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What is Sin

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holo

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How can someone be a sinner before he has ever sinned? Or do you think that somehow we sin even before we are born?

Is this sin built into us while God is forming us in our mothers' wombs?

Where does this sin come from?

Sorry, I can't see a justification in Scripture for the doctrine that we are born sinners. It just doesn't match up.
We were sinners "in Adam" - he started a curse that we all suffered from. We were born with his nature. We didn't become sinners when we first sinned - we first sinned because we were sinners.

Just like a righteous deed doesn't turn a sinner into a saint, a sin won't turn a saint into a sinner. It has to do with identity, not behaviour - though your behaviour reflects who you think you are.

Romans 5:19
For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.


None of us are counted as righteous because of our behaviour, but because we are born of God.
 
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holo

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If we are born simnners then all babies that die or are aborted go to Hell. This smudges the character of God and no matter how many scriptures a person uses to prove it, it cannot be true.
The fact that you're born a sinner doesn't mean you're born guilty.

As you grow up you must make a choice, between justice and grace, between God and the devil (ultimately).

If you weren't a sinner by nature there wouldn't be any need for God to have you born again, with a NEW nature.
 
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ticker

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Just like a righteous deed doesn't turn a sinner into a saint, a sin won't turn a saint into a sinner.
Absolutely right.

And it's unfortunate how some Christians keep thinking they're still sinners, just because they might partake in sinful "actions".

If you're a Christian, you now live in Christ...and there's no sin in Him, is there?


Sorry, I can't see a justification in Scripture for the doctrine that we are born sinners. It just doesn't match up.
?

Hi there holyrokker.

I'm wondering what you think being "born again" means. Here's some scripture to consider about being born in Christ and dying to Adam (...and this is basically the "story" of the bible in a nutshell).


John 3:3 - In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

1 Corinthians 15:22 - For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

I Peter 1:23 - For you have been born again. Your new life did not come from your earthly parents because the life they gave you will end in death. But this new life will last forever because it comes from the eternal, living word of God.

2 Corinthians 5:17 - Wherefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature: the old things are passed away; behold, they are become new.


Basically, if what we truly are without Jesus is already righteous (meaning, not in fact sinners), then why the work on the cross, and Jesus' whole ministry? ;)
 
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holyrokker

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Hi there holyrokker.

I'm wondering what you think being "born again" means. Here's some scripture to consider about being born in Christ and dying to Adam (...and this is basically the "story" of the bible in a nutshell).


John 3:3 - In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

1 Corinthians 15:22 - For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

I Peter 1:23 - For you have been born again. Your new life did not come from your earthly parents because the life they gave you will end in death. But this new life will last forever because it comes from the eternal, living word of God.

2 Corinthians 5:17 - Wherefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature: the old things are passed away; behold, they are become new.


Basically, if what we truly are without Jesus is already righteous (meaning, not in fact sinners), then why the work on the cross, and Jesus' whole ministry? ;)
Hi ticker!

Born again means a spiritual birth. Look at the entire context of John 3. Jesus tells us that "flesh gives birth to flesh, but spirit gives birth to spirit."

That spiritual birth is what Jesus was refering to when He said "you must be born again".

Why do we need to be born again? Because physical birth and spiritual birth are two different things.

You quoted 1Corinthians 15:22. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Do you hold to universal salvation? The second clause of that sentence says that all will be made alive in Christ.

You can't interpret the first clause as saying everyone is automatically dead in sin because of Adam unless you interpret the second clause as meaning everyone is automatically made alive in Christ.

But that isn't what the verse is saying.

Sin entered the world through Adam; life through Christ.

Just as everyone who sins dies, everyone who believes lives.

As for your last statement: How can we be righteous apart from Christ? It is faith in Him that makes us righteous.

I'm not saying that someone is "born righteous" We are neither "righteous" nor "sinful" at birth. These are moral attributes, not physical attributes.

Again, "flesh gives birth to flesh" A physical body gives birth to a physical body. Sin and righteousness are not inherent features of a physical body.
 
