What is the meaning of Total Depravity?

[fhansen]

Just as they won't be saved without faith. . .(Eph 2:8-9).

Yes, and we can't be holy without faith because faith means nearness to God.

This is to be grafted into the Vine, apart from whom we can do nothing, John. 15:5. And this union, which itself is the essence of man's righteous, is a personal union, not just a declared or legal status.

 

[Clare73]

Yes, and we can't be holy without faith because faith means nearness to God.

We can't be anything salvific without faith. . .remission of sin, forgiveness, justification, imputed righteousness of Christ, sanctification, glorification. . .

 

[fhansen]

We can't be anything salvific without faith. . .remission of sin, forgiveness, justification, imputed righteousness of Christ, sanctification, glorification. . .

Agreed, and the point is that the mere act of believing does not save one but the fact of what faith means, what it results in, is what saves us. And the basis is nearness to God, connection to the Vine who is life itself. Abd we can walk away from that relationship and the grace it affords as easily as we once entered it

 

[Clare73]

Agreed, and the point is that the mere act of believing does not save one but the fact of what faith means, what it results in, is what saves us.

Saving faith means belief in and trust on the person and atoning work of Jesus Christ (Ro 3:25) for the remission of one's sin.

Faith results in remission of sin, forgiveness, justification, imputed righteousness of Christ, sanctification (through obedience in the Holy Spirit, Ro 6:16, 19), glorification. . .

 

[fhansen]

Saving faith means belief in and trust on the person and atoning work of Jesus Christ (Ro 3:25) for the remission of one's sin.

Faith results in remission of sin, forgiveness, justification, imputed righteousness of Christ, sanctification (through obedience in the Holy Spirit, Ro 6:16, 19), glorification. . .

It's broader than that. Faith means reconcilation with God, It's to say yes to Him, to appropriate the reconciliation accomplished by His Son and to live in that reconciled state, now bound to the Vine, a state of justice or righteousness in and of itself. And, again, that's why Abraham's faith pleased God so much. To know and believe in Jesus is to know and believe in God. And that's the whole reason Jesus came, to save man from the destructive and unjust alienation from God that Adam accomplished.

"Through Him you believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and glorified Him, and so your faith and hope are in God." 1 Pet 1:21

To be saved isn't just to believe in some proposed facts; it's to enter and remain in union with God.

 

[Clare73]

It's broader than that. Faith means reconcilation with God, It's to say yes to Him, to appropriate the reconciliation accomplished by His Son and to live in that reconciled state, now bound to the Vine, a state of justice or righteousness in and of itself. And, again, that's why Abraham's faith pleased God so much. To know and believe in Jesus is to know and believe in God. And that's the whole reason Jesus came, to save man from the destructive and unjust alienation from God that Adam accomplished.

"Through Him you believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and glorified Him, and so your faith and hope are in God." 1 Pet 1:21

To be saved isn't just to believe in some proposed facts; it's to enter and remain in union with God.

Which is what sanctification and glorification are.

 

[fhansen]

Which is what sanctification and glorification are.

And justification: union with God is the whole enchilda- from beginning to end.

 

[Clare73]

And justification: union with God is the whole enchilda- from beginning to end.

To which we must add imputed righteousness of Christ (Ro 1:17, Php 3:9), just as Adam's sin was imputed to us (Ro 5:17, 18-19).

 

[fhansen]

To which we must add imputed righteousness of Christ (Ro 1:17, Php 3:9), just as Adam's sin was imputed to us

That's fine, as long as we don't simultaneously dismiss the personal righteousnss given to us then (Ro 1:17, Php 3:9), and that Adam took away from us (Ro 5:17, 18-19). .

 

[Clare73]

That's fine, as long as we don't simultaneously dismiss the personal righteousnss given to us then (Ro 1:17, Php 3:9), and
that Adam took away from us (Ro 5:17, 18-19). .

We never got to have any righteousness when we were born.

All those of Adam are born with the imputed sin of Adam (Ro 5:14, 17, 18-19), which is the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the imputed righteousness of Christ to those of Christ (Ro 5:18-19, Php 3:9).

The credited (imputed) righteousness of Ro 1:7, Php 3:9 is the righteousness of Christ imputed to us, not our own righteousness.

 

[fhansen]

We never got to have any righteousness when we were born.

We do when we're born again, made new creations, etc.

 

[Clare73]

We do when we're born again, made new creations, etc.

Adam did not take away Ro 1:17, Php 3:9 (post #89).

 

[fhansen]

Adam did not take it away Ro 1:17, Php 3:9.

Of course he did, and that's basic to Christianity. There's a reason why all people sin now and it's because we lost the original righteousness or holiness that is intrinsic to union with God. That's why sin flourished right after the Fall. Cain slew Abel, etc, which would have been totally foreign, impossible, unheard of, beforehand. And faith is the reestablishment of that union.

 

[Clare73]

Of course he did, and that's basic to Christianity. There's a reason why all people sin now and it's because we lost the original righteousness or holiness that is intrinsic to union with God.

See post #90, address the Scriptures there.

 

[fhansen]

See post #90, address the Scriptures there.

I already have, many times. There's nothing about imputed, at least as in personal righteousness not given; there's just righteousness-and unrighteousness- with concepts such as righteousness reckoned or charged, righteousness given, many made righteous...

To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ! Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. Rom 5:13-14, 17-19

Same with Phil 3:9, nothing about an imputed righteousness at all:
"...not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith."

This is all about the gift of righteousness, as we become united with Him:

“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people." Jer 31:33-34

"...not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith." Phil 3:9

"But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe." Rom 3:21-22"

"And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us." Rom 5:5

"For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!" Rom 5:17

“The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Rom 5:20-21

"You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life." Rom 6:18-22

"For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Rom 8:3-4

“Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.” Rom 8:12-14

“The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!” Gal 2:20-21

God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. 2 Cor 5:21

“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. John 15:5-6