What is so wrong with socialism?

KWCrazy

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And anyway, as we all know, it's not the top 10% that's the problem. It's the top 0.1%
It's neither.
It's the big government liberals pushing a nanny state who tell people they can never reach the top 10%.
When business owners get wealthy their employees have jobs. When they lose money, the plants close and their workers have no jobs. When the wealthy put their money in banks others have investment capital. When they buy planes, those workers have jobs. When they buy yachts, builders, dealerships and captains benefit. When they die and pass it on to the next generation, their children usually blow the fortune and the process starts over.
Nobody hordes wealth under their pillow.

Nobody truly owns anything. We have things which we control, including our wealth. We don't take it with us when we die. Someone else assumes control of it. We may think we own land, but the land was there before us and will remain when we're gone. The truly rich man lays up his treasure in Heaven, where it will benefit him for eternity. The only truly wealthy man is one whose Father is the Lord and whose Lord is Jesus Christ.

Those who hate others who have more or covet the wealth another has created are simply pathetic.
 
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KWCrazy

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The GOP has basically mapped a plan to cut social programs.

Your liberal sources have no credibility.
What you call a "cut" is actually a lesser increase than what the agencies wanted and is still greater than the rate of inflation. No social program is cut.
Spending money we don't have is irresponsible and unsustainable. This president has added more to the debt than every previous administration combined.

Because, I'll tell you straight up, I probably out-earn you (just speaking statistically)
and I know I didn't get here solely because of my personal awesomeness. I got a lot of help and a lot of people overlooked my youthful stupidity.

I hope you do, because that would mean you should be very well set to help others with the wealth you admit you didn't earn.
I'm curious how two people could come to such a different view of the poor. I, like you, took full advantage of education opportunities available to me and I worked my way up to a 6 figure job. I did my time in the trenches and I live quite comfortably.
Good for you.
I see the other side because I work with business who are starving for good workers and can't find any.
I have seen customers close their doors because they couldn't find qualified help who could pass a drug test.
There are probably very few businesses in America right now that wouldn't hire someone who could promise to:
1 Show up on time
2 Not steal from the company
3 Not use drugs that would interfere with the job required and
4 Be willing to learn how to be a more valuable employee.

Do these four things and any company in America would hire you. Sadly, companies can't find people who can make even that minimum requirement.
 
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Jonathan Jarvis

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Those who hate others who have more or covet the wealth another has created are simply pathetic.

When a man says he has got rich from hard work. Ask yourself whose hard work.

We the poor do not covert that which another has earned but simply require being paid that what we have earned.
 
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interpreter

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“Jesus answered, 'If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.'” – NIV Matthew 19:21

"When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." – NIV Luke 18:22

“Jesus looked at him and loved him. 'One thing you lack," he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.'” – NIV Mark 10:21

“But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.” – NIV Timothy 6:9-10

Just a reminder to all you pious Christian capitalists.

:wave:
Good post. Jesus also said it is impossible for a rich man to enter heaven. Jesus was definitely a socialist.

And the early Church, following the teachings of Jesus, sold all their possessions and gave the proceeds to St. Peter to redistribute. The death penalty was imposed on those who failed to comply. And everyone lived together in a commune. That is socialism to the max.

Most would agree that the early Church was way too extreme in trying to follow the teachings of Jesus. But I see nothing wrong with the much milder form of socialism that is practiced in Great Britain and the US, and I'm pretty sure that God approves.
 
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Loudmouth

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It's neither.
It's the big government liberals pushing a nanny state who tell people they can never reach the top 10%.
When business owners get wealthy their employees have jobs. When they lose money, the plants close and their workers have no jobs. When the wealthy put their money in banks others have investment capital. When they buy planes, those workers have jobs. When they buy yachts, builders, dealerships and captains benefit. When they die and pass it on to the next generation, their children usually blow the fortune and the process starts over.
Nobody hordes wealth under their pillow.


When your argument is that the poor get crumbs that fall off the table, it really isn't that good of an argument.
 
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HannahT

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I have worked with a number of organizations, and dealt with the poor and down trodden for years. Problem is many government systems don't do customized work for each circumstance, and that is what is needed at times.

