What is so wrong with socialism?

[Loudmouth]

Ultimately, their own.

Do you think a CEO works 1,000 times harder than the janitor who cleans his office?

People tend to forget that prior to sitting in a cushy office, most successful business owners took a lot of risks and worked a lot of long hours, and spent a lot of time away from their families.

Poor people do that too. In fact, they are often much riskier choices because they don't have rich parents to fall back on.

(with the exception of the few who inherited their positions of power; however, 80% of millionaire business owners are first-generation wealthy).

20% of the population is not made up of millionaires. This means that you have a much better chance of becoming a millionaire if you come from a millionaire family, regardless of how hard you work.

When a business owner is starting off, they're 'scraping by', 'making ends meet', 'trying to keep up with the industry powerhouses'...and are revered by many who have a respect for small businesses and the people who run them...however, some phenomenon occurs when that person finally hits it big after all of their hard work, and public perception flips like a light switch, and they become 'privileged', 'lucky', and 'coasting off of the hard work of others'.

When you work just as hard but make more money, what should we call that?

 

[Jan Volkes]

It's neither.
It's the big government liberals pushing a nanny state who tell people they can never reach the top 10%.
When business owners get wealthy their employees have jobs. When they lose money, the plants close and their workers have no jobs. When the wealthy put their money in banks others have investment capital. When they buy planes, those workers have jobs. When they buy yachts, builders, dealerships and captains benefit. When they die and pass it on to the next generation, their children usually blow the fortune and the process starts over.
Nobody hordes wealth under their pillow.

Nobody truly owns anything. We have things which we control, including our wealth. We don't take it with us when we die. Someone else assumes control of it. We may think we own land, but the land was there before us and will remain when we're gone. The truly rich man lays up his treasure in Heaven, where it will benefit him for eternity. The only truly wealthy man is one whose Father is the Lord and whose Lord is Jesus Christ.

Those who hate others who have more or covet the wealth another has created are simply pathetic.

I have news for you, you will never even reach the top 75%, it's a lie told to Americans to keep them quiet.

You are obviously one of those people who think trickle down economics actually works, well it doesn't,
today the American millionaires and billionaires shop all over the world because they can either get it cheaper or made better
in countries other than the US, which means the money is spent elsewhere and other countries get the benefits.
Billionaires rarely put their money in banks they invest it all over the world, if they do put it into a bank I doubt it would be an American bank it would be in an offshore accounts like the Romney's use for tax reasons, they don't even pay tax in the US, they take the money out of America and spend it in other countries, if there is trickle down it happens in other countries.

Here's one case, an American cruise line company wanted a ship built and they wanted it to be the biggest liner in the world, where did they go to have it made? STX Europe Turku Shipyard in Finland, they have since built 2 more and 1 more is planned,
They cost 1.5 billion dollars each, that's an awful lot of money spent in Finnish businesses, BTW Finland is one of those nanny state countries you mentioned.

Most Americans believe they are millionaires waiting to happen, it's a cruel lie told to every American school child,
bright smart people do not need to live in America to become millionaires, admittedly there are more gullible people in the US from whom you can take money, but as far as business is concerned lots of people in every country become millionaires and billionaires.

 

[Mediaeval]

This "theft" of which you speak is like if you wanted to go to Disneyland. If you were able to get through the gate without paying and someone came up to you and said "Yeah, you have to pay your money to get in the park"...is that "theft" likewise? Because it's the EXACT SAME THING. If you get an advantage from living in the US (which you DO) then why wouldn't you pay for it? And why wouldn't you set up a system by which payment is made automatically?

How is taxation "theft" unless you believe the rules that make you pay for entry to Disneyland are also theft.

At which point your argument fails as absurd.

The difference is that you have a choice whether or not to go to Disneyland. The theme park does not threaten to confiscate your property or put you in jail if you do not wish to go through their gate.

 

[Loudmouth]

The difference is that you have a choice whether or not to go to Disneyland. The theme park does not threaten to confiscate your property or put you in jail if you do not wish to go through their gate.

That argument only works if you used private roads funded through toll fees in order to reach Disneyland.

