What is Real?

[Ana the Ist]

Sorry about the delay in responding.

No worries.

I’ll address the “virtual world” first and will probably have to post responses to the other stuff in another post.

I actually build games. I’m not the best at it because it takes a lot of time to do, but I am coming from a game maker’s perspective. I’ve also been an avid game player since the days of pong. lol

The point is not how close we can build a virtual world to our own. The point is not whether or not the NPCs (non-player characters) are alive, or how advanced they are, or if they are self-aware. The point is that we can make an environment. We can determine how that environment works.

Does that "environment" exist any way other than pixels on a screen and the coding language?

We can determine what is possible within that environment. We can make a system for how what is in or part of the environment functions within that environment. The environment has laws, however primitive, that govern what can and cannot happen within that environment. So, the environment has “laws” and anything that is part of that environment is subject to those laws, unless of course loopholes to the laws were made.

Do those laws exist in any way other than as pixels and coding language?

Even though the environment consists of laws that govern how everything functions within it, what is behind that environment is a programming language that makes that environment possible. The language and the code written in the language is what is really driving the environment. The laws of the environment pertain to the environment. This does not change what the environment is. It just means that a language is behind it.

All the same things could be said about the gif of mario that I put in my last post.

 

[akaDaScribe]

No worries.



Does that "environment" exist any way other than pixels on a screen and the coding language?



Do those laws exist in any way other than as pixels and coding language?



All the same things could be said about the gif of mario that I put in my last post.

“Does that "environment" exist any way other than pixels on a screen and the coding language?”

“Do those laws exist in any way other than as pixels and coding language?”

“All the same things could be said about the gif of mario that I put in my last post.”

Correct.

The thing is, just because it’s not impressive compared to our universe, does not diminish that fact that everything in the environment consists of laws/rules/parameters and those laws/rules/parameters are defined through the use of a language. So the pixels are a visuals for the sake of the players, much like the chess board and its pieces are there for the sake of the players, but if the screen was black, the character would still stop when it runs into a wall, and you don’t need the board or the pieces for a game of chess.

 

[Ana the Ist]

“Does that "environment" exist any way other than pixels on a screen and the coding language?”

“Do those laws exist in any way other than as pixels and coding language?”

“All the same things could be said about the gif of mario that I put in my last post.”

Correct.

I'm guessing your answers to the questions in order are no, no, and yes.

The thing is, just because it’s not impressive compared to our universe, does not diminish that fact that everything in the environment consists of laws/rules/parameters and those laws/rules/parameters are defined through the use of a language.

It's got nothing to do with what's impressive...it has to do with what it is.

So the pixels are a visuals for the sake of the players, much like the chess board and its pieces are there for the sake of the players,

Without the pieces there is no chess. How would you play chess without any pieces?

but if the screen was black, the character would still stop when it runs into a wall, and you don’t need the board or the pieces for a game of chess.

What character? The lines of code don't make a "character"....they make pixels light up. That is specifically what they do. If you remove the pixels, then you have lines of code that do nothing.

Once you have the pixels lit up in a certain way that looks like a person...all you have are the pixels lit up in a certain way that looks like a person. The character is a concept that only exists in the mind.

After Overwatch was out for awhile, it was revealed that one of the heroes was a lesbian. That wasn't reflected in the game in any way....it was simply decided by the game creators that she was gay. How can that happen if she exists apart from a concept?

 

[akaDaScribe]

I'm guessing your answers to the questions in order are no, no, and yes.

It's got nothing to do with what's impressive...it has to do with what it is.

Without the pieces there is no chess. How would you play chess without any pieces?

What character? The lines of code don't make a "character"....they make pixels light up. That is specifically what they do. If you remove the pixels, then you have lines of code that do nothing.

Once you have the pixels lit up in a certain way that looks like a person...all you have are the pixels lit up in a certain way that looks like a person. The character is a concept that only exists in the mind.

After Overwatch was out for awhile, it was revealed that one of the heroes was a lesbian. That wasn't reflected in the game in any way....it was simply decided by the game creators that she was gay. How can that happen if she exists apart from a concept?

Without the pieces there is no chess. How would you play chess without any pieces?

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd4 4. Nd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Bc4 e6 7. O-O b5 8. Bb3 b4 9. Nb1 Bd7 10. Be3 Nc6 11. f3 Be7 12. c3 bc3 13. Nc6 Bc6 14. Nc3 O-O 15. Rc1 Qb8 16. Nd5 ed5 17. Rc6 de4 18. fe4 Qb5 19. Rb6 Qe5 20. Bd4 Qg5 21. Qf3 Nd7 22. Rb7 Ne5 23. Qe2 Bf6 24. Kh1 a5 25. Bd5 Rac8 26. Bc3 a4 27. Ra7 Ng4 28. Ra4 Bc3 29. bc3 Rc3 30. Rf7 Rc1 31. Qf1 h5 32. Qc1 Qh4 33. Rf8 Kh7 34. h3 Qg3 35. hg4 h4 36. Be6

The same way you could play battleship with nothing, or a much easier game, tic tac toe

What character? The lines of code don't make a "character"....they make pixels light up. That is specifically what they do. If you remove the pixels, then you have lines of code that do nothing.

