What is the Church's position on Creation/Evolution

[rusmeister]

Good and pious Orthodox Christians obedient to the Tradition such as myself and, I presume, you can certainly disagree about this. I direct you to the Orthodox wiki for several articles discussing differing viewpoints. Hope that helps.

No, they cannot. Someone is in schism, even if they don't realize it.

 

[Milan Polenta]

What does this mean ?

It was a statement reflecting the common argument/straw man from many of my peers (late 20s, early 30s, in the arts) that find it impossible to believe that a Deity would manifest and live a life as a historical human and Messiah and change our metaphysical relationship to death.
They often retreat into the "Jesus is an archetype of these other pagan religious figures! dIdN't YoU sEe ZeItGeIsT??" frame or the idea that Christianity was established based on myth, solely as a tool to somehow sequester more power into the Roman Empire... Needless to say, many of my peers have some deeply ingrained presuppositions and are firmly entrenched in the dialectics set up by their education and sentimentalities.
I was sort of kidding around. Lots of people consider anything that gets labeled a "conspiracy theory" to be unworthy of a discerning evaluation.

 

[rusmeister]

The basic sad fact is that this is only an internet forum set up and run by non-Orthodox folk, not an actual Church with an actual bishop who could act if a person openly denied basic Orthodox doctrine and declare an unrepentant and incorrigible person excommunicate by his own adherence to his personal doctrine rather than accept the established Church teaching.

In any event, the whole Church is messed up, when we have metropolitans going Anglican and patriarchs throwing the Church into schism, so such plainly necessary defense of the Faith by a bishop is not even guaranteed. People can continue going around declaring their own version of Orthodoxy to be THE Faith passed down from the beginning, and there’s not a whole lot anyone can do about it, unless - MAYBE - everyone chimed in to affirm that there was no death in the world until sin entered into it, we got that entered into our congregational statement of faith, and could then censure a member that denied or challenged it. Non-Orthodox solutions are easy, such as appealing to non-Orthodox authority to silence disagreement. But that’s not Orthodox. Only by an appeal to consensus can we even hope to end such disagreement and become of one mind about anything at all and say that any particular view is Orthodox or not.

 

[-Image-]

I've been tuning into Jay Dyer for 2-3 years now. Jay is neither left or right. In fact, he finds it all to be a distraction. He's a self admitted Monarchist rooted in the Orthodox faith. We can look to Byzantium for inspiration.

He's not a "conspiracy theorist". Everything he speaks about has been admitted by the very people involved and published in their own books. He's just repeating their own words.

Jay has been instrumental in my growing faith in Christianity. His traditional philosophy and metaphysics episodes have some serious "meat" to chew on. His theology, from what I can discern, is sound.

I came to his channel for the "conspiracy", I stayed for the Orthodoxy. For that, I am forever grateful.

Anyways, just my 2 cents worth.

 

[gzt]

Um, yes he is one. However, I'm glad he's leading you to faith and hope that, as he is now an Orthodox Christian, that his newly-found faith will guide him further up and further in, as CS Lewis put it.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

There is one reality about these Orthodox evolution threads—-the only thing that evolves from them is civil war in TAW.

 

[All4Christ]

There is one reality about these Orthodox evolution threads—-the only thing that evolves from them is civil war in TAW.

 

[rusmeister]

People who believe evolution as a cosmic theory, that everything, and I mean everything, is in a constantly-changing state, come to believe that about Holy Tradition as well. Clarification of what has always been true gets exchanged for changing beliefs about what is true. Thus, under this belief, Church understanding of, say, human sexuality (sex being an especially clear example) undergoes a metamorphosis, from being a thing intended to be expressed in a relationship that is for life, a relationship that may not be broken, and all expression outside that permanent relationship as being broken, aka sin, to a negotiable thing. Divorce and contraception become normative (by which I mean acceptable among practicing Orthodox Christians) as do sexual practices that abuse (wrongly use) the sexual function, and a proper compassion for people acknowledging a sin as sin becomes a false compassion for people who simply wish to practice the sin with the approval of the Church, economia becomes license to do so, and the stern teachings of the standard we ought to be held to gets replaced by “pastoral care” that does not really call us to uphold those standards. The attitude winds up being applied to “homosexual” relationships and other modern attitudes both toward the marital act, and to the sexes in general. And that’s just one example of how evolutionism creeps into the Church; the very idea of evolution has made it plausible.

Theology is another one. I don’t have the time, but the idea of a deathless world into which a fully-formed man commits sin and causes death to enter the world gets thrown out the window, too. It comes to be treated as a mere allegory and not as an event taking place in history. The conception shared by pretty much all the fathers gets suborned.