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ticker

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Hey HR (...if I can call you that :) )

Sorry to take so long to get back...busy.

So, I can't really follow what exactly you're saying...Do you mean that we don't have a spirit before Christ?

Born again means a spiritual birth. Look at the entire context of John 3. Jesus tells us that "flesh gives birth to flesh, but spirit gives birth to spirit."

That spiritual birth is what Jesus was refering to when He said "you must be born again".

Why do we need to be born again? Because physical birth and spiritual birth are two different things.

But God created us all with spirits. That's how He communicates with us.

How do you think we get saved?

What's the "door" that you think Jesus is knocking on?

Before we are in Christ, our spirit isn't necessarily alive...but it's not non-existent. We have a spirit...that of Adam...and the nature of that spirit is sinful.

You quoted 1Corinthians 15:22. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Do you hold to universal salvation? The second clause of that sentence says that all will be made alive in Christ.

Nope. It's actually saying..."all (those) who are in Christ will be made alive".

What it isn't saying is..."(all) we be made alive "by" Christ."

(And I'm not sure what stance you're taking here...because I trust you don't believe in universal salvation either, right? So, I take it you agree with my last statment?) :thumbsup:

You can't interpret the first clause as saying everyone is automatically dead in sin because of Adam unless you interpret the second clause as meaning everyone is automatically made alive in Christ.

Right......but I'm not interpreting the first clause of this verse as "everyone in Adam". Just because you think that I believe everyone is in Adam before they are in Christ (which I do), doesn't mean that this is what I'm saying this verse implies.

This verse is simply talking about "those in Adam" and "those in Christ". It's obviously not talking about everyone in the first clause.....because that would mean it's also talking about everyone in the second clause (which implies unversal salvation...which doesn't exist, right?)

So I put it to you......if you agree it's talking about "those in Christ" (and not everyone) in the second verse...then you must also agree it's talking about "those in Adam" (and not everyone) in the first verse for the sentence to evenly make sense.

I don't get your point here, exactly.

But that isn't what the verse is saying.

Sin entered the world through Adam; life through Christ.

Just as everyone who sins dies, everyone who believes lives.

Nope...you don't have to sin...you just have to be in Adam.

This verse isn't talking about sin anywhere...it's talking about being in Adam. I'm not sure why you think it's the "sin" that makes you sinful.

You sin beacuse you are sinful...because it's your nature. And vice-versa...you act righteous because you are righteous....because it's your nature.

You can't have 2 natures...it's either one or the other. You're either in Christ or not in Christ. And if you're not in Christ, then you're in Adam.

As for your last statement: How can we be righteous apart from Christ? It is faith in Him that makes us righteous.

I'm not saying that someone is "born righteous" We are neither "righteous" nor "sinful" at birth. These are moral attributes, not physical attributes.

Nope...they're spiritual attributes. And if we're not "righteous" or "sinful" then what is our nature? We don't have a nature or spirit?

Again, "flesh gives birth to flesh" A physical body gives birth to a physical body. Sin and righteousness are not inherent features of a physical body.

So you're saying we don't have a spirit when we're born...we're just flesh?


I guess we'll just have to disagree on this one. :) And thanks for your response.
 
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holyrokker

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I don't know why you'd think I'm promoting that we are without a spirit. But we ARE born without the Holy Spirit. It's the Holy Spirit who makes us alive spiritually.

ticker said:
Right......but I'm not interpreting the first clause of this verse as "everyone in Adam". Just because you think that I believe everyone is in Adam before they are in Christ (which I do), doesn't mean that this is what I'm saying this verse implies.

This verse is simply talking about "those in Adam" and "those in Christ". It's obviously not talking about everyone in the first clause.....because that would mean it's also talking about everyone in the second clause (which implies unversal salvation...which doesn't exist, right?)

So I put it to you......if you agree it's talking about "those in Christ" (and not everyone) in the second verse...then you must also agree it's talking about "those in Adam" (and not everyone) in the first verse for the sentence to evenly make sense.
Yes. I think this is the right understanding of the verse.
I do disagree with the "we sin because we are sinful" statement.

