What is the Christian God's end game?

[maddog11]

Thank you.



"never hav[ing] to sin" is not the same thing as "never sinning." My question was, DO they sin, not do they "have to" sin.

what real human beings now *never* sin? How are they able to avoid *sin*?

The Bible doesn't say either way that all of the saved people in New
Jerusalem will sin or never sin, or that some will sin while others will
never sin. But because they will all still have free will, it will be
possible for all of them to sin.

What will happen if they do sin?

Jesus is a real human being (Romans 1:3) who never sins
(Hebrews 4:15). But there may be no human being physically on the
earth today who never sins (Ecclesiastes 7:20).

by "real human being now" I was meaning to refer to your statement:

"Because of their continued free will, it will be possible for the saved
humans in New Jerusalem to sin, but they won't have to ever sin,
just as saved humans now don't have to ever sin"

but you now seem to agree with me that "real human beings now" -- even "saved humans now" -- are NOT capable of never-sinning. If that is the case, then what distinguishes a "saved" person from an "unsaved" person? Both still sin, i.e. disobey.

Christians are able to avoid sinning by drawing upon the power of
the Holy Spirit (Galatians 5:16, Romans 8:13), the power of Jesus
(John 8:34-36, 1 John 3:6-10).

ARE Christians actually able to avoid sinning? I have never met a human being, even Christians, who are completely able to avoid sinning. (Using your def. of "sin" = "disobey God.)

Christians appear to continue to behave pretty much the same way as all other human beings, with the same issues, faults and mistakes. They do not behave noticeably differently from other human beings.

 

[maddog11]

[T]he mechanics you describe do not seem to result in sure knowledge or guidance. Equally sincere, equally believing Christians do just as you say, and resort only to Jesus as "truth," yet come to different answers on various questions. They pray devoutly, sincerely, they seek to do what God/Jesus tells them, and yet they have received different answers to the same question. ...
Thus, [ephraimanesti's] statement, "Jesus is the Truth, Period." has not apparently provided clear guidance to know what is right.

Greetings.

Sure knowledge and guidance is found in the Bible (2 Timothy 3:15-4:4).

Are you always sure of your knowledge of what to do in every situation?

 

[brinny]

it is not a game. it is as real as you or i breathing, in this very moment. The end comes. For all of us. And after that comes the judgement. It is then that everyone, you, me, everyone will be judged for all that we have ever thought, spoke, done. We will be judged by a holy God. For some, a Defender will be speaking and defending against accusations of the accuser. For others the accuser will have full reign against them because they will have no Defender. And the Holy One, God Almighty will pronounce sentence.

 

[ephraimanesti]

Are you always sure of your knowledge of what to do in every situation?

MY SISTER,

Yes--eventually. Some situations are more complicated than others--i.e., a myriad of voices expressing conflicting ideas--and prayer and often fasting are necessary to cut through the background static--some self-generated, some generated by the enemy--and reach the Truth. i have found a prayer of St. Silouan fool/fail-proof in such situations:

"Oh Lord, Who art merciful and compassionate, Thou seest my soul is perplexed and in fear of doing wrong. Enlighten me, O Lord.
"Lord, I am a sinful man, and have no right understanding, but Thou, O Merciful One, do Thou shew me what to do."​

A BOND-SLAVE/FRIEND/BROTHER OF OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
ephraim

 

[maddog11]

it is not a game. it is as real as you or i breathing, in this very moment. The end comes. For all of us. And after that comes the judgement. It is then that everyone, you, me, everyone will be judged for all that we have ever thought, spoke, done. We will be judged by a holy God. For some, a Defender will be speaking and defending against accusations of the accuser. For others the accuser will have full reign against them because they will have no Defender. And the Holy One, God Almighty will pronounce sentence.

Hello brinny. "End-game" is a figure of speech. I am trying to understand what the end ultimate result is. What is God's ultimate intention, and what state of affairs will prevail when everything that God intends has been realized.

an aside -- I believe "full rein" is correct in this context though I could be mistaken.

back to the main point.

you say "the end will come." Is it really an "end"?

you say everyone will be judged, and "sentence pronounced."
Why is this important? What sentences will be pronounced? What will happen after the sentences are pronounced?

 

[maddog11]

MY SISTER,

Yes--eventually. Some situations are more complicated than others--i.e., a myriad of voices expressing conflicting ideas--and prayer and often fasting are necessary to cut through the background static--some self-generated, some generated by the enemy--and reach the Truth. i have found a prayer of St. Silouan fool/fail-proof in such situations:

"Oh Lord, Who art merciful and compassionate, Thou seest my soul is perplexed and in fear of doing wrong. Enlighten me, O Lord.
"Lord, I am a sinful man, and have no right understanding, but Thou, O Merciful One, do Thou shew me what to do."​

A BOND-SLAVE/FRIEND/BROTHER OF OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
ephraim

How are you "shown" what to do? I heard a man on the radio say "God spoke to me this morning." I was pretty surprised at that.

