What is the Christian God's end game?

[maddog11]

That's too broad a scope, if you've ever studied Hitler's speeches and 'Mein Kampf', he was saying the same thing. You see when it comes to any such conditions are they man made or are they of God?

Today many religions and Atheists largely share among themselves a similiar but not always the same moral code. A good example would be, even among some Atheists there are those who do not approve of abortion.

"for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)" (Ro 2:14-15)

In other words on the most simplistic level. A person doesn't even need to know the bible exists but at the same time their conduct agrees with the moral understanding that is explained within the writings. The end game goes further than that, even if it were possible for all mankind to share in virtuous behavior, stop human suffering and be at peace, that leaves someone out. Establishing men's ideas about the ultimate measuring stick, how they interpret God above (superseding) His own ideas about what constitues righteousness and justification.

"Would you indeed annul My judgment? Would you condemn Me that you may be justified?" (Job 40:8)


"... I am the Lord, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved images. Behold, the former things have come to pass, And new things I declare; Before they spring forth I tell you of them" (Is 42:7-9)

But when the whole scope between man and his Maker is bridged, the end game condition is, "... the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." (1 Cor 15:52)




As in Isaih, "And My glory I will not give to another", it's about a very real acknowledgement by all peoples to know and understand who Jesus Christ is. "And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS."

However the specifics of 1 Pe 4:11 is more a comment directed to those who already know and understand that. That their conduct should already be 100% re[f]lecting of Him in what they do.

How is this different from being regular human beings with more virtue?

 

[maddog11]

No, that's not what I said at all.

At the final resurrection all that is wrong with the world - all evil and sin, all idolatory, all death and suffering, all that marrs the world - will be done away with in a fresh act of God's creative Word allowing life the full. Live compared to which this is a shadow. The veil between heaven and earth will be lifted. All the faithful dead will rise as Jesus rose to be part of that restored, redeemed, creation.

That's what Easter and Jesus' resurrection anticipates. The life of that future Kingdom is what Christian lives are called to anticipate.

What is a "restored, redeemed creation" like? are the human beings not human beings any more? are they not more virtuous than before?

 

[ebia]

What is a "restored, redeemed creation" like?

Something we can't even guess at beyond the poetic glimpses we get in Genesis 2, 1 Corinthians 15, Revelations 21 & 22, bits of Isaiah and some other prophets, etc.

are the human beings not human beings any more?

Yes we are human - more human, not less. For fully in the image of God. But again, that's something we can only glimpse in the language of Genesis 2, the post-resurrection descriptions of Jesus, etc.

are they not more virtuous than before?

Yes, but much more than that, freed from idolatory, sin and all that comes from that - suffering and death - to be fully what we were always created to be.

 

[maddog11]

Something we can't even guess at beyond the poetic glimpses we get in Genesis 2, 1 Corinthians 15, Revelations 21 & 22, bits of Isaiah and some other prophets, etc.



Yes we are human - more human, not less. For fully in the image of God. But again, that's something we can only glimpse in the language of Genesis 2, the post-resurrection descriptions of Jesus, etc.


Yes, but much more than that, freed from idolatory, sin and all that comes from that - suffering and death - to be fully what we were always created to be.

Why does God need or want this?

 

[ebia]

Why does God need or want this?

To be extravagantly creative is part of his nature. To want the best for his creation is also part of his nature.

 

[Bible2]

maddog11 posted in message #20 of this thread:

So God's end game is to have some people eternally praise, honor
and worship him, and him to eternally torture others in a lake of fire?

Greetings.

Yes, and the eternal torment of the wicked in the lake of fire will
also bring honor to God as it will eternally show his holy, righteous
wrath against sin, and will eternally make his power known: "What
if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known,
endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to
destruction" (Romans 9:22).

maddog11 posted in message #20 of this thread:

Your statement of the division between the praisers and the
tormented is as between the "obedient" and the "disobedient." This
indicates that the cardinal virtue of Christianity is obedience. That is
what God values. Is that correct?

Yes, only the obedient will be saved, for Jesus "became the author
of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" (Hebrews 5:9).
"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for
his friends. Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you"
(John 15:13-14). "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord,
shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of
my Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 7:21). "He that hath my
commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he
that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and
will manifest myself to him. Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord,
how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the
world? Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will
keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto
him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth
not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the
Father's which sent me" (John 14:21-24). God "will render to every
man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance
in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but
obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath" (Romans 2:6-8).

