What is the greatest moral threat to Christianity in the U.S.?

PeaceByJesus

Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior
Feb 20, 2013
2,779
2,095
USA
Visit site
✟83,561.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Acts 11:26? That doesn't explain what this alleged supreme standard is.

So you expect that a reference merely to where the word "Christian" is found represents the totality of "what the NT describes" as if common sense would not tell you the entire NT is meant? Or did i need to post multitudinous references of the NT describing Christian faith, as if that it does should not be a given?

Your superficial one line spitwads are hardly worthy of response except to say that unless you want to portray agnostics as so ignorant that they cannot perceive that the NT is not only the source of the term Christian but that 'what the NT describes" as a whole is what definitively describes what a Christian is, then i suggest you example some common sense, and perhaps also take a break and do some studying of "what the NT describes" Christian faith as being.

Is that too much to ask if you want to engage in meaningful exchange? If indeed you do.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

PeaceByJesus

Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior
Feb 20, 2013
2,779
2,095
USA
Visit site
✟83,561.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Thank you. Not as bad in context as it appeared as I saw it. I'm not sure that "as we have a supreme descriptive definitive source of the title "Christian," is a neat and complete answer though, given how differently supreme authority is taken in some Christian denomination, (to the point that not all regard all the others as truly Christian)

It is actually reasonably The Answer as it is by that descriptive Source that the basic claims of those who claim to be Christian should be examined, including those who take a light view of supreme authority (God, the Bible, leaders?) Thus my response also added "if you want to argue that libertarian types are what the NT describes then lets have at it."

We may not and need not go so far in every case as to declare so and so was or is not a Christian, though that can be a warranted judgment in many cases, but in dealing with basic issues we should be able to reasonably judge if what one is teaching and or acting is consistent with what the NT describes obedient Christian faith as being.
 
Upvote 0

TLK Valentine

I've already read the books you want burned.
Apr 15, 2012
64,493
30,319
Behind the 8-ball, but ahead of the curve.
✟541,512.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
So you expect that a reference merely to where the word "Christian" is found represents the totality of "what the NT describes" as if common sense would not tell you the entire NT is meant? Or did i need to post multitudinous references of the NT describing Christian faith, as if that it does should not be a given?

Your superficial one line spitwads are hardly worthy of response except to say that unless you want to portray agnostics as so ignorant that they cannot perceive that the NT is not only the source of the term Christian but that 'what the NT describes" as a whole is what definitively describes what a Christian is, then i suggest you example some common sense, and perhaps also take a break and do some studying of "what the NT describes" Christian faith as being.

Is that too much to ask if you want to engage in meaningful exchange? If indeed you do.

I've heard stories about a "supreme standard." I would like to know what that standard is. No more, no less.

Is that so unreasonable?
 
Upvote 0

KCfromNC

Regular Member
Apr 18, 2007
28,743
16,056
✟490,346.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
How can that be unless your argument was not to make it look like a far smaller percentage of the total atheistic population is immoral versus Christians.

Again, all I said was that in a country with a lot of Christians, you shouldn't be surprised to find a lot of Christians everywhere, including in prison. Not sure why that has triggered such a huge response, but now that I know this is a "all Christians are the most moralest people and everyone else is awful" thread I'll leave it to the true believers.
 
Upvote 0

PeaceByJesus

Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior
Feb 20, 2013
2,779
2,095
USA
Visit site
✟83,561.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Again, all I said was that in a country with a lot of Christians, you shouldn't be surprised to find a lot of Christians everywhere, including in prison. Not sure why that has triggered such a huge response, but now that I know this is a "all Christians are the most moralest people and everyone else is awful" thread I'll leave it to the true believers.

If you only argument was that Christians make up the vast majority of the prison population then we have no argument, while it seems that your were trying to impugn Christianity, but which your prison stats are not an argument for, unless we can define Christianity according to the actions of those who self-ID as Christian in prison, versus Scripture.

Of course, if your argument is the strawman your hyperbole expresses, then that would be an argument.

Meanwhile, it seems your definition of Christianity would not give much attention to condemning homosexual activists and relations, and corrupt profane speech, and fornication in a society in which such is pervasive and much foisted upon the young. Maybe the "Overbearing judgmental anti-Christians" get a free pass.
 
Upvote 0

PeaceByJesus

Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior
Feb 20, 2013
2,779
2,095
USA
Visit site
✟83,561.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I've heard stories about a "supreme standard." I would like to know what that standard is. No more, no less.

Is that so unreasonable?

Un-reasonable? Are you serious or just trying to be aggravating? Since the Bible was the only document i referenced to be that supreme standard then what do think it is?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Uncle Siggy
Upvote 0

TLK Valentine

I've already read the books you want burned.
Apr 15, 2012
64,493
30,319
Behind the 8-ball, but ahead of the curve.
✟541,512.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
Un-reasonable? Are you serious or just trying to be aggravating? Since the Bible was the only document i referenced to be that supreme standard then what do think it is?