 

[maddog11]

Do human beings still eat, sleep, work, play, whatever?

Yes. In the eternal state, saved humans will still eat, work, and play.
They may not have to sleep, however, as their eternal bodies and
brains may be able to maintain themselves without sleep.

Do they spend 100% percent of their time bowing down and praising?

No. Saved humans in the eternal state will live in a literal city on a
new earth (Revelation 21:2-4,10-26) with the garden of paradise in
the midst of the city (Revelation 22:2, 2:7), and so they will do all
of the good things which humans do in cities and nature-parks today.

Why would the eternal human beings, who may have no need of sleep, NOT spend 100% of their time bowing down and praising God? Doesn't this take away from God's glory? (You defined "glory" as praising God, and the end purpose of everything is to glorify God.) Why would they do anything else? Wouldn't that be disobedient to the glorification of God?

 

[brinny]

Originally Posted by brinny
it is not a game. it is as real as you or i breathing, in this very moment. The end comes. For all of us. And after that comes the judgement. It is then that everyone, you, me, everyone will be judged for all that we have ever thought, spoke, done. We will be judged by a holy God. For some, a Defender will be speaking and defending against accusations of the accuser. For others the accuser will have full reign against them because they will have no Defender. And the Holy One, God Almighty will pronounce sentence.

Hello brinny. "End-game" is a figure of speech. I am trying to understand what the end ultimate result is. What is God's ultimate intention, and what state of affairs will prevail when everything that God intends has been realized.

an aside -- I believe "full rein" is correct in this context though I could be mistaken.

back to the main point.

you say "the end will come." Is it really an "end"?

you say everyone will be judged, and "sentence pronounced."
Why is this important? What sentences will be pronounced? What will happen after the sentences are pronounced?

the word chosen is "reign" as the one without the Defender, will have none defending them and they will be forced to stand and hear the un-ending accusations...for they are true...and the accused one like Marley, in A Christmas Carol, with his cash boxes and chains dragging in back of him...and in that sense they are under that "reign" of unending accusations, by the accuser, as a holy God watches.

End, of course, means drawing one's last breath. We all face that day, that hour, that moment, that second in time.

This may clarify for you what "judgement" means...it's in the book of Revelation:

YouTube - The Judgment Seat of Christ - Leonard Ravenhill (FULL)

 

[maddog11]

the word chosen is "reign" as the one without the Defender, will have none defending them and they will be forced to stand and hear the un-ending accusations...for they are true...and the accused one like Marley, in A Christmas Carol, with his cash boxes and chains dragging in back of him...and in that sense they are under that "reign" of unending accusations, by the accuser, as a holy God watches.

End, of course, means drawing one's last breath. We all face that day, that hour, that moment, that second in time.

This may clarify for you what "judgement" means...it's in the book of Revelation:

YouTube - The Judgment Seat of Christ - Leonard Ravenhill (FULL)

No access to video.

Please describe?

You are describing the "end" as drawing a last breath, but you also appear to be describing events and people AFTER that ... so it is not the end, really, is it? I want to understand what the last existing circumstances are. The "end" I am looking for is the condition after which there is nothing further, nothing new.

 

[brinny]

No access to video.

Please describe?

You are describing the "end" as drawing a last breath, but you also appear to be describing events and people AFTER that ... so it is not the end, really, is it? I want to understand what the last existing circumstances are. The "end" I am looking for is the condition after which there is nothing further, nothing new.

i'm sorry you cannot see the video. the "end" meaning the end of life in the flesh as we, who are but flesh, but dust, know it. After physical death comes resurrection for the righteous and resurrection for the damned. then everyone has their "day" in court, so to speak. The damned have no hope. they will be accused of every thought, word, and deed, ever committed, and an accuser will be announcing every single one. And there will be no Defender. Then sentence is passed. The damned are thrown into the everlasting lake of fire by God himself, to everlasting torment. The redeemed enter into the everlasting presence of God, Father, Abba, as stated in His Word.

 

[ANM29]

thank you for your response.

What does this mean? In particular, what does "love" mean in this context? What does it mean to "know God in Spirit and in Truth"?

You are welcome.

I will try to explain as best I can, because the best way to know what his love means is to experience it for yourself personally.