Note that the above passage indicates that we either obey the
truth or obey unrighteousness, as in sin. We are either those who
are the servants of God and righteousness, or we are those who are
the servants of Satan and sin, those who are trapped in "the snare
of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will" (2 Timothy
2:26); "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to
obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto
death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked,
that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the
heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then
made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. I
speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your
flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness
and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members
servants to righteousness unto holiness. For when ye were the
servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye
then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of
those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and
become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the
end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of
God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Romans 6:16-23).

Those who are the servants of Satan and sin will end up with Satan
and his fallen angels in the eternal torment of the lake of fire: "And
the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and
brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be
tormented day and night for ever and ever ... And whosoever was
not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire"
(Revelation 20:10,15); "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting
fire, prepared for the devil and his angels ... And these shall go
away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal"
(Matthew 25:41,46).

 

[Bible2]

maddog11 posted in message #22 of this thread:

What is a "restored, redeemed creation" like?

The new earth will be a place where those who were obedient
Christians on this old earth will live in bliss with God in the city of
New Jerusalem: "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the
first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was
no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming
down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her
husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold,
the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and
they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be
their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and
there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither
shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.
And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the
beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the
fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit
all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son" (Revelation
21:1-7). "Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is
fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore"
(Psalms 16:11).

But the new earth will at the same time be a place where those who
were disobedient to God (and so were obedient to Satan) will be
tormented in the lake of fire forever: "the fearful, and unbelieving,
and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and
sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake
which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death"
(Revelation 21:8); "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of
God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his
indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the
presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And
the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and
they have no rest day nor night" (Revelation 14:10-11).

The lake of fire (Gehenna) will be located on the new earth just
outside the wall of New Jerusalem: "Blessed are they that do his
commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and
may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs,
and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and
whosoever loveth and maketh a lie" (Revelation 22:14-15). Those
who were obedient Christians on this old earth will go forth from New
Jerusalem on the new earth to see the wicked being tormented in
the lake of fire: "For as the new heavens and the new earth, which
I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your
seed and your name remain ... And they shall go forth, and look
upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me:
for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched;
and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh" (Isaiah 66:22,24);
"cast into hell [Gehenna], into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark
9:45-46).

 

[Bible2]

maddog11 posted in message #22 of this thread:

are the human beings not human beings any more?

Both the saved and unsaved human beings on the new earth will
still be fully human; their bodies will just have been resurrected or
changed into physical bodies which last forever. Christians will
receive their eternal, physical bodies at the second coming of Jesus:
"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But
every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they
that are Christ's at his coming ... We shall not all sleep [die], but we
shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the
last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised
incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible [body]
must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality"
(1 Corinthians 15:22-23,51-53). After the second coming, Christians
in their immortal, resurrected, physical bodies will reign on the earth
with Jesus for the millennium, or 1000 years (Revelation 20:4-6,
5:10, 2:26-29). After the millennium and subsequent events
(Revelation 20:7-10), all non-Christians of all times will be
resurrected into eternal, physical bodies, at the great white throne
judgment (Revelation 20:11-15). While their physical bodies will be
eternal, they will not be immortal, in the sense that the lake of fire
into which they will be cast (Revelation 20:15) is the second death
(Revelation 21:8), no life at all, but an eternal dying, an eternity of
being trapped in a dead body being eaten by maggots and burned
by fire (Mark 9:45-46).

The eternal, physical bodies which all humans will eventually receive
will be able to restore themselves no matter what happens to them.
This will be a great blessing to obedient Christians during the
millennium and new earth, for if they have some accident, such as
breaking their leg or having their hand chopped off, their body will
rapidly restore itself with no problem. But this same quality of rapid
restoration will be awful for the unsaved in the lake of fire, for as
soon as maggots eat up a part of their flesh, their flesh will restore
itself, and then their flesh will be eaten by maggots again, restored
again, eaten again, and so on for eternity. And as soon as the fire
burns up a part of their flesh, their flesh will restore itself, and then
will be burned by fire again, restored again, burned again, and so on
for eternity. This is why it says: "their worm dieth not, and the fire
is not quenched" (Mark 9:44); the maggots will never run out of
food, and the fire will never run out of fuel.

maddog11 posted in message #22 of this thread:

are they not more virtuous than before?