Oh, is that all?

"What's the standard?"

"The Bible."

End of discussion?

Seems awfully anticlimactic to me...
 
Upvote 0

Locutus

Newbie
May 28, 2014
2,722
891
✟22,874.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Private
Meanwhile, it seems your definition of Christianity would not give much attention to condemning homosexual activists and relations, and corrupt profane speech, and fornication in a society in which such is pervasive and much foisted upon the young.

so nookie and swear words are the purview of the good Christian?

not environmental destruction, starving children, war, and rampant consumerism?

wow
 
Upvote 0

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Site Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,117
34,054
Texas
✟176,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
so nookie and swear words are the purview of the good Christian?

not environmental destruction, starving children, war, and rampant consumerism?

wow

That was a bit too judgmental for you.
 
Upvote 0

PeaceByJesus

Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior
Feb 20, 2013
2,779
2,095
USA
Visit site
✟83,561.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
so nookie and swear words are the purview of the good Christian?
not environmental destruction, starving children, war, and rampant consumerism?
wow

That is a false dilemma, unwarranted by my reply, as both have their place, though environmental destruction and rampant consumerism would be secondary to personal holiness in the NT. But you are not the poster i was addressing, whose definition of Christianity means it would not give much attention to condemning homosexual activists and relations, and corrupt profane speech, and fornication in a society in which such is pervasive and much foisted upon the young.

If you want to debate this then do so.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

PeaceByJesus

Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior
Feb 20, 2013
2,779
2,095
USA
Visit site
✟83,561.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Oh, is that all?

"What's the standard?"

"The Bible."

End of discussion?

Seems awfully anticlimactic to me...

No wonder you are an agnostic with that level of superficial consideration of the argument this relates to. What viable purpose are you serving in this exchange? Have you even cared to provide a coherent argument?

The point was if Christians are going to be impugned then we need a definitive source on what basic Christian faith is. And once we have identified the standard, then on that basis we can contend that such and such a thing is inconsistent or consistent with what the Bible describes as obedient faith (such as Christians being in prison or exercising church discipline, and focusing on such things as fornication).

If you want to make an argument go ahead.
 
Upvote 0

Paulos23

Never tell me the odds!
Mar 23, 2005
8,190
4,468
Washington State
✟314,848.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Un-reasonable? Are you serious or just trying to be aggravating? Since the Bible was the only document i referenced to be that supreme standard then what do think it is?

So your standard is the Bible, not a very relevant document for today.

Do you have to except it in total or just parts?
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,584
26,995
Pacific Northwest
✟736,287.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
though environmental destruction and rampant consumerism would be secondary to personal holiness in the NT.

That's a bit backward isn't it?

Going by what is written in the Gospels the Lord's harshest words were reserved for those whose chief interest was "personal holiness" rather than doing justice.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

TLK Valentine

I've already read the books you want burned.
Apr 15, 2012
64,493
30,319
Behind the 8-ball, but ahead of the curve.
✟541,512.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
That's a bit backward isn't it?

Going by what is written in the Gospels the Lord's harshest words were reserved for those whose chief interest was "personal holiness" rather than doing justice.

-CryptoLutheran

Indeed -- although in all fairness, it was those whose chief interest was the appearance of "personal holiness" that got the most flak.
 
Upvote 0

PeaceByJesus

Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior
Feb 20, 2013
2,779
2,095
USA
Visit site
✟83,561.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
So your standard is the Bible, not a very relevant document for today.
Not a very relevant document for defining what Christian faith is? Are you serious?

Do you have to except it in total or just parts?
You accept (not "except") it as the NT Christians did, such as the transcendence of basic moral laws, but recognizing covenantal distinctions. This something also that is so basic that one who attempts to engage in debate should know it.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

PeaceByJesus

Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior
Feb 20, 2013
2,779
2,095
USA
Visit site
✟83,561.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
That's a bit backward isn't it?
Going by what is written in the Gospels the Lord's harshest words were reserved for those whose chief interest was "personal holiness" rather than doing justice.
-CryptoLutheran

Really? So the Lord was actually condemning the Scribes and Pharisees for being more concerned about disobeying the 10 commandments than saving the environment and combating consumerism? Or was it because they were actually hypocrites when it came to personal holiness, and for not actually doing what they taught? (Mt. 23)

Meanwhile, it remains that focusing on not being an idolator or an adulterer, fornicator, a thief (including laying to what you did not earn) etc. is not opposed to "social justice," but i need to know what you are protesting that fund. type Christians are not involved in, specifically.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

PeaceByJesus

Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior
Feb 20, 2013
2,779
2,095
USA
Visit site
✟83,561.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
....it was those whose chief interest was the appearance of "personal holiness" that got the most flak.