You need a personal revelation of God and that will begin your journey to understand his love for you. It is one thing to tell you of his love from my experience, but God wants you to know him for yourself, his love for you, which can only be really understood through a Spiritual awakening in you of who GOD IS, that is the start of it anyway. From there through the Holy Spirit, It is a continious unfolding and developing revelation of his LOVE for you over time.

Because God is a Spirit, he is known through your spirit...( Since we are Spirits as God is ) and that love becomes a natural reality for you. He said we must worship him in Spirit and Truth..( Which is more than just praising him verbally, but a lifestyle of knowing him and living for him) which can only be done by his Spirit living through you...Your RE-BORN spirit.

Our Spirits must be RE-BORN to know his love for us, if not, we are void of this. We do not understand it, it makes no sense.

There are certain things that you will never understand until you have taken a step of faith toward God. He does not allow himself to be known to someone who heart is hard and who has not taken a step of faith toward him.

He is always knocking on the hearts of man, one way or another, he is always tapping us on our shoulder trying to get the attention of man. But, we don't always respond. Sometimes the heart is hard towards him. We must take that step of faith toward him, he longs for you to know him..He longs for it, He sent his Son that you don't have to walk around with a void in your life an emptiness. That emptiness can only be filled when you allow God into your heart.

 

[ephraimanesti]

How are you "shown" what to do? I heard a man on the radio say "God spoke to me this morning." I was pretty surprised at that.

MY SISTER,

Why were you "pretty surprised"? i cannot comment on what you heard because i do not know the person who made the statement. However, the Bible--and the last 2000 years of Church history--are full of people to whom God has spoken directly. However, God has an infinite number of ways of communicating with those who are listening for His Voice. Once you are listening--once you are open--once you are seeking His will and purpose for your life, the directions come as needed--primarily through the auspices of the indwelling Holy Spirit. i'm sure that each person experiences the leading of the Spirit in different ways, but for myself, i would characterize the Godly Directives as purposeful and quite perceptible "nudges" in the correct direction. If the "nudges" are ignored or contravened, they eventually taper off and disappear and the opportunity is lost. If this lost opportunity to do God's will in a given situation is sincerely repented of, the status-quo is restored. If not, contact is lost until repentence is eventually forced by the sense of terrible loss or--GOD FORBID!--the heart is hardened.

i see the above is an inadequate explanation, but it is the best i can do not being much of a theologian.

A BOND-SLAVE/FRIEND/BROTHER OF OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
ephraim

 

[Bible2]

maddog11 posted in message #56 of this thread:

Which view is right (i.e., obedient to God) and how does someone
know?

Greetings.

Christians know the right view through the Bible (2 Timothy 3:16).

maddog11 posted in message #56 of this thread:

They have renounced wealth and worldly goods and give to the poor.

While Luke 18:22 was spoken to only one indvidual, Luke 14:33
applies to all Christians.

maddog11 posted in message #56 of this thread:

there is no human being who demonstrates perfect obedience to God

Jesus is a human being (Romans 1:3) who demonstrates perfect
obedience to God (Hebrews 4:15b).

maddog11 posted in message #56 of this thread:

(i.e., knows from God's instruction exactly what to do in every
situation to avoid "sin.")

It is possible for Christians to know from God's instruction in the Bible
exactly what to do in every situation to avoid sin (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

maddog11 posted in message #56 of this thread:

Everybody, Christian or not, sins (disobeys) anyway.

Christians do not have to sin (John 8:34-36). If they do commit a
sin, they can repent from it, confess it to God, and be forgiven for
it (1 John 1:9).

 

[Bible2]

maddog11 posted in message #57 of this thread:

what does "love" mean in this context?

"God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet
sinners, Christ died for us" (Romans 5:8). "Christ may dwell in your
hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be
able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length,
and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which
passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of
God" (Ephesians 3:17-19). Love here means that emotion of tender
care that one being feels for another.

maddog11 posted in message #57 of this thread:

What does it mean to "know God in Spirit and in Truth"?

Christians receive the Holy Spirit (Acts 19:2,6). They know God the
Father through his Son Jesus, the truth (John 14:6), and through
the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of truth (John 14:17), by whom the Bible
was written (2 Peter 1:21, 2 Timothy 3:16) to bring Christians into
all truth (John 16:13, 2 Timothy 3:15-17).

 

[Bible2]

maddog11 posted in message #58 of this thread:

So what you have described is not God's end-game then, because
there is the yet another world?

The new earth (Revelation 21) will be the start of a new game, as it
were (although the word "game" cheapens it).

maddog11 posted in message #58 of this thread:

What happens ultimately to the new creation, the new human beings
who fall into sin and mortality like present humanity?

