What is the Falsification for Abiogenesis and Theory of Evolution?

[SelfSim]

Fancy way of saying that they haven't been able to show it's possible.

If it wasn't possible, the predictions being currently tested, wouldn't be testable now, would they?

 

[Bradskii]

I loved The Ancestor's Tale.

It's like one's personal family tree writ large.

 

[Astrid]

Things in the real world always involve finite quantities which we may idealize with geometric concepts such as values like pi or e. Pi is an ideal construct of mathematics - Something called a circumference, diameter etc. in proportion precisely described in mathematical idealizations. Mathematically we can describe this because of our exact definitions in terms of infinite series and the exact mathematical geometric definition of a circle. The infinite series has an infinite number of terms but this can't be actually written out as an actually infinite quantity, neither can its decimal expansion. It can be proved to be infinite and transcendental but that is it. Computers and calculators only ever use a finite number of terms of the infinite mathematical series to generate values to be used by engineers and scientists (approximation algorithms) in the real world. This is fine for applications in science and engineering but not fine when trying to establish something infinite (requiring infinite precision). We can use infinite quantities in the real world as long as the problems we are trying to solve don't require actual manipulation of the infinities written out as actual infinities and requiring infinite precision.

To describe god in the real world one would have to generate an actual infinite set of characteristics and then actually verify them to what one considers are those of god, which is impossible. Impossible because one would have to first try to determine them (which couldn't be done because it would take an infinite amount of time and infinite precision), show they corresponded to what was called god (again impossible) and not to some other potentially infinite being that might exist but perhaps not as great or as powerful or as knowing. This is equivalent to comparing countable to uncountable infinities but requiring that the infinities actually be expressed (all terms actually written out), something impossible in the real world.

 

[Bertrand Russell White]

Fancy way of saying that they haven't been able to show it's possible.

It is an incredibly difficult thing to show. But not impossible. I wouldn't accept it from a lab too many factors to control for (including those you don't know about) . However, let me ask you some questions:

1. If you were shown distant planets in a telescope that clearly showed all major stages of abiogenesis would you concede at least that life from non-life might be possible on earth (from simple chemical structures to simple life)? If not why not? (Note: this is essentially Galileo all over again)
2. If the science of abiogenesis was clearly explained in terms of how the components of simple organisms (development of proteins, amino acids etc.) clearly arose and there was planetary evidence to this for each stage, would you agree that life might be possible from non-life on earth? If not why not?
3. Is there any evidence you would accept to show that life arose from non-life on earth? If not why not?

Set out your conditions instead of throwing up roadblocks to avoid providing a challenge to the community of people that strongly believe that knowledge will eventually lead to a naturalistic explanation of life - including many Christians. Otherwise you are just being obscurantist to support your own little ideas.

 

[dlamberth]

because God cleaned it up? because what replaced the mess looks like there was no mess in the first place?

Sounds like deception I'm thinking.

 

[Astrid]

Things in the real world always involve finite quantities which we may idealize with geometric concepts such as values like pi or e. Pi is an ideal construct of mathematics - Something called a circumference, diameter etc. in proportion precisely described in mathematical idealizations. Mathematically we can describe this because of our exact definitions in terms of infinite series and the exact mathematical geometric definition of a circle. The infinite series has an infinite number of terms but this can't be actually written out as an actually infinite quantity, neither can its decimal expansion. It can be proved to be infinite and transcendental but that is it. Computers and calculators only ever use a finite number of terms of the infinite mathematical series to generate values to be used by engineers and scientists (approximation algorithms) in the real world. This is fine for applications in science and engineering but not fine when trying to establish something infinite (requiring infinite precision). We can use infinite quantities in the real world as long as the problems we are trying to solve don't require actual manipulation of the infinities written out as actual infinities and requiring infinite precision.

To describe god in the real world one would have to generate an actual infinite set of characteristics and then actually verify them to what one considers are those of god, which is impossible. Impossible because one would have to first try to determine them (which couldn't be done because it would take an infinite amount of time and infinite precision), show they corresponded to what was called god (again impossible) and not to some other potentially infinite being that might exist but perhaps not as great or as powerful or as knowing. This is equivalent to comparing countable to uncountable infinities but requiring that the infinities actually be expressed (all terms actually written out), something impossible in the real world.

