What is Sin

[holyrokker]

We also "miss the mark" because we are focused on the wrong target. We "miss the mark" by pursuing our own interests rather than God's interests.

That is saying that people earn salvation and righteousness . If we hit the mark - it is *we* hitting the mark - obtaining righteousness and salvation . It isn't a good definition .

Did I say we "hit the mark" - no - the Bible is very clear that ALL have sinned, that we all "miss the mark". I was just trying to say that to "miss the mark" is not from an inability to do so, rather that we refuse to aim at it. We aim at our own self-gratification rather than for God's glory.

 

[New_Wineskin]

Did I say we "hit the mark" - no - the Bible is very clear that ALL have sinned, that we all "miss the mark". I was just trying to say that to "miss the mark" is not from an inability to do so, rather that we refuse to aim at it. We aim at our own self-gratification rather than for God's glory.

Again , that makes it all about us . If we hit the mark , it will be us doing it - our ability to be righteous . It is about doing things or not doing things - hitting or missing - acts and works . It isn't about relationship .

 

[music4two]

"I was going to address your post until I read the last section. Since you are an advocate of the original sin theory, I do not see the point. If you are a serious proponent of this theory, your concept of God and Christ will not be very accurate and without that it is impossible for you to understand God’s heart about sin or forgiveness"

Please enlighten me as to how I do not understand God's heart about sin and forgiveness and give biblical support for another view besides the doctrine of original or inherent sin...

Nope not going to play on your field. It is not functional, fruitfull or entertaining.

 

[livingword26]

“The New Testament uses twelve basic words to describe sin. They are: Kakos, bad (Romans 13:3); poneros, evil (Matthew5:45); asebes, godless (Romans 1:18); enochos, guilt (Matthew 5:21); hamartia, sin (I Corinthians 6:18); adikia, unrighteousness (I Corinthians 6:9); anomos, lawlessness (I Timothy 2:9); parabates, transgression (Romans 5:14); agnoein, to be ignorant (Romans 1:13); planan, to go astray (I Corinthians 6:9); paraptomai, to fall away (Galatians 6:1); and hupocrites, hypocrite (I Timothy 4:2). From the uses of these words several conclusions may also be drawn. (1) There is always a clear standard against which sin is committed. (2) Ultimately all sin is a positive rebellion against God and a transgression of His standards. (3) Evil may assume a variety of forms. (4) Man’s responsibility is definite and clearly understood.”

Seems to me that you neglected to mention the word sin itself:

hamartia

NT:264 hamartano (ham-ar-tan'-o); perhaps from NT:1 (as a negative particle) and the base of NT:3313; properly, to miss the mark (and so not share in the prize), i.e. (figuratively) to err, especially (morally) to sin:

The bible says that:

Rom 14:23
(23) And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

and also:

Rom 11:32
(32) For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

and also:

Rom 8:21
(21) Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

To say that all sin is positive rebellion towards God is just not biblical. Many people are in bondage to sin that only God can break, and even people who are saved have a learning curve as to exactly what sin is. Even as we grow in Christ we have new understandings, about sin, and deliverance can occur over many years. Indeed manys role is clearly defined, it is to turn to Jesus Christ for salvation, deliverance and healing.

 

[holyrokker]

Again , that makes it all about us . If we hit the mark , it will be us doing it - our ability to be righteous . It is about doing things or not doing things - hitting or missing - acts and works . It isn't about relationship .

I think you're "missing the mark" of what I'm saying.

I really don't understand why you insist that I'm promoting some sort of "self" righteousness apart from God, or some sort of "self-made" goodness. I've never said any such thing.

How can someone make himself righteous apart from Christ? That's like saying a fish can breathe outside of water.

Did I say that there are people who "hit the mark" apart from Christ?

You are reading something into my words that I didn't say, nor intend to say.

 

[Peaceful Dove]

The church has accepted and embraced a definition of "Sin" that is both lame and inaccurate. "Missing the mark" is not a good definition of sin. Not hitting the bullseye in an archery contest is "missing the mark". Is that a sin?
What then is sin?

Sin is willfully, intentionally doing anything that you know is against the will of God.

Even if it isn't against the will of God but you think it is, that makes it a sin.

If however you do it and you do not know that it is against the will of God, it is not a sin. It may be a mistake. It may be breaking a law, but unless you KNOW that it is against the will of God, it is not a sin against God.