The eternal, physical bodies which all humans will eventually receive
will neither make them more virtuous nor less virtuous than they
were in their temporary, mortal bodies. For our virtue, our obedience
to God, is not based upon what bodies we have, but on how we
employ our God-given free will in whatever body we might have.

 

[Bible2]

maddog11 posted in message #24 of this thread:

Why does God need or want this?

God doesn't need anything, but he still created everything for his
pleasure: "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and
power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they
are and were created" (Revelation 4:11). And God wants to eternally
give pleasure to those who obey him: "in thy presence is fulness of
joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore" (Psalms
16:11). God will take no pleasure in the torment of the wicked per se,
"For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord
GOD" (Ezekiel 18:32). But it will give God pleasure to be able, through
the torment of the wicked, eternally "to shew his wrath, and to make
his power known" (Romans 9:22).

 

[Norbert L]

How is this different from being regular human beings with more virtue?

It isn't on many levels other than two, authority and salvation.

Look again at the verse from Job, "Would you indeed annul My judgment? Would you condemn Me that you may be justified?"

When a mortal virtuous man believes his right to immortal life is clearly evident and God should have no say so in the matter. That is when virtuous behavior becomes self seeking vanity.

Man's will no matter how virtuous his is, would be incapable of saving him.

Also looking back to the comment in Job, a man just by professing he knows God and what he believes about Him, may just be his own version of righteousness and not God's at all.

As evidenced in reality within the Christian coummunity themself! You see being virtous of and by itself is only a measurement of moral behavior, it can not reveal the major controversies within Christianity about God's will on other subjects.

In the end game will people burn in hell for eternity or will they be annihilated? Will believers go automatically to heaven or do they sleep and meet Christ here on earth? Has God really offered salvation to all flesh?

"And all flesh shall see the salvation of God" (Lu 3:6)

Did those ancient men who practiced the well documented practice of funeral canibalism see the salvation of God because they thought virtous behavior includes ceremonially honoring eating his dead?

funeral cannibalism

You see being virtuous of and by itself is relative and just because someone says this is God's will does not necessarily make it a part of His end game.

 

[brinny]

What is the anticipated end result of God's scheme for mankind, in the Christian view?

Haven't you read Revelations?

 

[maddog11]

Why does God need or want this?

To be extravagantly creative is part of his nature. To want the best for his creation is also part of his nature.

What is "extravagantly creative" about some perfected human beings eternally praising God, and some human beings eternally tormented in a lake of fire? What is "best" for human beings about eternal praise/eternal torment?

 

[maddog11]

So God's end game is to have some people eternally praise, honor and worship him, and him to eternally torture others in a lake of fire?

Greetings.

Yes,

QFT

Yes, and the eternal torment of the wicked in the lake of fire will also bring honor to God as it will eternally show his holy, righteous wrath against sin, and will eternally make his power known: "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known,
endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to
destruction" (Romans 9:22).

How does eternally torturing conscious, sentient, feeling beings bring "honor"? what does "honor" mean in this context? Is it merely power? I am more powerful than you? What is "holy" and "righteous" about God's wrath? Why is God wrathful about some sin but not other sin? What is "sin"?

Your statement of the division between the praisers and the tormented is as between the "obedient" and the "disobedient." This indicates that the cardinal virtue of Christianity is obedience. That is what God values. Is that correct?

Yes,

QFT

Yes, only the obedient will be saved, for Jesus "became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" (Hebrews 5:9).
"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for
his friends. Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you"
(John 15:13-14). "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord,
shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of
my Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 7:21). "He that hath my
commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he
that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and
will manifest myself to him. Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord,
how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the
world? Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will
keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto
him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth
not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the
Father's which sent me" (John 14:21-24). God "will render to every
man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance
in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but
obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath" (Romans 2:6-8).

Note that the above passage indicates that we either obey the
truth or obey unrighteousness, as in sin. We are either those who
are the servants of God and righteousness, or we are those who are
the servants of Satan and sin, those who are trapped in "the snare
of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will" (2 Timothy
2:26); "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to
obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto
death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked,
that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the
heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then
made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. I
speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your
flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness
and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members
servants to righteousness unto holiness. For when ye were the
servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye
then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of
those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and
become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the
end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of
God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Romans 6:16-23).