 

[Mediaeval]

So, you want to hire a company to fix the holes in the street in front of your house?
You want to hire private security companies to secure your neighbourhood?
You want to hire private fireman companies to put out the fire when your house is burning?
You want to hire private companies to light up the streets after dark?
You want to hire private militias to protect your family during war times?

That is hilarious.

Services provided by private companies in a free market are cheaper and more efficient.
Taxpayer-funded military intervention gave us Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan.

 

[Jan Volkes]

Services provided by private companies in a free market are cheaper and more efficient.
Taxpayer-funded military intervention gave us Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan.

Al Capone would have loved to live in a world designed by you, you would not have lived long enough to enjoy it,
either that or you would have been working for him doing whatever he wanted.

 

[Loudmouth]

Services provided by private companies in a free market are cheaper and more efficient.

Then why do Americans pay twice as much for health care compared to government run, socialist systems?

 

[Mediaeval]

There's no such thing as an objective moral principle. Morals are agreed upon by society and they change with the times. That is the opposite of objectivity.

Definitions aside, it is immoral, IMO to reap the benefits of living comfortably in a country and not paying for your share of the costs.

I'd love to hear more about this magical country where taxes don't exist yet it still has a functioning government that can afford the quality of life standards we enjoy here in The US. What continent is this country on?

If morality is just a matter of opinion, then why bring it up at all? If morality is just a matter of opinion, then politicians can be of the opinion that they can do no wrong, that any end justifies the means. Pol Pot said his conscience was clear.

Governments do not provide high standards of living. That’s like crediting a tapeworm with the health of its host. Humanly speaking, only private wealth makes a high standard of living possible. Government spending is a drag on the economy and therefore a drag on the standard of living.

Perhaps the nearest approximation to the "magical country" nowadays is Liberland https://www.lewrockwell.com/2015/04/no_author/new-libertarian-country-in-europe/

 

[Mediaeval]

Then why do Americans pay twice as much for health care compared to government run, socialist systems?

For one thing, good quality health care is expensive. For another, the health care market in the U.S. is far from free. There is an ample amount of costly government interference.

 

[Jan Volkes]

If morality is just a matter of opinion, then why bring it up at all? If morality is just a matter of opinion, then politicians can be of the opinion that they can do no wrong, that any end justifies the means. Pol Pot said his conscience was clear.

Governments do not provide high standards of living. That’s like crediting a tapeworm with the health of its host. Humanly speaking, only private wealth makes a high standard of living possible. Government spending is a drag on the economy and therefore a drag on the standard of living.

Perhaps the nearest approximation to the "magical country" nowadays is Liberland https://www.lewrockwell.com/2015/04/no_author/new-libertarian-country-in-europe/

I think you must walk around with your eyes closed.
The government keeps millions of people alive with Medicaid and Medicare and a host of other government run programmes, would you have them drop all of those programmes?

 

[Loudmouth]

For one thing, good quality health care is expensive.

Why is good quality health care only expensive in America?

For another, the health care market in the U.S. is far from free. There is an ample amount of costly government interference.

In countries where the government runs the entire system, the citizens of those countries pay half of what we do, per capita, for health care. How do you explain that?

 

[Cearbhall]

If morality is just a matter of opinion, then why bring it up at all? If morality is just a matter of opinion, then politicians can be of the opinion that they can do no wrong, that any end justifies the means.

What of it? What is there to be done, since morality is subjective? I can't will it to change.

 

[amanuensis63]

The difference is that you have a choice whether or not to go to Disneyland.

And one likewise has a choice in whether they want to live in the US or not. People who don't want to pay their freight can go elsewhere.

The theme park does not threaten to confiscate your property or put you in jail if you do not wish to go through their gate.

But if you DO go through the gate and refuse to pay you will be arrested and carted off to jail. And then you'll be put on trial and you will lose and you will have the fees (and legal fees) forcibly confiscated from you.

 

[Cearbhall]

The difference is that you have a choice whether or not to go to Disneyland. The theme park does not threaten to confiscate your property or put you in jail if you do not wish to go through their gate.