Liturgical change becomes normative. Legitimate issues, like prayers for an empire that has ceased to exist, or doors that are no longer locked, morph into playing a guitar or singing modern songs during Liturgy that attempt to praise God in the modern manner creep in. And step by step, we become Swift Eagle Justice (or whatever).

The consensus of the fathers, the vast mass of assumptions they agreed upon, gets replaced by the confusion of the fathers, the notion that they agreed on nothing, except maybe the Creed, and that appeals to consensus are just appeals to indivduals who disagreed. All understandings, once generally taken for granted, become a matter of personal opinion. We become just another bunch of Protestants.

 

[Platina]

I've been tuning into Jay Dyer for 2-3 years now. Jay is neither left or right. In fact, he finds it all to be a distraction. He's a self admitted Monarchist rooted in the Orthodox faith. We can look to Byzantium for inspiration.

He's not a "conspiracy theorist". Everything he speaks about has been admitted by the very people involved and published in their own books. He's just repeating their own words.

Jay has been instrumental in my growing faith in Christianity. His traditional philosophy and metaphysics episodes have some serious "meat" to chew on. His theology, from what I can discern, is sound.

I came to his channel for the "conspiracy", I stayed for the Orthodoxy. For that, I am forever grateful.

Anyways, just my 2 cents worth.

Thank you for giving us a perspective from someone who actually listens to and reads him. It's refreshing to hear something that isn't just a conspiracy theory about him!

 

[-Image-]

Um, yes he is one. However, I'm glad he's leading you to faith and hope that, as he is now an Orthodox Christian, that his newly-found faith will guide him further up and further in, as CS Lewis put it.

That might clear some stuff up for you.

I believe he has always had faith. It might be more appropriate to say that through discernment he has drawn closer to Truth.

 

[All4Christ]

People who believe evolution as a cosmic theory, that everything, and I mean everything, is in a constantly-changing state, come to believe that about Holy Tradition as well. Clarification of what has always been true gets exchanged for changing beliefs about what is true. Thus, under this belief, Church understanding of, say, human sexuality (sex being an especially clear example) undergoes a metamorphosis, from being a thing intended to be expressed in a relationship that is for life, a relationship that may not be broken, and all expression outside that permanent relationship as being broken, aka sin, to a negotiable thing. Divorce and contraception become normative (by which I mean acceptable among practicing Orthodox Christians) as do sexual practices that abuse (wrongly use) the sexual function, and a proper compassion for people acknowledging a sin as sin becomes a false compassion for people who simply wish to practice the sin with the approval of the Church, economia becomes license to do so, and the stern teachings of the standard we ought to be held to gets replaced by “pastoral care” that does not really call us to uphold those standards. The attitude winds up being applied to “homosexual” relationships and other modern attitudes both toward the marital act, and to the sexes in general. And that’s just one example of how evolutionism creeps into the Church; the very idea of evolution has made it plausible.

Theology is another one. I don’t have the time, but the idea of a deathless world into which a fully-formed man commits sin and causes death to enter the world gets thrown out the window, too. It comes to be treated as a mere allegory and not as an event taking place in history. The conception shared by pretty much all the fathers gets suborned.

Liturgical change becomes normative. Legitimate issues, like prayers for an empire that has ceased to exist, or doors that are no longer locked, morph into playing a guitar or singing modern songs during Liturgy that attempt to praise God in the modern manner creep in. And step by step, we become Swift Eagle Justice (or whatever).

The consensus of the fathers, the vast mass of assumptions they agreed upon, gets replaced by the confusion of the fathers, the notion that they agreed on nothing, except maybe the Creed, and that appeals to consensus are just appeals to indivduals who disagreed. All understandings, once generally taken for granted, become a matter of personal opinion. We become just another bunch of Protestants.

Honest question - Have you seen guitars or modern songs in liturgy??? (Orthodox liturgy)

Or are you referencing a common outcome based on other churches?

 

[rusmeister]

Honest question - Have you seen guitars or modern songs in liturgy??? (Orthodox liturgy)

Or are you referencing a common outcome based on other churches?

I have seen a couple of screwy things and questionable things in Liturgy. One was a well-intentioned song for a man who gave his life saving someone else. But the point is, yes, such things ARE done. It's not just my imagination or internet myth.

 

[prodromos]

Honest question - Have you seen guitars or modern songs in liturgy??? (Orthodox liturgy)

Or are you referencing a common outcome based on other churches?

I still can't get my head around the organ being used in the Greek churches in the USA. From what I understood from some people though was this is from the bishop.

