and only one Saviour for both the Gentile and the Jew.

 

[expos4ever]

The key point about Romans 9 is that it cannot be generalized into an argument in favour of pre-destination. More specifically, Paul is arguing that, yes, God hardened Israel for a specific reason in service of His grand plan of redemption. But this is an historical argument - it is about what God has done in history. It certainly cannot be taken as a timeless theology of limited atonement.

 

[CharismaticLady]

The true church is all who have accepted Christ as their Saviour. Both Jew and Gentile, and from all denominations and from one corner of the earth to the other.

There has always been a remnant of saved Jews. They will be and are a part of the true church.

All the rest of Israel who are saved during the tribulation are not a part of the church.

But all the Jews regardless of when they we saved will have special honor before man and God because they were the original bearers of the Law and the womb from where our Saviour came.

Yes, they dropped the ball and they dropped it hard. But they will receive all that God originally promised.

Think of it this way. Jesus came to save Israel. Gentile Christians became part of Spiritual Israel, and national Israel was partially blinded until the last number of Gentiles came into Spiritual Israel; then all national Israel will become Spiritual Israel.

 

[crossnote]

I think it is saying that Gentiles and not just Jews can inherit the kingdom of God. Kind of summed up in the last to verses. Belief and faith in Jesus is what is required not lineage or the Law.

30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who followed not after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith: 31 but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, did not arrive at [that] law.

32 Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by works. They stumbled at the stone of stumbling; 33 even as it is written, Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence: And he that believeth on him shall not be put to shame.

I believe Paul that case very clear in Romans 1-3, summing it up in chap 3. Chaps 9-11 has more to do with 'where does the Jew fit into the scheme of things?'

 

[Charlie24]

Think of it this way. Jesus came to save Israel. Gentile Christians became part of Spiritual Israel, and national Israel was partially blinded until the last number of Gentiles came into Spiritual Israel; then all national Israel will become Spiritual Israel.

This can be taken at least 4 different ways according to what you mean by spiritual Israel.

I am almost certain I do not agree with your summary.

 

[redleghunter]

@Carl Emerson
Does God have complete foreknowledge? --Yes
Was Judas then created for an ignoble purpose?
-- foreknowledge == predestination? ???

Foreknowledge does not equal predestination.

 

[Charlie24]

It is past midnight here and I am very tired.

I'll pick this again tomorrow.

Interesting thread, thank you all!!

 

[jimmyjimmy]

@Maria Billingsley
Thanks, let me see how I can simplify this;
*God has complete foreknowledge
*Everyone can choose their path(freewill).
Right?

No one *can* come to me unless the Father draw (like water from a well) him. — Jesus

No one is able to come to Christ unless his nature is first changed.

 

[HatGuy]

So I have a question about this? You said “not a popular view”... I’m clearly not as knowledgeable as you or some of the others on the forums. I don’t ask as many questions anymore because people aren’t all that helpful and loving on the forums but you have always seemed respectful so I will ask you. As I said before I don’t know as much but I try and make sure I’m at least thinking does this make sense... And I can’t help but to wonder how it makes sense for people to hold different views about something as important as the nature of God. In one view he creates Judas to be basically be condemned? How can this be? An all loving God? Jesus? How does one make sense out of this view. Thanks

If I may interject, I think God doesn't give us details about Judas because that's all primarily between Him and Judas. As human beings, we love to speculate about others, often as a way of avoiding working out our own relationship with God. So, by giving us so little information, we're in a way forced to work things out with God ourselves.

 

[DamianWarS]

Friends,

I had my understanding of Romans 9 challenged by another member so I thought it would be helpful to open up a discussion on this.

If we can make general comments on what we think Paul was wanting to say.

What is the main message and theme.

I think this chapter raises some issues folks struggle with.

it starts by redefining who is of Isreal and who is not.