Somone can't be a sinner before they have ever committed an offense.

Please bear with an analogy - A man who steals things has a reputation in his community of being a thief. We would be right in calling him a thief. But why is he a thief? Is he considered a thief before he has ever committed a crime? Or is it the take of thievery that leads us to call him a thief.
Now obviously, he has committed himself, in his heart, to thievery before he actually has committed the act. So he actually becomes a thief when he commits his heart to the action.

I think it's the same way with sin. We cannot call a man a sinner prior to his having committed himself, in his heart, to sin.

Once committed in heart to sin, he is a sinner. Every action from that point on is sin, and je now sins because he is a sinner and we expect the action.

Just as we expect a thief to steal.

It is in the heart that we commit ourselves to sin. It is this that makes us sinners. It isn't Adam's action, it isn't our birth. We are not born with a heart committed to sin.

I don't know how much we disagree, and I hope we don't remain in disagreement over it. I truly do hope that we can come to a mutual understanding.

This doctrine has divided the Church for 1600 years. I hope it can be resolved.
 
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ticker

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Hi HR

I don't know why you'd think I'm promoting that we are without a spirit.

Oh. I thought that's what you were getting at by talking about physical birth vs. spiritual birth...and flesh giving birth to flesh vs. spirit giving birth to spirit.

I thought you meant we're just flesh before Jesus.

Yes. I think this is the right understanding of the verse.
I do disagree with the "we sin because we are sinful" statement.

Somone can't be a sinner before they have ever committed an offense.

I'm saying they're a "sinner" and using it as a proper noun...not as a subject doing an action. I'm using it as the opposite of a "saint"....(someone who is righteous, even though they might give in to indwelling sin and commit a sinful action).

Please bear with an analogy - A man who steals things has a reputation in his community of being a thief. We would be right in calling him a thief. But why is he a thief? Is he considered a thief before he has ever committed a crime? Or is it the take of thievery that leads us to call him a thief.
Now obviously, he has committed himself, in his heart, to thievery before he actually has committed the act. So he actually becomes a thief when he commits his heart to the action.

Ok...but you gotta wonder why he commited himself in his heart to do that. What's the root of it?

'Cause that's the thing. He's prone to act in sin because that's his nature. People act according to their nature.

But when you're born in Christ, you are prone to act righteous, because that's your new nature. And as I said above, you might still might give in to the indwelling sin that's already there, but...for the first time in your life, you are now prone to actually act righteous...(do actions that bare eternal consequences of love)...something you were never prone to do before, because that wasn't your nature before.

I think it's the same way with sin. We cannot call a man a sinner prior to his having committed himself, in his heart, to sin.

Once committed in heart to sin, he is a sinner. Every action from that point on is sin, and je now sins because he is a sinner and we expect the action.

Just as we expect a thief to steal.

It is in the heart that we commit ourselves to sin. It is this that makes us sinners. It isn't Adam's action, it isn't our birth. We are not born with a heart committed to sin.

But you're saying here that someone could concievably, under the optimum conditions, not commit a sin (in mind or action). So where would that leave the pesron?

You're saying that he's not righteous...you're saying that he's not sinful. What is he?

So again I ask you...what do think the point of Jesus' work on the cross was...and what his whole ministry was about if it wasn't to save a generation of sinners?

THAT'S WHY He died on the cross for us....because of the CERTAINTY of our sin....because we were damned.

God didn't give us His son so He could exchanged His life for ours in case we just might happen to sin in our lives (and become sinners as such).

Jesus is the only way to salvation...but what you're promoting can almost be likened to a works-based approach to being found blameless before God.

ie...If you keep yourself from sinning, you are blameless.

But that's not how it works. You are only found blameless through Christ.

I don't know how much we disagree, and I hope we don't remain in disagreement over it. I truly do hope that we can come to a mutual understanding.

This doctrine has divided the Church for 1600 years. I hope it can be resolved.

I disgree with lots of people. It aint no big thing. :) We're just seeing things differently I guess.