 

[All4Christ]

I have seen a couple of screwy things and questionable things in Liturgy. One was a well-intentioned song for a man who gave his life saving someone else. But the point is, yes, such things ARE done. It's not just my imagination or internet myth.

I’m not trying to imply that it is your imagination. I could read your words in two different ways; common outcome or already happening. I just wanted clarification So thank you for clarifying!

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Piggy-backing on Rus’s statements, I think what bugs me about the pro-evolution crowd is that they approach Orthodoxy with a legal loophole mindset....

By that I mean that Orthodoxy isn’t a legalistic Church. We dont have a 4,000-page rule book listing every official belief. There are traditional understandings of morality that are non-negotiable, but there are modern ideas not ever officially deliberated and codified....evolution is a good example.

Personally I believe there isn’t a person in this forum anywhere who TRULY believes the Fathers, saints, monastics, Great theologians, and hierarchs of our great faith would be ok with evolution.

But since there isn’t an official position and nobody has outright condemned it, the idea that it’s palatable persists.

And 9 times out of 10, if you talk to these folks, once they let their guard down, they’ll tell you they’re also ok with gay “marriage,” they sympathize with the new pansexual movement, abortion is sometimes understandable, female priests would be great, etc. They’re just not as loud about those topics because they know those ARE taboo.

Politics bleeds into Orthodoxy far too much. Just as some hardliners think to be a good, staunch conservative Orthodox you need to support Putin and all things Russia, you see liberal Orthodox support groups politically that are immoral. Planned Parenthood, BLM, LGBT, and most socialist groups are in of themselves super immoral.

My point.....follow not your “gut” about politics, follow your gut about the Fathers, saints, theologians, and hierarchs....what would St. John Chrysostom say about sodomite marriages, terminating a baby in the womb, men pretending to be women, monkey folk transforming into Homo sapiens, plural marriage, legal dope, and unpatriotic hatred of country kneeling before your flag?

Orthodoxy isn’t a place for loopholes. It is a place for an organic, healthy, tradition-oriented, HONEST inheritance of the deposit of faith. If it’s not true to the Fathers and the consistent spirit of the Faith, may it be an opinion anathemized and shunned.

 

[TheLostCoin]

I have seen a couple of screwy things and questionable things in Liturgy. One was a well-intentioned song for a man who gave his life saving someone else. But the point is, yes, such things ARE done. It's not just my imagination or internet myth.

Yeah, I’ve seen three instances.

The first was at a Ukrainian Catholic Cathedral (at the seat of their local “Patriarch” - their governance is weird), where the introduction hymn was the Battle Hymn of the Republic and the communion hymn was Oh Beautiful for Spacious Skies.

The second time I would say was bordering on it, where at an Antiochian Orthodox Church, “many years” was replaced with “God Bless America.”

The third time was the worst at a Coptic Orthodox Liturgy, where about halfway through the Liturgy, they switched from Coptic chant to piano and guitar with Evangelical Songs that I heard growing up. It was one of the most surreal experiences to see a very Middle Eastern Liturgical experience switch to cheesy American Evangelical pop songs.

 

[gzt]

Thank you for giving us a perspective from someone who actually listens to and reads him. It's refreshing to hear something that isn't just a conspiracy theory about him!

He's on the supply side.

 

[gzt]

That might clear some stuff up for you.

I believe he has always had faith. It might be more appropriate to say that through discernment he has drawn closer to Truth.

Yes, the idiom of newly-found faith is a reference to the fact that he is "newly-illumined", not that he has not believed stuff. Reception into the Orthodox Church is an ontological change, not a mere gradation of one's former state.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Good Lord!!!

Yeah, I’ve seen three instances.

The first was at a Ukrainian Catholic Cathedral (at the seat of their local “Patriarch” - their governance is weird), where the introduction hymn was the Battle Hymn of the Republic and the communion hymn was Oh Beautiful for Spacious Skies.

The second time I would say was bordering on it, where at an Antiochian Orthodox Church, “many years” was replaced with “God Bless America.”

The third time was the worst at a Coptic Orthodox Liturgy, where about halfway through the Liturgy, they switched from Coptic chant to piano and guitar with Evangelical Songs that I heard growing up. It was one of the most surreal experiences to see a very Middle Eastern Liturgical experience switch to cheesy American Evangelical pop songs.

 

[-Image-]

Yes, the idiom of newly-found faith is a reference to the fact that he is "newly-illumined", not that he has not believed stuff. Reception into the Orthodox Church is an ontological change, not a mere gradation of one's former state.

Thanks for expanding on that. So when will you experience the change?