Futurist Only What is the chronological order of Revelation?

[Timtofly]

You might not believe the devil is going to be cast out and trying people but it's been written and will go down as Revelation 12 states.

People overcome Satan on a daily basis. Satan is behind many redeemed being persecuted and thrown in prison for the Gospel's sake. That has been ongoing since the Cross.

 

[JulieB67]

People overcome Satan on a daily basis

This is not talking about every day, this is talking about "the evil day" That day will be sometime in the future when Satan and his angels are cast down,

Ephesians 6:13 "Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God that ye may be able to with stand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.


Revelation 12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Sa'-tan, which deceived the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

This isn't some pesky spirit you're making it out to be bothering people for 2000 years.

This is Satan and his angels cast down. And he's very angry because he has a short time,

Revelation 12:12 "Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

Again, we're not talking about the past 2000 years, we're talking about Satan here defacto for a short time in the future to play savior and he has a very little time to do so.

Paul says he will be disguised as an angel of light. That's the snare that will come upon the entire world and the only way to overcome again is in this verse,

Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

 

[Timtofly]

This is not talking about every day, this is talking about "the evil day" That day will be sometime in the future when Satan and his angels are cast down,

Ephesians 6:13 "Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God that ye may be able to with stand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.


Revelation 12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Sa'-tan, which deceived the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

This isn't some pesky spirit you're making it out to be bothering people for 2000 years.

This is Satan and his angels cast down. And he's very angry because he has a short time,

Revelation 12:12 "Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

Again, we're not talking about the past 2000 years, we're talking about Satan here defacto for a short time in the future to play savior and he has a very little time to do so.

Paul says he will be disguised as an angel of light. That's the snare that will come upon the entire world and the only way to overcome again is in this verse,

Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

You left out the one phrase that claims the last 1992 years. Jesus has been our advocate against Satan's accusations: Revelation 12:10

"And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."

Jesus has been our advocate since the Cross and Resurrection.

Yes, this last time Satan is cast out has not happened yet. So day and night of us being accused is still ongoing. It does not start at the 7th Trumpet. The 7th Trumpet is when it stops!

Paul is declaring that all Christians of all time should be prepared for Satan's attacks.

 

[Jamdoc]

It's about deception, the entire world will be deceived except the elect/saints. They know the truth, the rest of the world will buy into the deception.

Matthew 24:24 "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

But the persecution comes from the devil throwing some into prison but they overcame him by their testimony and loved not their lives to the death.

This is the "evil" day that Paul talks about,

Ephesians 6:11 "Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil."

Ephesians 6:13 "Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God that ye may be able to with stand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Part of that armour is the word of God which is what they use to overcome him -the word of their testimony.

Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."


The torment to the rest of the world is like the torment of when a scorpion stings. Symbolic of how the rest of the world will be paralized/trapped.

Luke 21:35 "For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth."


Those who know the truth -who Antichrist really is cannot be deceived.

And the only ones that don't worship the antichrist/Satan are the ones chosen before the foundation of this world,

Revelation 13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

It doesn't say all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, it says all whose names are not written in the book of life of the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:1 "Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus; and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:"

Ephesians 1:4 "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:"


The set aside ones/saints and the remnant that are Christians that are alive at that time that were chosen before the foundation of the world will give their testimony with the help of the HolySpirit/blood of the lamb and that's how they overcome. Christ states those that endure to the end the same shall be saved.




You might not believe the devil is going to be cast out and trying people but it's been written and will go down as Revelation 12 states.

That is.. not at all what the text conveys. The text conveys demonic torment that makes people want to die, but they're unable to.

It doesn't convey deception that makes them persecute Christians.
The persecution happens during the 5th seal, also retold during Revelation 12 and 13 prior to Jesus appearing in the clouds before the vials.
The trumpets and vials are the Lord avenging the deaths of His people who were martyred in the 5th seal, as those martyred during the 5th seal cry out for Him to do.
Note after the 6th seal, they're no longer crying out for justice, because Jesus has delivered them, and is delivering justice to the Earth.
Their whole attitude changes.

 

[JulieB67]

The trumpets and vials are the Lord avenging the deaths of His people who were martyred in the 5th seal, as those martyred during the 5th seal cry out for Him to do.

God uses his own angels to pour out the wrath, after the 7th trump. And again, I believe the seals are a summary of events that are about to happen. Knowledge and signs that mirror Christ's signs in the gospels.

Again, this is the very same event, it will not happen multiple times.

Revelation 6:14 "And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

Revelation 16:20 "And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found."



Revelation 11:15 "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of Our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

This happens immediately when Christ returns.

Revelation 11:16 "And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,"

Revelation 11:17 "Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned."


Revelation 11:18 "And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

This clearly show the nations being angry and thy wrath "is" come. It's comes when the 7th angel sounds when this earth age has finished. But you have the wrath already being started.

These verses talk about the wrath of God and that it's the vials that are filled with the wrath of God.

