what is the evidence that universe is 13.7B years old?

[AV1611VET]

Science isn't my god. Also, for my approach to theology and faith in Christ, the findings of modern physical science/astrophysics don't make much difference and arent' the locus wherein I see that there's a hill to die upon ...

Good for you.

But what about those who claim that what transpired in Genesis 1 can't possibly be true, as it would constitute deception, yet wouldn't hesitate to do it themselves if they could?

Even going so far as to award themselves a Nobel prize for their efforts?

(I'm getting the idea for a challenge thread.)

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Good for you.

But what about those who claim that what transpired in Genesis 1 can't possibly be true, as it would constitute deception, yet wouldn't hesitate to do it themselves if they could?

Even going so far as to award themselves a Nobel prize for their efforts?

(I'm getting the idea for a challenge thread.)

What about them? You can't "force feed" the Holy Spirit upon them. So, whad'ya going to do?

I mean, if I spent every day worrying about whether or not there's a "devil" tilting every rock or every microscope and telesope, I'd never get anything else done in life, AV!!!

Wouldn't ya say that's pretty accurate?

 

[PeterDona]

(There aren't two planets rotating the wrong way about the Sun.)

Sorry about that. Spinning would have been a more precise word.
Why Are Venus And Uranus Spinning in The Wrong Direction?

 

[Hans Blaster]

Sorry about that. Spinning would have been a more precise word.
Why Are Venus And Uranus Spinning in The Wrong Direction?

'Cause they got hit by something along time ago in their history, maybe, no?

Uranus is tilted 90 degrees as well. But in both cases, the orbits, like the orbits of all the planets and most other objects in the Solar System are in the same sense. The spins of the rest of the planets and the Sun are also oriented in the same direction as the orbits. The overall direction of the angular momentum of the Solar System is quite clear.

 

[PeterDona]

Yes the foolish gnostics FAKE knowledge, exactly like today’s folks with the Big Bang philosophy pretending to be knowledge. And many more foolish fads people jump on today. Like the eugenics fad, Nazis science was also a terrible fad. All fake knowledge. Hence the definition for it fits well for that time and today.

If you would be able to substantiate this, it would be really interesting for our conversation. I think it has been already laid out how BB theory tries to combine relativity theory and particle physics.
BB theory is of course a speculation about what happened in the past, but it does seem to have its strengths.
I will post one or two objections to the theory if I find that it can stimulate discussion. We will have to wait and see

 

[PeterDona]

'Cause they got hit by something along time ago in their history, maybe, no?

You think a "hit" did it? You can probably guess what I think. But never mind. I guess my argument is leaning in the direction of the "fine tuning" argument. The solar system is well ordered. Example the harmonious distances between the sun and the planet orbits. How could random (if they were random) forces create such a master piece?

Uranus is tilted 90 degrees as well. But in both cases, the orbits, like the orbits of all the planets and most other objects in the Solar System are in the same sense.

I would be hard pressed to think that something else would be possible, even though space between the planets is thought to be a void. It has been said that the gravitational interaction of the planets keep them in their orbits. E.g. here: click. The opposite would probably be true if some planet went backwards

 

[Hans Blaster]

I would be hard pressed to think that something else would be possible, even though space between the planets is thought to be a void. It has been said that the gravitational interaction of the planets keep them in their orbits. E.g. here: click. The opposite would probably be true if some planet went backwards

Orbits can work with any orientation or direction. It is still always inertia keeping it straight (planet would fly off if gravity "stopped") and gravitational attraction bending the path (planet pulled toward the Sun) working together to create the orbit. This is true for any orbital orientation and works for objects orbiting "backwards" as well.

 

[PeterDona]

The Big Bang uses SOME science and people mix it with philosophy deeply to fool each other into believing it’s actual science. It’s the trickery.


just for you folks: Is a Popular Theory of Cosmic Creation Pseudoscience?

I found your link to be an interesting read. Just for clarification, and anyone may join to answer my question here: Is not the BB theory at it's core inflationary? Meaning, we observe red shifts that indicate our universe is expanding, and inflationary theory would be just the idea that the universe has always done that. Am I getting the understanding right?

 

[Hans Blaster]

You think a "hit" did it? You can probably guess what I think. But never mind. I guess my argument is leaning in the direction of the "fine tuning" argument. The solar system is well ordered. Example the harmonious distances between the sun and the planet orbits. How could random (if they were random) forces create such a master piece?

There's no "fine tuning" needed to make the solar system. The planets aren't in any sort of harmony. There are limits to how close two orbits can be, because if one large planet if forming nearby the clumps that would condense in to the next planet over can't. This is why there is an "asteroid belt" next to Jupiter. The rocky bits in the orbit between Jupiter and Mars couldn't coalesce into a single planet, so there is all kinds of "refuse" left over. Otherwise that whole lot would be another rocky planet.

The solar system isn't a "masterpiece" it's just a star system with 8 planets and two major belts of smaller objects.