If you move Mario over to a cliff turn off the TV and move forward, when you turn the TV back on, he will no longer be on the cliff. Why? Because the pixels are not the environment. The pixels are images that make it easier to interpret the environment.

Once you have the pixels lit up in a certain way that looks like a person...all you have are the pixels lit up in a certain way that looks like a person. The character is a concept that only exists in the mind.

To some degree, you have to look at more than the mechanics of things, or you won’t be able to see more than the mechanics. If I try to tell you something about stars wars, but you can only focus on the fact that it is a secession of images coupled with a succession of sounds, we can’t really discuss it as a movie. You would be limiting yourself significantly.

 

[Ana the Ist]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd4 4. Nd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Bc4 e6 7. O-O b5 8. Bb3 b4 9. Nb1 Bd7 10. Be3 Nc6 11. f3 Be7 12. c3 bc3 13. Nc6 Bc6 14. Nc3 O-O 15. Rc1 Qb8 16. Nd5 ed5 17. Rc6 de4 18. fe4 Qb5 19. Rb6 Qe5 20. Bd4 Qg5 21. Qf3 Nd7 22. Rb7 Ne5 23. Qe2 Bf6 24. Kh1 a5 25. Bd5 Rac8 26. Bc3 a4 27. Ra7 Ng4 28. Ra4 Bc3 29. bc3 Rc3 30. Rf7 Rc1 31. Qf1 h5 32. Qc1 Qh4 33. Rf8 Kh7 34. h3 Qg3 35. hg4 h4 36. Be6

The same way you could play battleship with nothing, or a much easier game, tic tac toe

Those instructions mean nothing to anyone who doesn't know the board and pieces. If I give them to someone who never played chess...they wouldn't suddenly be able to play chess.

If you move Mario over to a cliff turn off the TV and move forward, when you turn the TV back on, he will no longer be on the cliff. Why?

Because you inputted different instructions for which pixels should light up.

Because the pixels are not the environment. The pixels are images that make it easier to interpret the environment.

Most modern games have worked around "loading screens" but in the past, games frequently incorporated a still image while the game waits to load. Why would that be necessary in an "environment"?

Or for that matter, how do you explain glitches, clipping, or draw-in distance?

To some degree, you have to look at more than the mechanics of things, or you won’t be able to see more than the mechanics. If I try to tell you something about stars wars, but you can only focus on the fact that it is a secession of images coupled with a succession of sounds, we can’t really discuss it as a movie. You would be limiting yourself significantly.

Nobody is trying to convince me that by creating the Star Wars movie, they've created an "environment" with "laws" that the characters would consider a part of their own reality.

If they were, I can assure you, I would be having a similar conversation with them.

 

[durangodawood]

Seems to be some confusion around here about whats fact and whats fiction.

Fact: actual stuff and real people.

Fiction: symbols that prompt our imagination to think about stuff and people.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Seems to be some confusion around here about whats fact and whats fiction.

Fact: actual stuff and real people.

Fiction: symbols that prompt our imagination to think about stuff and people.

There's a "simulation argument" I've seen some believers latch onto as if it lends credence to their beliefs. They make analogies between computer code and physics or dna and then pretend there's some similarities there.

I've no way of knowing if that's where he was going with this...but I felt it was better to nip it in the bud before it got there.

 

[FIRESTORM314]

Is the spiritual realm real?

Well you'd need some spiritual tool for measuring it - believers have the holy Spirit - unbelievers do not so trying to convince an outsider along these lines would be hard work

I do think an observational study may tip the argument. Spiritual powers operate in this world so one way of seeing into this hidden realm is to make an observation of how human behavior and events are influenced by such spiritual powers? Statistics or evidence that show outside influence ( for good or bad ) of some sort may well reveal the hidden realms to those who do not posses spiritual gifts.

 

[durangodawood]

Is the spiritual realm real?

Well you'd need some spiritual tool for measuring it - believers have the holy Spirit - unbelievers do not so trying to convince an outsider along these lines would be hard work...

How did you get convinced of the holy spirit?

 

[JoeP222w]

What is real?

That which comports to the truth of God.

Does something have to be tangible to be real?

Logic is real, but it is not something you can hold in your hands. Something that is real does not require a physical presence to be real.

 

[durangodawood]

....Logic is real, but it is not something you can hold in your hands. Something that is real does not require a physical presence to be real.