Some of the new mortal race of humans on the new earth (Isaiah
65:17,20) could be saved like some of the mortal race of humans on
this old earth are saved.

 

[Bible2]

maddog11 posted in message #59 of this thread:

So, anyone who calls him/herself a Christian and is a member of any
political party, or who participates in political discourse cannot be a
"True Christian"?

Any true Christians who are yoked together with non-Christians in a
political party should become unyoked (2 Corinthians 6:14-18). Any
true Christians caught up in political discourse should focus instead
on spiritual discourse (2 Corinthians 10:3-5).

maddog11 posted in message #59 of this thread:

Is it okay to belong to a "Christians-only" political party, as long as
that party does not participate in any "non-spiritual" debates or
issues?

Any political party that did not participate in any non-spiritual
debates or issues would not be a political party, for politics is about
non-spiritual issues.

maddog11 posted in message #59 of this thread:

What is a spiritual battle versus a non-spiritual battle? How does
one know?

A spiritual battle involves only theological doctrines (2 Corinthians
10:5), and a wrestling only against evil spiritual beings (Ephesians
6:12) who enslave humans without those humans realizing it
(2 Timothy 2:26).

 

[Bible2]

maddog11 posted in message #61 of this thread:

What will happen if they do sin?

If a saved person in the eternal state in New Jerusalem on the new
earth (Revelation 21:1-4) commits a sin, what will happen to him
will depend on what he does next. If he repents, he will be forgiven
(1 John 1:9). If he refuses to repent, he will be chastened
(Revelation 3:19). And if he still refuses to repent, he will end up in
the lake of fire (Hebrews 10:26-27).

maddog11 posted in message #61 of this thread:

you now seem to agree with me that "real human beings now" --
even "saved humans now" -- are NOT capable of never-sinning.

Saved humans now are capable of never sinning (1 John 3:6-10).
It's just that there is probably no saved human now on the earth
who never sins (Ecclesiastes 7:20). For we can be capable of not
doing something, and yet still wrongly choose to do it.

maddog11 posted in message #61 of this thread:

If that is the case, then what distinguishes a "saved" person from
an "unsaved" person? Both still sin, i.e. disobey.

What distinguishes a saved person from an unsaved person is that
the saved person is capable of never sinning (John 8:34-36), and if
he does sin and repents and confesses his sin to God, he is forgiven
for it (1 John 1:9). If he refuses to repent from his sins, then he will
end up like an unsaved person (Hebrews 10:26-27, Matthew 24:48-51).

maddog11 posted in message #61 of this thread:

ARE Christians actually able to avoid sinning?

Christians are actually able to avoid sinning (Galatians 5:16).

maddog11 posted in message #61 of this thread:

I have never met a human being, even Christians, who are
completely able to avoid sinning.

One may have never met a Christian who completely avoids sinning,
but Christians are still capable of doing that (Romans 8:13b).

maddog11 posted in message #61 of this thread:

Christians appear to continue to behave pretty much the same way
as all other human beings, with the same issues, faults and mistakes.
They do not behave noticeably differently from other human beings.

Because Christians are still humans like other humans, they will still
have the same issues, faults and mistakes as other humans. But
Christians have the capability to behave noticeably differently from
other humans (Philippians 2:15).

 

[Bible2]

maddog11 posted in message #62 of this thread:

Are you always sure of your knowledge of what to do in every
situation?

If a Christian knows every word of the Bible, then a Christian can
always be sure of his knowledge of what to do in every situation in
which he knows all of the facts of that situation (2 Timothy 3:16-17).
But in every situation where a Christian doesn't know all of the facts
of that situation, he will need to pray and ask for miraculous wisdom
from God regarding what to do in that situation (James 1:5).

 

[Bible2]

maddog11 posted in message #65 of this thread:

you say everyone will be judged, and "sentence pronounced."
Why is this important? What sentences will be pronounced? What
will happen after the sentences are pronounced?

God "will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who
by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and
immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do
not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath"
(Romans 2:6-8); "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire,
prepared for the devil and his angels ... And these shall go away into
everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal"
(Matthew 25:41,46).

 

[Bible2]

maddog11 posted in message #66 of this thread:

How are you "shown" what to do?

Christians are shown what to do in the Bible (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

maddog11 posted in message #66 of this thread:

I heard a man on the radio say "God spoke to me this morning." I
was pretty surprised at that.

Most Christians who say things like "God spoke to me this morning"
don't mean an audible voice, but ideas from God placed within their
minds. Although it is rare, it is possible for non-psychotic people to
hear an audible voice from God (1 Samuel 3:4-10).