Cheers
 
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holyrokker

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ticker said:
But you're saying here that someone could concievably, under the optimum conditions, not commit a sin (in mind or action). So where would that leave the pesron?
The key word is "optimum".

Adam had that situation. Why did he sin?

We don't have a perfect world.
There is no need for a "sin nature" to explain the fact that we all sin. Apart from the Holy Spirit, we won't life a righteous life.
 
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ticker

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The key word is "optimum".

Adam had that situation. Why did he sin?

How was Adam's situation optimum? He was tempted by Satan.

That's what I'm getting at by referring to a conceivably "optimum" situation...one without temptation. So, in that situation, you're implying that somebody could conceivably be found blameless before God.

But no...you just can't be blameless before God apart from Christ. Without Christ you can never become a saint (righteous before God). So that then leaves you with being a sinner (sinful before God).

The only "good" that exists in God's creation is that which is of Christ. There's no in between here or IFs, ANDs, or BUTs. No one is "good" (or can do anything "good") apart from Christ.

You could be a sinless, universally loved, philanthropist, environmentalist...whatever, but if you don't have Jesus in your life, nothing you do would in any way be "good". Because only through Christ can we accomplish feats that have any actual "good" worth...works that have eternal, kingdom-building consequences stemming out of the motivation of love through Christ.

Everything else is looked at as unrighteous before God.

Only by Christ are we blameless...and not by "not sinning". 'Cause that is the work on the cross...that God doesn't see us as Adam, but sees us as Christ.
 
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ticker

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So what you're doing here is basically discounting the consequences of Adam's actions it seems.

You believe that Adam sinned...but then you're making no connection with his actions and us, because you keep maintaining that we come into the world without having a sinful nature, and that we're pure when we're born.

So what do you think are the consequences of Adam's act of sin then? Nothing?

And once more...what was Jesus' work on the cross for then? Just in case we might sin?

The good news is that Christ came to save us from the very thing we are when we're born into this world (and to make us righteous), not from who we might become if we sin.


And to answer your last questions:

No, Adam was not created a sinner. Of course not. He was tricked by Satan though in the "garden".

And no, He was not a sinner before he sinned. But we're talking about him now...a whole different scenario...and a whole different entrance into the world.

Are you saying you think we enter the world like Adam did? You don't think there's a difference?

And I'm not saying we're created "sinners"...but we're "sinners" when we're born, because of Adam.


I'm not sure how/if you're seeing things in an eternal sense or what. And I'm also not sure of how exactly you look at Genesis, and what it means to you. But to come full circle to what holo said a few days ago.....


Romans 5:19 - For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.


It is really that simple. I mean, that's the way the whole Bible makes sense.

I'm just kinda worried you might be minimizing Jesus' work on the cross.


Cheers
 
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holyrokker

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ticker said:
So what you're doing here is basically discounting the consequences of Adam's actions it seems.
No, I'm not discounting the consequences of Adam's actions. I believe, however, that morality cannot be inherited. We inherit a fallen body. We do not inherit sin, nor guilt. Sin is a matter of morality, not a physical problem.
ticker said:
And once more...what was Jesus' work on the cross for then? Just in case we might sin?
Jesus went to the cross because we do sin. He didn't go to the cross because we are victims of the consequences of Adam's sin.
ticker said:
You believe that Adam sinned...but then you're making no connection with his actions and us,
That isn't what I believe. We share a physical connection with Adam. We don't share in his sin or guilt.
ticker said:
because you keep maintaining that we come into the world without having a sinful nature, and that we're pure when we're born.
The first part of that statement is true. I don't think I'd say we are "pure" when we are born. But I do think we are innocent at birth.
Romans 5:19 - For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
This is similar to 1 Corinthians 15:22. I think we've been down this road before. If the first clause means Adam's sin automatically makes everyone a sinner, then the second clause would have to mean that Christ's obedience automatically makes everone righteous. I know you don't believe that.
 