Those who are the servants of Satan and sin will end up with Satan
and his fallen angels in the eternal torment of the lake of fire: "And
the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and
brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be
tormented day and night for ever and ever ... And whosoever was
not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire"
(Revelation 20:10,15); "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting
fire, prepared for the devil and his angels ... And these shall go
away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal"
(Matthew 25:41,46).

What does "obey the truth" mean? How does one know what is "the truth"?

 

[maddog11]

Why does God need or want this?

God doesn't need anything, but he still created everything for his
pleasure: "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and
power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they
are and were created" (Revelation 4:11). And God wants to eternally
give pleasure to those who obey him: "in thy presence is fulness of
joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore" (Psalms
16:11). God will take no pleasure in the torment of the wicked per se,
"For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord
GOD" (Ezekiel 18:32). But it will give God pleasure to be able, through
the torment of the wicked, eternally "to shew his wrath, and to make
his power known" (Romans 9:22).

If God needs nothing, why does he want pleasure? Why does God take pleasure in the eternal torment of many of his children? What is pleasurable to God about showing wrath and making his power known?

 

[ephraimanesti]

What does "obey the truth" mean? How does one know what is "the truth"?

Strange--Pilate asked the exact same question just before condemning Our Lord to death.

Our Lord, elsewhere, answered this question by stating, "I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE."(John 14:6)

A BOND-SLAVE/FRIEND/BROTHER OF OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
ephraim

 

[maddog11]

What is the anticipated end result of God's scheme for mankind, in the Christian view?

Haven't you read Revelations?

Yes, I have read Revelation. Not all varieties of Christian take it literally, nor does it mean the same thing to every believer. It very nearly was not included in the scriptural canon -- there was serious disagreement about it even from the fourth century.

Some human beings will have perfect bodies and (even though with free will) will behave 100% virtuously, whereas some other human beings will have not-living and not-dying bodies and be eternally tortured with maggots and fire.

Do human beings still eat, sleep, work, play, whatever? Do they spend 100% percent of their time bowing down and praising? What happens to all the animals? There is no currently existing unseen realm of "heaven" -- it will all be in real earth in real time, the "New Jerusalem," is that right? There is no currently existing invisible underground "hell," but the lake of fire will exist in the real earth in real time, outside the "New Jerusalem," is that right?

 

[maddog11]

What does "obey the truth" mean? How does one know what is "the truth"?

Strange--Pilate asked the exact same question just before condemning Our Lord to death.

Our Lord, elsewhere, answered this question by stating, "I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE."(John 14:6)

A BOND-SLAVE/FRIEND/BROTHER OF OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
ephraim

How does that help anyone know what, precisely, is "the truth"? Christians do not agree among themselves. What is the universally regarded "truth"?

 

[ephraimanesti]

How does that help anyone know what, precisely, is "the truth"? Christians do not agree among themselves. What is the universally regarded "truth"?

MY FRIEND,

JESUS is the TRUTH.

PERIOD!

Following His Resurrection and Ascension He sent, from the right hand of the Father, the Holy Spirit which He called "The Spirit of Truth"(John 14:17) and which He promised would lead Christians "Into all Truth."(John 16:13) This has been proven True in my experience and in the experiences of millions of other Christians over the past 2000 or so years.

Christians who "do not agree among themselves" are, unfortunately, listening to other voices--either their own or the enemy's. All one need to do to identify and separate error from Truth is to refer back to the source of all Truth--Jesus Christ--and compare notes. The difference is obvious--assuming it is the Truth which is being honestly sought and not personal vindication for one's personal beliefs or desires.

ephraim

 

[maddog11]

MY FRIEND,

JESUS is the TRUTH.

PERIOD!


ephraim

What does this mean? How does it help anyone in any choice or decision?

 

[ephraimanesti]

What does this mean? How does it help anyone in any choice or decision?

MY FRIEND,

It simply means that Jesus, as the source of all Truth, is the only source of legitimate guidance for those in doubt regarding choices and decisions which they must make.

The indwelling Holy Spirit has been given for just this purpose, and, when in doubt, God's wonderful promise--"ASK AND YOU WILL RECEIVE"(John 16:24)--applies when seeking answers, guidance, and solutions. As James states, "IF ANY OF YOU LACKS WISDOM, HE SHOULD ASK GOD, WHO GIVES GENEROUSLY TO ALL WITHOUT FINDING FAULT, AND IT WILL BE GIVEN TO HIM."(James 1:5)

Of course there is a small catch--you have to believe in the existence of the Giver before you can receive the gift.

ephraim