A sin can NOT be accidental. If it is not willfull or intentional, it is not a sin.

I agree.

 

[synger]

I think the equating of "sin" with overt evilness is part of the problem I run into when trying to explain why we need Jesus' grace and mercy in the first place. "Sin" in the common usage has come to mean murder, theft, rape, etc. That's not just missing the mark, that's missing the whole target!!

Time and time again I hear "But I'm a good person. I don't kill or steal or beat my kids. I'm not a sinner."

It is getting back to this idea of 'missing the mark" that helps me understand, and thus explain, that it's not just the big things... it's our every attitude and choice in life that is sinful. We are fallen people, living in a fallen world. There is good, yes, but that comes of God (even when it comes from non-Christians). And yet, we still do what we know we ought not, and we do not do as we know we ought... and that is sin, in the broadest sense.

And thus, our sinfulness cries out our need for Jesus, who through His redeeming work on the cross has conquered not only death, but sin.

 

[New_Wineskin]

I really don't understand why you insist that I'm promoting some sort of "self" righteousness apart from God, or some sort of "self-made" goodness. I've never said any such thing.

The reason that you don't understand why I am doing it is because I am *not* doing it . I am *not* insisting on anything . And , I am *not* saying or implying that you are promoting anything .

 

[Fireinfolding]

Hey, we know to MARK the ~perfect man~ (which is Jesus Christ) we are to grow up into. Is PRESSING toward the MARK for the price of the High call in in Him (considered a work?) One doesnt want to FAIL OF the GRACE of God. Its ~there~ sin has no dominion over us wherein the law (not of faith) is the very power of sin (fallen from grace) and missing the mark is right?


All these MARKS where we aiming?

Heb 10:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith

I was bored, I didnt read everything on this thread. Are ya's sorta looking at "missing the mark" as coming up behind" "failing the grace", or not "coming to full stature" after these respects?

Peace

Fireinfolding

 

[oneofGod]

What is sin? Anything that contributes to your self destruction.

 

[Thekla]

Hey, we know to MARK the ~perfect man~ (which is Jesus Christ) we are to grow up into. Is PRESSING toward the MARK for the price of the High call in in Him (considered a work?) One doesnt want to FAIL OF the GRACE of God. Its ~there~ sin has no dominion over us wherein the law (not of faith) is the very power of sin (fallen from grace) and missing the mark is right?


All these MARKS where we aiming?

Heb 10:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith

I was bored, I didnt read everything on this thread. Are ya's sorta looking at "missing the mark" as coming up behind" "failing the grace", or not "coming to full stature" after these respects?

Peace

Fireinfolding

Wow, yup !

Jesus is the "mark". However we are not Christlike - we have missed the mark

 

[Fireinfolding]

Wow, yup !

Jesus is the "mark". However we are not Christlike - we have missed the mark

Heres whats interesting Thelka, it says "Mark the perfect man" right? Job was also spoken of by God three times that he was "perfect" as well. Then there is again mentioned (after Job's words) that he did not sin in what he said. It speaks of sins of ones lips, or offending in word.

James acsribes to the perfect man (we are to grow up into) as one that ~offends not~ in WORD (interestingly enough). And "Perfect" is what we are called to be in Christ (be ye perfect). The mark is in relation to the highcall, to God in Christ (perfect man) ONE wins the prize. This is also spoken of as it pertains to the bridegroom rejoicing to run the race (to which is spoken of) in relation to finishing ~the course~ (the tongue, like a small helm, directs that course). The words (as used) relate everywhere here. To the perfect man (Christ) and his stature we are called and the perfect man as James shows him is one that offends not in word.

Thats never talked about much is it?

Peace

Fireinfolding

 

[Thekla]

Heres whats interesting Thelka, it says "Mark the perfect man" right? Job was also spoken of by God three times that he was "perfect" as well. Then there is again mentioned (after Job's words) that he did not sin in what he said. It speaks of sins of ones lips, or offending in word.

James acsribes to the perfect man (we are to grow up into) as one that ~offends not~ in WORD (interestingly enough). And "Perfect" is what we are called to be in Christ (be ye perfect). The mark is in relation to the highcall, to God in Christ (perfect man) ONE wins the prize. This is also spoken of as it pertains to the bridegroom rejoicing to run the race (to which is spoken of) in relation to finishing ~the course~ (the tongue, like a small helm, directs that course). The words (as used) relate everywhere here. To the perfect man (Christ) and his stature we are called and the perfect man as James shows him is one that offends not in word.