Some people need more help than others. Others - sadly - if you give them to much? It hinders their growth within society. For some reason people take that reality as 'hating' them or some other term. Humans are custom, and like it or not - it happens!

They need a good push to help themselves, and not overly rely on others to do things for them...because they don't want to, don't feel they should have to, or outright don't care just give it to me! Heck, one size doesn't even fit all with those types either. You have to go at it in different ways to motive them, and some sadly will never be motivated at all.

Majority of the people are decent people. Its that minority that refuse to do anything, and can be outright passive aggressive with any approach? You struggle to balance what help they really need, and what help will enable their bad habits. It rots! When there is children involved? Its even harder. Sadly, they are the ones that get left with the crumbs because they always get the short end of the stick at home.

I have no idea what 'system' would fix that, but most of the time custom plans for custom families just don't seem to fit into any LARGE system that I have learned about. Sigh.
 
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KWCrazy

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When a man says he has got rich from hard work. Ask yourself whose hard work.
We the poor do not covert that which another has earned but simply require being paid that what we have earned.
Are you not paid for your wages?
Did you not agree to work for the wages paid?
If you want to become wealthy, know that nearly every successful person failed many times before they succeeded.
Where you are today is a result, to a large extent, of the choices you made yesterday. Where you are tomorrow is the result of the choices you make today.
 
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Loudmouth

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If you want to become wealthy, know that nearly every successful person failed many times before they succeeded.


The strongest predictor of becoming wealthy is having wealthy parents. Do you really think that Paris Hilton is a multi-millionaire because of hard work?
 
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ThatRobGuy

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I find it hard to believe that America can't do what nearly every other 1st World nation can do. France can have affordable and accessible healthcare, but the US can't? Really?

There are other logistics at play.
According to the W.H.O in a study they did that evaluated; Health, Responsiveness, and Fair Financial contribution...
France is #1 in the world in terms of healthcare
The US is #37

Here's some key pieces of info to keep in mind when considering this.

The more concentrated a population is, the easier and more efficiently you can provide centralized services (and easy access to them).

France has population of 66 million, in a area of 247,368 mi²
The US has 318 million, spread out over an area of 3.806 million mi²

Or, in other words, we have 5 times the people, spread out over 15 times the area...the fact that they're 3x as concentrated definitely gives them an advantage. They have a very manageable population size, concentrated into a reasonable sized land mass. UK, which also has a similar population/landmass makeup is also highly ranked.

Proof of that is Canada...while they have a healthcare model that very closely resembles France's...in terms of their ranking, they're #30...not that far ahead of us.

The top 20 ranked countries do all share a common attribute, universal healthcare...so obviously a person would be foolish to attempt to deny that having such a program is a factor. However, given the large number countries that do have the programs who are close to us on the ranking scale, it's also very apparent that universal healthcare isn't the only factor in deciding whether or not a country will have a successful system of healthcare. (For example, Finland, Denmark, and Australia are all ranked in the 30's like us)
 
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Loudmouth

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The more concentrated a population is, the easier and more efficiently you can provide centralized services (and easy access to them).

Canadians are even more spread out than Americans, yet they pay half of what we do for healthcare.

Proof of that is Canada...while they have a healthcare model that very closely resembles France's...in terms of their ranking, they're #30...not that far ahead of us.

So they have better health care at half the cost. If Canada can do it, why can't the US?

The top 20 ranked countries do all share a common attribute, universal healthcare...so obviously a person would be foolish to attempt to deny that having such a program is a factor. However, given the large number countries that do have the programs who are close to us on the ranking scale, it's also very apparent that universal healthcare isn't the only factor in deciding whether or not a country will have a successful system of healthcare. (For example, Finland, Denmark, and Australia are all ranked in the 30's like us)

No one is close to us on this ranking scale.

US_spends_much_more_on_health_than_what_might_be_expected_1_slideshow.jpg
 
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buzuxi02

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Spending tax dollars to supply healthcare to US citizens is "squandering"?