We can't fully describe a sugar cube either.
So.....?

Are there any descriptive words at all, for god?
What is their source? Are they just name up?
At best, all gods but one are made up.

Speaking of which thats a Lotta stuff there that
you just made up. How do you know, for one,
that something which may not even exist is
"infinite"? (Hint; it's a made up fact)

If we had a half dozen that were even partly true
we'd be way ahead. Like, it would indicate
there at least is a god. Surely some god could find a way
to reveal that much.

Can you try to condense your posts?

 

[AV1611VET]

Sumer (not Sumeria, no such place) ...

Thanks for the correction.

There is no such person as Shem (prove it with evidence, if you think there is), like everything else in Genesis, it is myth.

Boy that was easy, wasn't it?

Reminds me of this, from over a decade ago:

Man --- this line of rhetoric is reminiscent of my old Millard Fillmore thread, where I challenged anyone to prove he existed without placing their faith in any kind of documentation.

I might recreate it --- just for fun.

 

[AV1611VET]

Sounds like deception I'm thinking.

Uh-huh. You've never made a mess and then cleaned it up?

If so, were you accused of deception?

 

[dlamberth]

Uh-huh. You've never made a mess and then cleaned it up?

If so, were you accused of deception?

I've made a mess and yes, cleaned it up and acted like nothing happened. Yes, that's deception.

 

[Astrid]

I suggest you read up on the history of science if you are not familiar with the developments of these things.

I thought I just said I don't need science lessons from you,
and you are at it again

My double major BSc was bio / geol

If you dont want to answer a question you could just say so.

 

[AV1611VET]

I've made a mess and yes, cleaned it up and acted like nothing happened. Yes, that's deception.

You never left a note detailing what you did, when you did it, how you did it, where you did it, and who saw you do it?

If not, don't think God acted like you.

 

[SelfSim]

If not, don't think God acted like you.

.. and I guess you had to think like God, in order to come up with that warning there?
How did you achieve such grandiose insights?

 

[AV1611VET]

.. and I guess you had to think like God, in order to come up with that warning there?

What warning?

How did you achieve such grandiose insights?

Um ... it wasn't hard.

Lamberth said he made a mess, cleaned it up, then acted like nothing happened.

Same thing I would have done.

But God, on the other hand, documented His mess in detail; detailing what He did, where He did it, when He did it, how He did it, why He did it, and even mentioned four eyewitness by name (Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth), and four eyewitnesses whose names weren't given (their wives).

 

[dlamberth]

You never left a note detailing what you did, when you did it, how you did it, where you did it, and who saw you do it?

If not, don't think God acted like you.

Where is all of that detail at?

 

[AV1611VET]

Where is all of that detail at?

Genesis 6 - 9.

 

[dlamberth]

Genesis 6 - 9.

I don't see any clean up detail there.

 

[AV1611VET]

I don't see any clean up detail there.

Look harder.

If you can see God in a drop of rain, I'm sure you can see a dove with an olive leaf in its mouth.

Genesis 8:8 Also he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters were abated from off the face of the ground;
Ge 8:9 But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth: then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the ark.
Ge 8:10 And he stayed yet other seven days; and again he sent forth the dove out of the ark;
Ge 8:11 And the dove came in to him in the evening; and, lo, in her mouth was an olive leaf pluckt off: so Noah knew that the waters were abated from off the earth.

 

[dlamberth]

Look harder.

If you can see God in a drop of rain, I'm sure you can see a dove with an olive leaf in its mouth.

Genesis 8:8 Also he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters were abated from off the face of the ground;
Ge 8:9 But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth: then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the ark.
Ge 8:10 And he stayed yet other seven days; and again he sent forth the dove out of the ark;
Ge 8:11 And the dove came in to him in the evening; and, lo, in her mouth was an olive leaf pluckt off: so Noah knew that the waters were abated from off the earth.

Where's the clean up?

 

[Bradskii]

Where's the clean up?

I believe the point being laboriously made is that God cleaned up to such an extent that He left no evidence of a flood.

 

[Bradskii]

Look harder.

If you can see God in a drop of rain, I'm sure you can see a dove with an olive leaf in its mouth.

It's not very often that I point out that someone is making a risible argument and they agree with me...