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ticker

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This is similar to 1 Corinthians 15:22. I think we've been down this road before. If the first clause means Adam's sin automatically makes everyone a sinner, then the second clause would have to mean that Christ's obedience automatically makes everone righteous.

Yeah...everyone who believes!!!!!

Dude...Romans 5 is all about the gift of God's grace through faith.

This verse is saying "everyone is made righteous by the gift of God's grace (Jesus)". But I think you're missing the implied connection of God's grace and faith......and how God's grace (the gift of Jesus' work on the cross) only means anything if you believe.

Yes...it is talking about everyone...everyone who believes.


Dude......Everyone, me AND YOU, are born with a dead, sinful, unrighteous spirit...

5:14 - "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression"

It DOES NOT matter if you sin or not. I don't know how many stories and how many verses in the bible jive with this...yet it seems you're picking apart clauses and (intentionally or not) implying your paradigm to them.


Oh well...you believe what you believe I guess.

Can't really share more on this.

Take care
 
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holyrokker

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ticker said:
Dude...Romans 5 is all about the gift of God's grace through faith.
You are absolutely right! it is all about the Grace of God and the superiority of Christ over sin.

That's one of the reasons I cannot accept the idea that this text is teaching that all of mankind is born sinful because of Adam.

There is no denying that only those who believe in Christ are made righteous by Him.

That would mean that His obedience is less effective than Adam's sin, if indeed everyone is born sinful, but only some are made righteous. (Only those who believe)

The idea that everyone is gulity because of Adam is actually contrary to Scripture.

Ezekiel 18:20 "The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him."

Isaiah 53:6 "We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all."

Psalm 22:9-10 "Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you
even at my mother's breast.
From birth I was cast upon you;
from my mother's womb you have been my God."

Matthew 18:3 And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
(How could this be if we are born sinful?)
 
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ticker

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Matthew 18:3 And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
(How could this be if we are born sinful?)

Through Jesus!


Not gonna get into it all again...we just see things differently.
 
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Charis kai Dunamis

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That's one of the reasons I cannot accept the idea that this text is teaching that all of mankind is born sinful because of Adam.

There is no denying that only those who believe in Christ are made righteous by Him.

That would mean that His obedience is less effective than Adam's sin, if indeed everyone is born sinful, but only some are made righteous. (Only those who believe)

You are actually arguing with the doctrine of imputation, and seem to be misunderstanding of it as well.

When Adam sinned, that sin was imputed to his offspring, and thus corrupted all of mankind through sonship. Man became in a state of depravity and his nature was deemed sinful by God.

What I am getting from your posts is that you believe each man willfully chooses to sin, and thus becomes a sinner. The problem with such a doctrine is that you are completely looking over the internal and judging everything by externals. The internal state of a man always precedes the external, and is what produces fruit in a man's life. Because Adam sinned, we see in everyday life that the fruit produced by man is sin, it is not of innocence, which is what Adam's nature consisted of before the fall. Romans 3:9-18 tells us that all men, Jew or Greek, are under sin. The word "under" infers that we, by nature, conform to the law of sin, which would point towards a nature of sin. Because we inherited the nature from Adam, we all conform to that nature, and produce sin. We cannot choose to sin before we incline ourselves towards that sin, and the reason we are able to do so now is because that inclination was given to us by birth through Adam, and we are all sons of Adam, as stated in Romans 5:19.

The idea that everyone is gulity because of Adam is actually contrary to Scripture.

Ezekiel 18:20 "The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him."

Your hermaneutic here is quite poor. This has nothing to do with inherent sin, but of personal sin. It is correct to say that I will not be sent to hell because Adam ate of the fruit. For his sin is his alone when it comes to the judgement of God. But in no way does this nullify the fact that his sin was the cause of the sin of the entire world. I would be sent to hell for my own personal sin, if it was not for the imputation of Christ's righteousness to my account. But Adam was the root in causing my sin and the sin of the whole world.

Isaiah 53:6 "We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all."