Thats never talked about much is it?

Peace

Fireinfolding

The tongue is called (can't remember who said it) potentially the most debased of all the "parts" of the body. Even when the heart is double, there is still in it the created potential for communion with God. But the tongue speaks what is predominant in the heart.

The Holy Spirit at Pentecost appeared as TONGUES ... wow !

"Why did the Holy Spirit appear thus ? The Spirit, Who is co-eternal with the Father and the Son, was revealed thus because God is an immaterial and indescribable and invisible fire, as Paul testifies, "our God ia a consuming fire" (Heb 12:29, Deut 2:24). God is called fire because He consumes the rust of sin.

The Spirit is co-eternal with the Son, and the tongue has the closest connection with the word... the Spirit appeared in tongues because whoever is touched by the Holy Spirit confesses the Word of God, His only-begotten Son." St. Gregory the Great

When Christ appeared after the resurrection, they didn't recognize Him, but when He spoke, their hearts were on fire !

The mark is Christ-like perfection, seen in Revelations we have His mark or the other (of the beast).

The tongue will show, in a way, what we grow up into .... our race, as Paul says is perseverance , patience. But the word in Greek is macrofimia LONG-SUFFERING.

The tongue is the hardest to curb

 

[Fireinfolding]

The tongue is called (can't remember who said it) potentially the most debased of all the "parts" of the body.

A WORLD of iniquity, thats for sure

Whats interesting is that if ONE of your members OFFENDS cut it off and that the tongue is actually a member which does (and in relation to the whole body in both places).

COOL my TONGUE (starts to make more sense lol)

Cut off the offending member?

Psalm 120:3 What shall be given unto thee? or what shall be done unto thee, thou false tongue?


Psalm 12:3 The LORD shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things:

Might be MORE PROFITTABLE for THEE that ONE MEMBER PERISH?

Even when the heart is double, there is still in it the created potential for communion with God. But the tongue speaks what is predominant in the heart.

We sure learn

Psalm 106:33 Because they provoked his spirit, so that he spake unadvisedly with his lips.

I can relate to that

The Judge stands at the door


Psalm 141:3 Set a watch, O LORD, before my mouth; keep THE DOOR of my lips.


Prov 23:16 Yea, my reins shall rejoice, when thy lips speak right things.

Prov 16:23 The heart of the wise teacheth his mouth, and addeth learning to his lips.

BRIDLE that BAD BOY

The Holy Spirit at Pentecost appeared as TONGUES ... wow !

"Why did the Holy Spirit appear thus ? The Spirit, Who is co-eternal with the Father and the Son, was revealed thus because God is an immaterial and indescribable and invisible fire, as Paul testifies, "our God ia a consuming fire" (Heb 12:29, Deut 2:24). God is called fire because He consumes the rust of sin.

The Spirit is co-eternal with the Son, and the tongue has the closest connection with the word... the Spirit appeared in tongues because whoever is touched by the Holy Spirit confesses the Word of God, His only-begotten Son." St. Gregory the Great

When Christ appeared after the resurrection, they didn't recognize Him, but when He spoke, their hearts were on fire !

The mark is Christ-like perfection, seen in Revelations we have His mark or the other (of the beast).

Yanno...God does manifest to the "sons of men" that they are as the beasts, so putting a mark on Cain makes more sense given men are shown as "natural brute beasts". Ya think we got to overcome our own face here?

Lips and destruction

Prov 13:3 He that keepeth his mouth keepeth his life: but he that openeth wide his lips shall have destruction.

It speaks of "speaking proud things" against the righteous

Prov 16:18 Pride goeth ~before~ destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

The fall and the rising again

Prov 18:12 Before ~destruction~ the heart of man is haughty, and before honour is humility.

Here its Him who turns them to it and in doing so calls them back, (so kool actually)

Psalm 90:3 Thou ~turnest man~ TO destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men.