Indeed, and even doing the opposite, or being careful about not working on the Sabbath, while missing the intent of the Law, or being scrupulous such little things as tithes on spices, while neglecting social aspects.

Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. (Matthew 23:2-3)
Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. (Matthew 23:24)
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,584
26,995
Pacific Northwest
✟736,287.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Really? So the Lord was actually condemning the Scribes and Pharisees for being more concerned about disobeying the 10 commandments than saving the environment and combating consumerism? Or was it because they were actually hypocrites when it came to personal holiness, and for not actually doing what they taught? (Mt. 23)

No. The Lord was condemning religious hypocrites for concerning themselves far more with their personal religiosity and sense of personal holiness and righteousness than being actually faithful to the instructions of God, toward justice and mercy. Because my personal holiness isn't what matters, it's God's righteousness and His command that I be a lover of my neighbor and seek out justice for my fellow man--that is the Law of God which He commands of me and which I, sinner that I am, fail to do and for which reason I need forgiveness and mercy. And for which reason I am called to a life of repentance, looking not to my own works which are always stained with sin, but to the promises of God in His Gospel which both promises that hope of life everlasting and delivers that hope.

It isn't the Pharisee who declared before God and men, "Thank you Lord that I am not like these sinners, especially that tax-collector" that walked away righteous and justified, but the tax-collector who could not even lift his eyes upward to heaven but instead beat his breast and cried, "Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner."

Meanwhile, it remains that focusing on not being an idolator or an adulterer, fornicator, a thief (including laying to what you did not earn) etc. is not opposed to "social justice," but i need to know what you are protesting that fund. type Christians are not involved in, specifically.

Understanding that the Great Commandment is not about moral self improvement and personal "holiness" but instead is about the love of God and neighbor, with the commands of God directing us outward toward our neighbor in mercy, justice, and love not inward toward ourselves which is always sin.

It is not moral self improvement that Scripture calls us toward, but the outward call to serve others in the name of Jesus, doing good works that benefit our neighbor, and to a life of repentance, of hearing and receiving the Gospel which comforts us sinners in light of our failure to be the just and right people we ought to be according to God's high calling.

Recognizing that the Law is the Law and can neither justify nor save, but nevertheless demands and commands that we be a people of outward compassion and justice for all in accordance with the just commands of God; and that the Gospel alone brings the comfort of grace and salvation as we are freely imputed with the righteousness--the justice--of God that is in Christ Jesus who for us offered Himself to death for the sake of our sin and by whose death and resurrection has won for all the victory of God over sin, death, hell, and the devil to the promise and hope of everlasting life to that good and just world which we long for in Christ. In this life confessing that we are but beggars and servants, hoping not in our upward climb to glory in this life which is impossible, but in the faithful promises of the God who gave His life for the sake of liars, prostitutes, drunks, failures, and fools--namely, you and me.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,281
8,500
Milwaukee
✟410,948.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
So your standard is the Bible, not a very relevant document for today.

I haven't noticed any changes in human motivation and behavior lately.
Which parts of humans have changed? You mean the lack of cell phones in scripture?


SEARCHING FOR A BETTER SIGNAL

satan-wallpaper-free-4-4-s-307x512.jpg
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

PeaceByJesus

Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior
Feb 20, 2013
2,779
2,095
USA
Visit site
✟83,561.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
No. The Lord was condemning religious hypocrites for concerning themselves far more with their personal religiosity and sense of personal holiness and righteousness than being actually faithful to the instructions of God, toward justice and mercy.
Being concerned about disobeying the 10 commandments does not mean being mindful personal holiness. You are basically moving the goal posts, as i stated that i was addressing the definition of Christianity which "means it would not give much attention to condemning homosexual activists and relations, and corrupt profane speech, and fornication in a society in which such is pervasive and much foisted upon the young,"

And,

"that focusing on not being an idolator or an adulterer, fornicator, a thief (including laying to what you did not earn) etc. is not opposed to "social justice."'

Nowhere was the issue mere "sense of personal holiness," while as for "personal religiosity" i affirmed that the Lord censured the scribes and the Pharisees for "being careful about not working on the Sabbath, while missing the intent of the Law, or being scrupulous such little things as tithes on spices, while neglecting social aspects."
Because my personal holiness isn't what matters, it's God's righteousness and His command that I be a lover of my neighbor and seek out justice for my fellow man
Wrong: personal holiness is what matters as well as actions toward others, as in fact the latter flows from the former, holiness of heart. "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness." (Mark 7:21,22)

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. (Matthew 23:27)

Note that evil thoughts, an evil eye (likely envy), and pride are condemned along with sins of deed. And Scripture also exhorts,

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?... Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. (2 Corinthians 6:14,17-18)

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. (2 Corinthians 7:1)


If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. (Colossians 3:1)

But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. (Colossians 3:8)

Thus while perhaps you imagine that it does not matter if we engage in idolatry of heart, and engage in lusts, vengeful thoughts, entertain unclean thoughts, and are prideful, complaining, resentful etc., as long as we are active in social aspects, this is not what Scripture teaches.