 

[PeterDona]

Orbits can work with any orientation or direction. It is still always inertia keeping it straight (planet would fly off if gravity "stopped") and gravitational attraction bending the path (planet pulled toward the Sun) working together to create the orbit. This is true for any orbital orientation and works for objects orbiting "backwards" as well.

hm I think based on memory that the idea was that the planetary orbits, by their interaction, are kept from getting "too" elliptical. I will have to fail to find a link to support that idea here.

 

[Hans Blaster]

hm I think based on memory that the idea was that the planetary orbits, by their interaction, are kept from getting "too" elliptical. I will have to fail to find a link to support that idea here.

Tidal forces between the two objects tend to "circularize" the orbit naturally with time. One measure that two objects haven't orbited each other for long (or have been recently disturbed) is the ellipticity of the orbit. Elliptical orbits indicate a recent formation or disturbance of the pairing.

 

[PeterDona]

There's no "fine tuning" needed to make the solar system. [...]

The solar system isn't a "masterpiece" it's just a star system with 8 planets and two major belts of smaller objects.

I would expect that you could point to some kind of model to corroborate your view stated here. You did not directly go at my question about what force(s) would have effected the solar system. Do you see the solar system as simply the natural outcome of a dying star or what it supposedly was?

 

[chilehed]

But what about those who claim that what transpired in Genesis 1 can't possibly be true

You mean the people who have the blazingly idiotic idea that God intended Genesis to be treated as if it were a science text book? What about them, indeed?

The solar system isn't a "masterpiece"

Well, on that single point I gotta disagree, but it's really a side issue.

 

[chilehed]

***

 

[Hans Blaster]

I would expect that you could point to some kind of model to corroborate your view stated here. You did not directly go at my question about what force(s) would have effected the solar system. Do you see the solar system as simply the natural outcome of a dying star or what it supposedly was?

It isn't from a dying star. Dying stars either expands slowly (leaving a white dwarf behind) or explode violently (leaving a black hole or neutron star). The Solar system didn't form from an expansion, but a collapse of a gas cloud. (There is also no NS, BH, or WD in the solar system.)

 

[Andre_b]

And which denomination of Christianity, pray tell, should they join when they finally wake up from their scientific slumber, Andre?

There’s a fairly basic idea which is “if you love me keep my commandments” John 14:15

and “keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus” Rev 14:12

true Christians are supposed to live as Christ lives since he grants us the power of the Holy Spirit to “do his commandments” Rev 22:14

because Christ asks “all men to repent” Acts 14:30

Keeping God’s commandments is the “duty of all mankind” Ecclesiastes 12:13

but people don’t want to do this hence why there’s believers and non believers that ignore these.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

There’s a fairly basic idea which is “if you love me keep my commandments” John 14:15

and “keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus” Rev 14:12

true Christians are supposed to live as Christ lives since he grants us the power of the Holy Spirit to “do his commandments” Rev 22:14

because Christ asks “all men to repent” Acts 14:30

Keeping God’s commandments is the “duty of all mankind” Ecclesiastes 12:13

but people don’t want to do this hence why there’s believers and non believers that ignore these.

... interestingly enough, I don't see the idea of Y.E.C. listed in this brief catalog of faithful Christian ideology that you've given.

May I take this as an indication that believing in a literal 6 Day Creation isn't mandatory to be a "good Christian"?

 

[AV1611VET]

You mean the people who have the blazingly idiotic idea that God intended Genesis to be treated as if it were a science text book?

We could include them as well.

But what I want to know, is if scientists learned to:

1. Create an object tomorrow ex nihilo, so old it falls apart with age.
2. Transport an object from Earth to Timbuktu sixteen million light years away in 1/10 of a second.

... if they would consider themselves being deceptive.

I have a feeling they wouldn't.

But if God could, He's being deceptive ... right?

 

[PeterDona]

That is not my understanding, (nor Astrophysicists'), of the so-called BB Model. The model serves as a predictive explanation for the concept of the evolution of the observable universe.

'Natural causes' might be an interpretation of what that model might represent to a philosophically focused person, I suppose .. but that's not what those who created and work with the model are focused on.

No one has to believe in the BB model. 'Belief in it' is optional and quite irrelevant, given that it is only a best attempt explanation.
.. of astronomical proportions, some might even say(?)
Rotation is concluded from independent observations of cloud velocity gradients, for example the M51 spiral galaxy (see: Rotation of molecular clouds in M 51, 2020).
Firstly, the context:(With gravitational contraction being just one of the forces considered there).

Their conclusion:


There is. (See the above paper, as an example).

intellectual honesty forces me to dig into this. It may take a while. The thread moves from light entertainment to serious investigation. At least in some aspects.

 

[Andre_b]

... interestingly enough, I don't see the idea of Y.E.C. listed in this brief catalog of faithful Christian ideology that you've given.

May I take this as an indication that believing in a literal 6 Day Creation isn't mandatory to be a "good Christian"?

According to you it’s not relevant. But it’s important to what you believe, since it’s linked to the commandments of God and specifically the 4th commandment which literally say 6 days heaven, earth, the sea, and everything in them, was created. Zero allegory there.

it is then paralleled in who our creator is “who made heaven, earth, the sea…” again in Revelation 14:7 literally the same order as the 4th commandment explain he’s our creator, the one who created everything in 6 days. There’s no other reason why we have a 7 day week.