Revelation 15:1 "And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God."

The wrath of God is filled in the vials.

Revelation 16:1 "And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth."

God is certainly testing men in the tribulation (using Satan and his angels) but the actual wrath does not start until the 7th trump.

 

[Jamdoc]

God uses his own angels to pour out the wrath, after the 7th trump. And again, I believe the seals are a summary of events that are about to happen. Knowledge and signs that mirror Christ's signs in the gospels.

Again, this is the very same event, it will not happen multiple times.

Revelation 6:14 "And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

Revelation 16:20 "And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found."



Revelation 11:15 "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of Our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

This happens immediately when Christ returns.

Revelation 11:16 "And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,"

Revelation 11:17 "Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned."


Revelation 11:18 "And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

This clearly show the nations being angry and thy wrath "is" come. It's comes when the 7th angel sounds when this earth age has finished. But you have the wrath already being started.

These verses talk about the wrath of God and that it's the vials that are filled with the wrath of God.

Revelation 15:1 "And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God."

The wrath of God is filled in the vials.

Revelation 16:1 "And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth."

God is certainly testing men in the tribulation (using Satan and his angels) but the actual wrath does not start until the 7th trump.

You rely so heavily on allegorizing the seals and trumpets.. but before the trumpets blow it is described as the wrath of the lamb, the lamb, being God. That is one of the points of Revelation, just to say Jesus is God over and over, pairing Him with old testament prophecy of when it is the Lord Almighty who is doing those things here they have it be the Lamb of God. The parallels that exist between the trumpets and vials don't really line up and make parallels with the seals.

 

[Douggg]

animal sacrifice? So what?, the megalomaniac pretend god will demand the temple be fully rebuilt before he will set foot in it. A tent just won't do, only the best for him.

The animal sacrifices have to be started again so that the Antichrist can stop those in the middle of the 7 years.

I am not saying that the sanctuary building will be a tent, but made of stone. There is a thread which talks about the temple in Revelation that John was told to measure. I would suggest to read through that thread.

There is not enough time like the so called herold's temple (the second temple) - 40 years to build - to fit within the seven years.

 

[Sorn]

The animal sacrifices have to be started again so that the Antichrist can stop those in the middle of the 7 years.

I am not saying that the sanctuary building will be a tent, but made of stone. There is a thread which talks about the temple in Revelation that John was told to measure. I would suggest to read through that thread.

There is not enough time like the so called herold's temple (the second temple) - 40 years to build - to fit within the seven years.

40 years with hand tools & manual labor, 1 or 2 years with modern heavy machinery.

 

[Timtofly]

The animal sacrifices have to be started again so that the Antichrist can stop those in the middle of the 7 years.

I am not saying that the sanctuary building will be a tent, but made of stone. There is a thread which talks about the temple in Revelation that John was told to measure. I would suggest to read through that thread.

There is not enough time like the so called herold's temple (the second temple) - 40 years to build - to fit within the seven years.

The verse does not say "daily" nor "animal".

Think of it more like God has removed grace and mercy. Humans have come up with some terrific horror imaginations. Think of life without any good or any morality at all. The only alter call after a sermon is having one's head cut off.

This is not calling for the end of the OT economy centered around a temple. That was removed at the Cross. This is the removal of the NT Atonement Covenant. There is no more salvation by grace through faith, during these 42 months. There is not even a moral law. It will be living in a horror nightmare. Being deceived is the merciful part. This will be the time of abomination and desolation. And worse than the GT.

 

[Jamdoc]

The animal sacrifices have to be started again so that the Antichrist can stop those in the middle of the 7 years.

I am not saying that the sanctuary building will be a tent, but made of stone. There is a thread which talks about the temple in Revelation that John was told to measure. I would suggest to read through that thread.

There is not enough time like the so called herold's temple (the second temple) - 40 years to build - to fit within the seven years.

Temple institute says they can rebuild Solomon's temple (which is smaller than Herod's but it is the original) within 2 years.

 

[DavidPT]

Temple institute says they can rebuild Solomon's temple (which is smaller than Herod's but it is the original) within 2 years.

Except they just can't build it anywhere they want and expect it to be legit, not that it would be legit even if they built in where the two previous ones were. But as pretty much everyone knows, Al Aqsa Mosque is now located approximately where those temples previously stood.

 

[Jamdoc]

Except they just can't build it anywhere they want and expect it to be legit, not that it would be legit even if they built in where the two previous ones were. But as pretty much everyone knows, Al Aqsa Mosque is now located approximately where those temples previously stood.

Right I just mean that the reason they don't is political, not any material problem.

 

[DavidPT]

I am not saying that the sanctuary building will be a tent, but made of stone.

We better hope it's at least big enough and good enough for your literal man of sin to literally sit in it. At least your theory might solve the Al Aqsa Mosque problem since it might not require having to tear any of that down.