Brute beasts are known in their "speaking against" (evil speaking) and elsewhere in the "moving of the lips evil comes to pass". Elsewhere we are filled with the fruit of our lips. Here its interesting to note the kingdom of the beast gnaws on their tongues

Rev 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

This makes even more sense now

1Peter 3:10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:

The tongue will show, in a way, what we grow up into .... our race, as Paul says is perseverance , patience. But the word in Greek is macrofimia LONG-SUFFERING.

The tongue is the hardest to curb

No man can tame it, but I betcha He can Our lips invite our own beatings.

Whats also interesting is that the power of death belong to two in the scriptures, the tongue and the devil and theres one who lays hold of the devil. That sorta gave a new spin to "no MAN can tame it"

I love studying the lips, mine should actually be more chaste knowing these things

Peace sis

Fireinfolding

 

[holo]

The opposite - we become sinners when we sin.

Sin cannot be an inherited "feature" of humanity. That would make sin a physical or genetic defect.

If sin is physical or genetic, Jesus died in vain, because He could have simply "cured" mankind.

A sinner sins because he is a sinner. He is a sinner by birth and can't really help it. A sinner doesn't become rigtheous by doing something right, but by being born again. Just like he was a sinner by nature then, now he is a saint by nature.

Jesus DID cure mankind. Actually, he didn't cure us, he allowed us to die, and then the Father re-created us.

I am a saint. There's no reason I should act like a sinner, just like there wasn't actually any reason for the prodigal son to act like a prodigal son and a swine. He was just mistaken about who he really was. Instead of asking "what pig-food should I eat today," "how will my father punish me," "what exactly IS sin, anyway?" and stuff like that, he should be more interested in righteousness and freedom and peace and rest. Luckily, even though he was badly mistaken about both his father and himself, his father had the final word, and threw him a party.

 

[holyrokker]

A sinner sins because he is a sinner. He is a sinner by birth and can't really help it. A sinner doesn't become rigtheous by doing something right, but by being born again. Just like he was a sinner by nature then, now he is a saint by nature.

Jesus DID cure mankind. Actually, he didn't cure us, he allowed us to die, and then the Father re-created us.

I am a saint. There's no reason I should act like a sinner, just like there wasn't actually any reason for the prodigal son to act like a prodigal son and a swine. He was just mistaken about who he really was. Instead of asking "what pig-food should I eat today," "how will my father punish me," "what exactly IS sin, anyway?" and stuff like that, he should be more interested in righteousness and freedom and peace and rest. Luckily, even though he was badly mistaken about both his father and himself, his father had the final word, and threw him a party.

How can someone be a sinner before he has ever sinned? Or do you think that somehow we sin even before we are born?

Is this sin built into us while God is forming us in our mothers' wombs?

Where does this sin come from?

Sorry, I can't see a justification in Scripture for the doctrine that we are born sinners. It just doesn't match up.

 

[music4two]

How can someone be a sinner before he has ever sinned? Or do you think that somehow we sin even before we are born?

Is this sin built into us while God is forming us in our mothers' wombs?

Where does this sin come from?

Sorry, I can't see a justification in Scripture for the doctrine that we are born sinners. It just doesn't match up.

If we are born simnners then all babies that die or are aborted go to Hell. This smudges the character of God and no matter how many scriptures a person uses to prove it, it cannot be true.

 

[holyrokker]

If we are born sinners then all babies that die or are aborted go to Hell. This smudges the character of God and no matter how many scriptures a person uses to prove it, it cannot be true.

You are right in saying that this insidious doctrine besmirches God's character. On top of that, it can't be proven from Scripture. There are only a few verses, when lifted out of context, can be twisted into it.

 

[clayforHim648]

Hey Music...we're back at it again...

you said:

If we are born sinners then all babies that die or are aborted go to Hell. This smudges the character of God and no matter how many scriptures a person uses to prove it, it cannot be true.

I say:

I admit that the thought is detestable to me.... but if we believe that salvation can only come from faith, faith in Christ to be exact, then how can babies or anyone else under the sun be held to any other standard?

 

[livingword26]

Hey Music...we're back at it again...

you said:

If we are born sinners then all babies that die or are aborted go to Hell. This smudges the character of God and no matter how many scriptures a person uses to prove it, it cannot be true.

I say:

I admit that the thought is detestable to me.... but if we believe that salvation can only come from faith, faith in Christ to be exact, then how can babies or anyone else under the sun be held to any other standard?

It's called mercy. God does not condemn a baby to hell. How little you know about God.