But i suspect we may be somewhat talking past each other here.

I remember the story of a committed man who began a great mercy mission to people in the third world, but had some sore of "root of bitterness" which resulted in unnecessary conflicts with others, as well as other issues which resulted in divorce and subsequently the suicide of one of his daughter (whom he rarely saw) due to the distress he fostered.

Note however that i know all to well that as regards my sinful nature (AKA "the flesh") therein dwells no go thing, (Rm. 7) and the awareness and being grieved over what that produces in heart is a sign of regeneration, which evil is to be overcome with good.
And for which reason I am called to a life of repentance, looking not to my own works which are always stained with sin, but to the promises of God in His Gospel which both promises that hope of life everlasting and delivers that hope.
Rather, we are to look keep our heart with all diligence, and examine the works which flow from the heart as evidence of true faith, not being prideful about what God does in and by you, but giving Him thanks and credit for so doing.

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. (Philippians 2:13)

Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? (2 Corinthians 13:5)

It isn't the Pharisee who declared before God and men, "Thank you Lord that I am not like these sinners, especially that tax-collector" that walked away righteous and justified, but the tax-collector who could not even lift his eyes upward to heaven but instead beat his breast and cried, "Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner."
But the error of the Pharisee was not that he fasted twice a week and paid tithes of all he possessed, but his sin was that of pride in this well doing, and not being conscious and grieved over the iniquity of his heart and actions, as the penitent publican was. (Lk. 18)
Understanding that the Great Commandment is not about moral self improvement and personal "holiness" but instead is about the love of God and neighbor, with the commands of God directing us outward toward our neighbor in mercy, justice, and love not inward toward ourselves which is always sin. It is not moral self improvement that Scripture calls us toward, but the outward call to serve others in the name of Jesus,
You continue to engage in this false dichotomy, but morality does involve both the heart and actions. Take away the heart of worship and intent on holy affections and outward ministry will end up being a mere social welfare agency. It was for good cause that that laborious apostles "called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables. Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business." (Acts 6:2-3)

Note the manner of men who were to be appointed over the social business. It was not merely some souls with a good work ethic who had a desire to do help out somewhat, but "men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom." Which i need to seek to be.
receiving the Gospel which comforts us sinners in light of our failure to be the just and right people we ought to be according to God's high calling.
But which high calling involves holiness of heart and personal behavior, That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:4)
Paul's great yearning was not simply to do more labor toward others in preaching, but to die to self and exchange that for the resurrection power of Christ, and be as close to a resurrected saint in this life as he could be.

That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. (Philippians 3:10-11)
I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. (Philippians 3:14-15)
Recognizing that the Law is the Law and can neither justify nor save, but nevertheless demands and commands that we be a people of outward compassion and justice for all in accordance with the just commands of God; and that the Gospel alone brings the comfort of grace and salvation as we are freely imputed with the righteousness--the justice--of God that is in Christ Jesus
Thanks be to God, while such faith effects changes in both heart and life, and in personal discipline, holiness as well as in outreach, and the two are to go together.
Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity. Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine. (1 Timothy 4:12-13)

who for us offered Himself to death for the sake of our sin and by whose death and resurrection has won for all the victory of God over sin, death, hell, and the devil to the promise and hope of everlasting life to that good and just world which we long for in Christ. In this life confessing that we are but beggars and servants, hoping not in our upward climb to glory in this life which is impossible, but in the faithful promises of the God who gave His life for the sake of liars, prostitutes, drunks, failures, and fools--namely, you and me. -CryptoLutheran
But while God justifies the unGodly by faith, such will characteristically live holy, as sheep who hear the Voice of their Master, Christ, and repent when convicted of not doing so.

And which does mean, as shown, seeking to grow in personal holiness, as that we actually become good enough to be with God in this life or in a postmortem purgatorial process, but in dying to self and being filled with God, and growing in grace, and thus being good stewards of the manifold grace of God, and fit for ever good work.

But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. (2 Timothy 2:20-21)

According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. (2 Peter 1:3-8)

Which growth i feel i have much to go in. Once or twice a week i am blessed to be able to give surplus food out in this (relatively) poor and populous city, and seek to help my neighbors in temporal ways, while prioritizing giving them at least a gospel tract.

And online contend for doctrine and faith, and opposing those who attempt to justify basic moral evils, yet my greatest yearning is that all that within me always basically cries glory to God, and to be holy in spirit, soul and body.

To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. (1 Thessalonians 3:13)

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thessalonians 5:23)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0