Sorry this is a fast moving thread, Was commenting on those who inherit wealth.
I would prefer reforms to bring down the cost of healthcare considerably. Let me give you an example why I see abuses in such a system. I work with a green card holder who even though is 29 years old, perfect weight and generally in good health regularly has been going to the emergency room. He is a hypochondriac who has slightly high blood pressure. He must have gone to the emergecy room once a week for the past 4 months for really no reason. He does not have a primary care physician, has gotten medicaid so thats how he pays for these visits, and after many tests it comes down to taking the same prescription meds he was prescribed originally. Why should the taxpayer pick his tab up ? It also puts a stress on available doctors, increases the costs for all further.

Universal healthcare should only be for catastrophic circumstances. Serious injury, cancer. It should not be for getting your tubes tied, or for free government viagra, or abortions, or birth control, or weight loss treatments etc
 
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Loudmouth

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Sorry this is a fast moving thread, Was commenting on those who inherit wealth.
I would prefer reforms to bring down the cost of healthcare considerably. Let me give you an example, I work with a green card holder. He is a hypochondriac who has slightly high blood pressure. He must have gone to the emergecy room once a week for the past 4 months for really no reason. He does not have a primary care physician, has gotten medicaid so thats how he pays for these visits and after many tests it comes down to taking the same prescription meds he was prescribed originally. Why should the taxpayer pick his tab up?

Using the rare, 0.0001% of patients is not a valid way of determining if a healthcare system will work.

Universal healthcare should only be for catastrophic circumstances. Serious injury, cancer, etc. It should not be for getting your tubes tied, free government viagra, abortions, birth control, weight loss treatments etc

First, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Preventative medicine is cheaper and can save us money that is spent on curing preventable outcomes.

Second, how is this solved by the current system? We pay insurance premiums, and those are exactly the things that insurance covers. Why does it matter if we are paying a government agency vs. a for profit corporation?
 
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ThatRobGuy

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When a man says he has got rich from hard work. Ask yourself whose hard work.

Ultimately, their own.

People tend to forget that prior to sitting in a cushy office, most successful business owners took a lot of risks and worked a lot of long hours, and spent a lot of time away from their families. (with the exception of the few who inherited their positions of power; however, 80% of millionaire business owners are first-generation wealthy).

When a business owner is starting off, they're 'scraping by', 'making ends meet', 'trying to keep up with the industry powerhouses'...and are revered by many who have a respect for small businesses and the people who run them...however, some phenomenon occurs when that person finally hits it big after all of their hard work, and public perception flips like a light switch, and they become 'privileged', 'lucky', and 'coasting off of the hard work of others'.

I've often asked where this intangible line is where a person goes from being a respectable business owner to "the face of corporate evil"...nobody can seem to provide any specifics.

Obviously, it's somewhere between:
Here
upload_2015-8-4_15-45-44.jpeg


and here
upload_2015-8-4_15-46-4.jpeg


...but nobody can seem to pinpoint it.

Obviously old man Walton was 'coasting off the work of others' when he was at one location in the middle of mainstreet...he sat in the back office while clerks and stock boys did the physical work (which apparently is the only kind of work that counts)

Is it at the point where the business owner gets a high enough level of income that starts to make other people jealous?

Is it at the point where the owner starts making x-times the number of what his employees make? I know that gets a lot of economic-progressives fired up...with the exception of Apple of course...who seems to get a pass on that one even though Tim Cook is by far the biggest offender in that regard (without a close 2nd)
(although, I suspect it's because Tim Cook supports other initiatives that are appealing to progressives so they look the other way on that one)
 
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amanuensis63

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Spending money we don't have is irresponsible and unsustainable.


OK, then why did W. get us involved in a war in Iraq that we couldn't afford and then play games with the bookkeeping? Why do we give any subsidies to oil companies? Why does our tax system allow corporations like GE to pay no taxes whatsoever?


I hope you do, because that would mean you should be very well set to help others with the wealth you admit you didn't earn.


You should really pay closer attention. I never said I don't earn my income...I said that I realize I get a lot of advantages from other people. You do too.

There are probably very few businesses in America right now that wouldn't hire someone who could promise to:
1 Show up on time
2 Not steal from the company
3 Not use drugs that would interfere with the job required and
4 Be willing to learn how to be a more valuable employee.