 

[ewq1938]

Also if you know of a video that explains the chronology of Revelation that you found expecially insightful, please list that as well.

Chronology of Revelation

 

[Douggg]

40 years with hand tools & manual labor, 1 or 2 years with modern heavy machinery.

I had read somewhere that the Jews hold a Jewish religious law that all of the work on the temple mount cannot be done with modern heavy machinery because it would make noise.

One of those things like religious Jews can't drive a car on the Sabbath, nor open their refrigerator (because the refrigerator light comes on and to them they consider because the element in the light heats up - that is a violation of not starting a fire on the Sabbath).

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In Ezekiel 39 is the timeline framework for end times events.

1st Gog/Magog.
2nd the seven years.
3rd the Armageddon event.

In verses 21-29 is Jesus Himself speaking in the text having returned to this earth to judge the heathen in verses 17-20 (Armageddon).

The temple that the Antichrist desecrates could be built before Gog/Magog or after. It is something that we cannot say for sure, before or after.

Right now though, the actions of Russia, appear to be preliminary to the Gog/Magog event.

 

[Douggg]

The verse does not say "daily" nor "animal".

Do you not agree that the act of 2Thessalonians2:4 of going into the temple, sitting claiming to be God, is future, to be done by the Antichrist ?

That action is the "transgression" of desolation in Daniel 8:11-13 which does say "daily sacrifice"


11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

 

[Sorn]

Right now though, the actions of Russia, appear to be preliminary to the Gog/Magog event.

Yes, they probably are preliminary, by about 50 or 60 years maybe.

 

[Timtofly]

Do you not agree that the act of 2Thessalonians2:4 of going into the temple, sitting claiming to be God, is future, to be done by the Antichrist ?

That action is the "transgression" of desolation in Daniel 8:11-13 which does say "daily sacrifice"


11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

Antiochus Epiphanes was a real person that really fulfilled all that was written. But only a type of a future process. The whole process is not going to repeat exactly the same way.

The problem with current interpretation, is that Jesus is going to set up His throne and His Temple. No one else is doing that for Jesus. Then after the 7th Trumpet starts to sound, that sounding is a week of days. That is what gets split in the midst of that week. Then Satan will sit on the throne in the Temple Jesus set up. Instead of the Atonement of Christ the Prince, we will have utter desolation with Satan's dictatorship.

Antiochus Epiphanes stopped the daily sacrifice. Satan's 42 months will totally remove God's mercy and grace from the earth. Antiochus Epiphanes effected Jerusalem. Satan will effect the whole earth.

Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2 was talking about Satan already at work. Because Satan was already working behind the scenes giving his power and authority to Antiochus Epiphanes. Historically extra-biblically Pergamon was already the seat of Satan's control. Satan then worked behind the scenes for Rome. The point is that Satan will do it again with a FP. But the AoD is the image. That image becomes the beast. Or the AC figure people talk about. The problem is that most people interpret the chronological narrative of Revelation, and change it to fit other Scripture. John put the chronological order correct. The order of past history should not be used to correct Revelation. Even the Olivet Discourse is "pieced together" and not chronological.

When that image is set up in Jerusalem, common sense people should flee. Those deceived into worshipping Satan will not flee. They will gladly take the mark. But not all people will be on board. Those are the one's to flee from this desolate authority about to rule the earth. Fleeing only gives people time to think. They will still have to choose between having their head cut off or receiving the mark. But the mark means one's name has been removed from the Lamb's book of life. There is no going back after that point. God is not going to remove the mark, and place one's name back into the Lamb's book of life.

 

[Douggg]

The problem with current interpretation, is that Jesus is going to set up His throne and His Temple. No one else is doing that for Jesus. Then after the 7th Trumpet starts to sound, that sounding is a week of days. That is what gets split in the midst of that week. Then Satan will sit on the throne in the Temple Jesus set up. Instead of the Atonement of Christ the Prince, we will have utter desolation with Satan's dictatorship.

Wait a minute... Tim, where are you getting that?

Daniel 8 is about the little horn - at the time of the end - stopping the daily sacrifice and committing the transgression of desolation.

btw, Antiochus, in Daniel 11:31, prefigured what the abomination of desolation would be, not the transgression of desolation, by placing a statue of Zeus in the temple.

31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

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The transgression of desolation comes first. The Antichrist going into the temple, sitting, claiming to be God.

Then he is killed for it.

Then comes back to life, becoming the beast.

Then the image of him as the beast made and placed on the temple mount, as the abomination of desolation.

 

[Douggg]

But the AoD is the image. That image becomes the beast. Or the AC figure people talk about. The problem is that most people interpret the chronological narrative of Revelation, and change it to fit other Scripture. John put the chronological order correct.

The image does not become the beast. The image is made to the beast... basically an idol of him.

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Satan will incarnate that image in order to be worshiped.

Tim, I want you to look at scripture, and find what happens to that image (statue)...

We know that it is going to be made. So what happens to it ?