Once again, you are taking personal responsibility out of the text. We are all held individually responsible, no one is denying this. This text has nothing to do with the imputation of Adam's sin to the rest of the world. For we are not judged by his sin, but by our sin which comes from the nature in which we inherited from him.

Psalm 22:9-10 "Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you
even at my mother's breast.
From birth I was cast upon you;
from my mother's womb you have been my God."

I would like to know the purpose in this quote...If you are trying to say that David was not born with a sin nature then this text really does nothing for you. David had the Spirit of God in him, and was chosen by God. In no way does this nullify that he was corrupt and in need of God and atonement for his sins?

Matthew 18:3 And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
(How could this be if we are born sinful?)

Here you are giving all responsiblity to man and leaving no room for the Spirit. Is it not possible, that through this passage, the Spirit could work in a life and regenerate them, that they may become children of God?

Ephesians 2:1-3
1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,

2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.

3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

We are, by nature, sinful.

One thing I think you are missing is the idea of being a son. We are sons of Adam. We were born of Adam, and thus inherited his sin. You can draw a parallel here to prove this. By the washing of regeneration, we were "born again". This is why we may call ourselves "sons of God", because we were born unto Him. Thus, we now have to wills, two natures warring at eachother inside of ourselves.

If you deny the doctrine of imputation, in that we are sons of Adam and inherited his sin nature, then indirectly, you are denying the parallel, that we are sons of God, and have inherited His nature. I know you do not disagree with inheritance of the nature of God, so why do you disagree with the inheritance of the nature of Adam? It is the most logical and biblically-agreeing view of sin.
 
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Charis kai Dunamis

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If the first clause means Adam's sin automatically makes everyone a sinner, then the second clause would have to mean that Christ's obedience automatically makes everone righteous. I know you don't believe that.

This statement doesn't make sense-how would it be proportional to say that everyone would be made righteous by Christ's sacrifice, as everyone is made sinful by Adam's sin? We inherited Adam's sin by sonship since everyone is a son of Adam, and it is the same for those who are sons of God-but not everyone is a son of God. When we are regenerated, we are then born again of God by the Holy Spirit and made righteous. This does not apply to everyone. The imputation of Christ's righteousness to our account at the moment of regeneration points back and proves the fall of man-that Adam's sin was imputed to his sons just as Christ's righteousness is imputed to those who receive Him, and become sons of God. You are definitely missing the point of what it means to be a son.
 
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Charis kai Dunamis

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Why did Adam sin? Was he created a sinner?

You are once again focusing on externals before the internal. Adam sinned because of a change in his inclination as a result of the temptation of satan. When he was created, he was fully inclined to do good, and to please God. As soon as that focus shifted from God, he was then fully and only inclined to please himself, and thus the sin nature was born.


Was he a sinner before he sinned? Or did his act of sinning make him a sinner?
Actually, yes he was. As soon as Adam decided in his mind that he was going to disobey God and please his own desire of the flesh, he then became inclined to do sin-that which is contrary to the nature of God. That is what made him a sinner, not because he actually did sin. You must be a sinner first in order to sin. If you were not a sinner, then how could you possibly sin?
 
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Messianic Jewboy

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Sin is walking on a path that deviates from the direction that God is leading, whether willful or not.

If I am driving down a road that has no speed limit signs that does not mean I am not breaking the law if I am speeding, even if I am not doing it willfully. Replace breaking the speed limit with breaking God's heart and then explain to me how it being unintentional makes a difference.

Just like the person speeding at 55 MPH in a neighborhood where families walk their dogs and children play in the streets, I think we have at least a slight inkling when we are sinning--even if not a believer.

So, I believe that whatever turns us away from the Lord is a sin under any circumstances.

1John 3:4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness

Let's look at this another way.

Take the speed limit law. It doesn't apply to you when you are within the speed limit. It's only when you break the speed limit law it applies.

As with the speed limit law we wouldn't know we were breaking the speed limit law if we didn't know what the law was. That' why there is signs that say it. You know it when you break it.

Paul says the same thing: "If it wasn't for the law I wouldn't know what sin is"(UNQUOTE)

Marc
 
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