I don't know what kind of rotting post-apocalyptic hellscape you live and work in, but it doesn't really reflect most of the US that I've experienced. And I've lived and worked in 8 states. I've never met that many slackers...but it seems you have found the place that is nothing but slackers. How statistically unlikely is that?

Do these four things and any company in America would hire you. Sadly, companies can't find people who can make even that minimum requirement.

Again, not my experience. And I've been on the hiring committees a few times.

It seems to me perhaps you have extrapolated from some small highly disfunctional pool to assume that more Americans are like that. They aren't. Hope that gives you hope that in states all across the US people actually can and do do those things all the time!
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Canadians are even more spread out than Americans, yet they pay half of what we do for healthcare.

I know...that's why said in my previous post, universal healthcare is a factor...but that it's not the only factor. Otherwise Canada would be up there in the rankings next to france.

they have better health care at half the cost. If Canada can do it, why can't the US?

No one is close to us on this ranking scale.

You're only looking at one metric on that one...there are other factors besides costs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization_ranking_of_health_systems_in_2000

Cheap+Easily Available doesn't equal 'Good' in every case...you planning on going to a Turkish Hospital to have any surgeries performed?
 
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RC1970

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You obviously know a great deal more about economics than I do.

Is it not the case that Western Governments created billions to bail out bankrupt bank and this money is supposedly to buy the banks bad debts, also stimulate the economy. Except the bank hang onto the money instead of lending it to firms as they are supposed to. Then later the Government sell their interests in the bank for a lot less than they ( the tax payer ) paid for it. E.g The UK and RBS.

Similarly with Greece. The European banks have a lot of bad debt on their books. 86 Billion Euros is going through ( not to) Greece to end up in the same bank to cover their balance sheet problem. Or am I too cynical ?

I am surprised you said 'Aggressive taxation is a socialist concept.' I thought the opposite was the case.

These topics are far too complicated to address on a forum such as this, but just keep in mind that our economic problems (and we have not seen the worst of it yet by a long shot) are caused by evil people in high places. And, they don't care about the system (capitalism or socialism) they work under, as their aim is to control everything and everyone.

Read Psalm 2
 
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amanuensis63

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Are you not paid for your wages?


Over the past 30 years CEO pay has gone up by a few hundred percent on average. Middle class incomes have effectively stagnated. Who is taking and who is earning? Does the CEO of the company do 100 human lifetimes of work in a single year?

Did you not agree to work for the wages paid?


Let me tell you what I signed up for: I signed up for a country in which when I went to school and got my degrees and took my job and did my job every day and worked really hard I'd see wage increases.

Here's what I got: a year or so after joining a Fortune 50 company I was told that the company was taking the lead from other companies in the field and moving away from RAISES (which were "permanent") and moving more toward "BONUSES" (which are not permanent.

Meanwhile the CEO of the company a few years later was forced out because he was having some difficulties with ethics we all had to abide by. He got many millions of dollars to simply walk away.

I was sold a bill of goods.

Where you are tomorrow is the result of the choices you make today.

That sounds important. What choice was made 30 years ago such that middle class wages would stagnate while those at the top kept advancing and becoming greater and greater? Was it some evolutionary step in which a race of SUPER BEINGS suddenly took control of the C-Suite?

Can you tell me why the majority of Middle Class workers would make such a choice that would stagnate them for a lifetime?
 
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buzuxi02

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I prefer that the cost goes down where we can pay out of pocket on many things. I spend more on one night out than a doctor's visit i make once in a blue moon.

How is it that my immigrant blue collar father of 4 children all paid the four baby deliveries out of pocket in the 1970's? Obviously delivering a baby today costs thousands. So there is a scam going on in the medical field, they are rip offs. We all know a cancer patient even if he is a millionaire will go broke in 6 months if its out of pocket. In other words serious medical services are services which humans can never ever afford yet somehow the tab is picked up and someone is making a killing on it. I dont care if its public as long as its cheap and is for needed medical services over a certain threshhold, the same way you have a deductible in auto insurance. Taxpayers should not be paying for a $60 visit so grandpa can get his viagra prescription filled.
 
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