Do you have a choice whether or not you fund public schools? Why aren't you fighting that?

 

[Avniel]

I like socialism

 

[Jan Volkes]

I like socialism

I suspect it's Democratic Socialism that you like.

 

[buzuxi02]

I have news for you, you will never even reach the top 75%, it's a lie told to Americans to keep them quiet.

You are obviously one of those people who think trickle down economics actually works, well it doesn't,
today the American millionaires and billionaires shop all over the world because they can either get it cheaper or made better
in countries other than the US, which means the money is spent elsewhere and other countries get the benefits.
Billionaires rarely put their money in banks they invest it all over the world, if they do put it into a bank I doubt it would be an American bank it would be in an offshore accounts like the Romney's use for tax reasons, they don't even pay tax in the US, they take the money out of America and spend it in other countries, if there is trickle down it happens in other countries.

Here's one case, an American cruise line company wanted a ship built and they wanted it to be the biggest liner in the world, where did they go to have it made? STX Europe Turku Shipyard in Finland, they have since built 2 more and 1 more is planned,
They cost 1.5 billion dollars each, that's an awful lot of money spent in Finnish businesses, BTW Finland is one of those nanny state countries you mentioned.

Most Americans believe they are millionaires waiting to happen, it's a cruel lie told to every American school child,
bright smart people do not need to live in America to become millionaires, admittedly there are more gullible people in the US from whom you can take money, but as far as business is concerned lots of people in every country become millionaires and billionaires.

This is silly. Although I do work with many hispanics who are tricked back in their native home to believe this. Ever been to 26 Federal Plaza in Manhattan? There is a seperate entrance for those seeking to meet with immigration officers and other other immigration services, the line wraps around the block, literally thousands mostly third world immigrants.
I guarantee you they are not seeking asylum, all are here to make money. And this is precisely the reason why socialism cant work here:

1. A large heterogeneous society where the majority have come here precisely because its anti-socialist, who are not looking to subsidise "sub groups".

2. Attempt to accumulate as much money to send back home. But hardly do americans atleast the ones Ive met think they are millionaires soon to be. Ironically I do have millionaire friends but they are all first generation greek-americans, atleast two of them made it from working in their blue collar careers never having attended college.

 

[Loudmouth]

Little did we know that Abraham Lincoln was a socialist.

"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration."--Abraham Lincoln

 

[Jan Volkes]

This is silly. Although I do work with many hispanics who are tricked back in their native home to believe this. Ever been to 26 Federal Plaza in Manhattan? There is a seperate entrance for those seeking to meet with immigration officers and other other immigration services, the line wraps around the block, literally thousands mostly third world immigrants.
I guarantee you they are not seeking asylum, all are here to make money. And this is precisely the reason why socialism cant work here:

1. A large heterogeneous society where the majority have come here precisely because its anti-socialist, who are not looking to subsidise "sub groups".

2. Attempt to accumulate as much money to send back home. But hardly do americans atleast the ones Ive met think they are millionaires soon to be. Ironically I do have millionaire friends but they are all first generation greek-americans, atleast two of them made it from working in their blue collar careers never having attended college.

In that case all that's left for you and yours to do is continue to suffer with your outmoded system, good luck.

 

[ebia]

This is silly. Although I do work with many hispanics who are tricked back in their native home to believe this. Ever been to 26 Federal Plaza in Manhattan? There is a seperate entrance for those seeking to meet with immigration officers and other other immigration services, the line wraps around the block, literally thousands mostly third world immigrants.
I guarantee you they are not seeking asylum, all are here to make money. And this is precisely the reason why socialism cant work here:

1. A large heterogeneous society where the majority have come here precisely because its anti-socialist, who are not looking to subsidise "sub groups".

2. Attempt to accumulate as much money to send back home. But hardly do americans atleast the ones Ive met think they are millionaires soon to be. Ironically I do have millionaire friends but they are all first generation greek-americans, atleast two of them made it from working in their blue collar careers never having attended college.

So a diverse, multicultural state of migrants with decent social welfare isn't possible?

I guess someone forgot to tell Australia.