"Real" is a slippery word.

In another context you might well find yourself using "real" to mean physical actuality.

 

[Neogaia777]

If there were a very advanced species that wanted to observe us and possibly be among us, if they could do this completely undetected, don't you think they would...?

I think they did or are...

God Bless!

 

[Ana the Ist]

Is the spiritual realm real?

Well you'd need some spiritual tool for measuring it - believers have the holy Spirit - unbelievers do not so trying to convince an outsider along these lines would be hard work

I do think an observational study may tip the argument. Spiritual powers operate in this world so one way of seeing into this hidden realm is to make an observation of how human behavior and events are influenced by such spiritual powers? Statistics or evidence that show outside influence ( for good or bad ) of some sort may well reveal the hidden realms to those who do not posses spiritual gifts.

There's been multiple studies...of many kinds....none have ever yielded any evidence of the "spiritual".

What can you conclude from that?

 

[Neogaia777]

There's been multiple studies...of many kinds....none have ever yielded any evidence of the "spiritual".

What can you conclude from that?

That they are so far advanced that they can remain completely hidden and yet still affect us and be among us if they wish, and since they can remain undetected and undetectable, and still control us, that is what they choose to do, possibly from another realm or place of existence or dimension that we cannot detect...

Just my thoughts...

God Bless!

 

[Ana the Ist]

That they are so far advanced that they can remain completely hidden and yet still affect us and be among us if they wish, and since they can remain undetected and undetectable, and still control us, that is what they choose to do, possibly from another realm or place of existence or dimension that we cannot detect...

Just my thoughts...

God Bless!

No offense, but if they're undetectable, then why believe in "them"?

 

[Neogaia777]

No offense, but if they're undetectable, then why believe in "them"?

Some of us have personal experiences and evidence, that we feel could have only been God, and then there are other ways of detecting, not them, but there work, for those who look for and see such...

Some very few may have even been witnesses to them appearing, or feel like they have encountered one of these angels in a human being or human form, but maybe didn't know it till afterward, that kind of thing...

Some of us see nothing, some of us see God, guess that's just the way it is...

God Bless!

 

[Ana the Ist]

Some of us have personal experiences and evidence, that we feel could have only been God, and then there are other ways of detecting, not them, but there work, for those who look for and see such...

Some very few may have even been witnesses to them appearing, or feel like they have encountered one of these angels in a human being or human form, but maybe didn't know it till afterward, that kind of thing...

Some of us see nothing, some of us see God, guess that's just the way it is...

God Bless!

You make it sound like it's a matter of perspective.

Some of us look at the results of a trial and see justice done. Some of us look at the results of the exact same trial...and see an injustice done.

That's an issue of perspective.

The thing is though...there is something that one can have a perspective about. Namely, the trial. It has facts, those facts are real...they happened. You follow me here?

The problem occurs when one makes the same claim about the spiritual....what are the facts? What is the real thing that happened which we can have different perspectives about?

 

[Neogaia777]

You make it sound like it's a matter of perspective.

Some of us look at the results of a trial and see justice done. Some of us look at the results of the exact same trial...and see an injustice done.

That's an issue of perspective.

The thing is though...there is something that one can have a perspective about. Namely, the trial. It has facts, those facts are real...they happened. You follow me here?

The problem occurs when one makes the same claim about the spiritual....what are the facts? What is the real thing that happened which we can have different perspectives about?

Those are some very good thought provoking questions... My daughter posted something on Facebook, and it was a post that said, "Ever (look around you and) wonder just what the "bleep" is (really) going on here...?"

And I commented and said, "Well, that is the big question isn't..."

And that's basically what I've got to say, these kind of questions you are asking is kind of the big, or primary questions, aren't they...?

Most of which I can't answer definitively, but do ponder like you do...

God Bless!

 

[Ana the Ist]

Those are some very good thought provoking questions... My daughter posted something on Facebook, and it was a post that said, "Ever (look around you and) wonder just what the "bleep" is (really) going on here...?"

And I commented and said, "Well, that is the big question isn't..."

And that's basically what I've got to say, these kind of questions you are asking is kind of the big, or primary questions, aren't they...?

Most of which I can't answer definitively, but do ponder like you do...

God Bless!

I don't ponder questions that I don't think I can answer. I certainly don't accept answers to those questions unless they come from someone who demonstrates an expertise far beyond mine own.

I don't think you should either.

 

[Neogaia777]

Those are some very good thought provoking questions... My daughter posted something on Facebook, and it was a post that said, "Ever (look around you and) wonder just what the "bleep" is (really) going on here...?"

And I commented and said, "Well, that is the big question isn't..."

And that's basically what I've got to say, these kind of questions you are asking is kind of the big, or primary questions, aren't they...?

Most of which I can't answer definitively, but do ponder like you do...

God Bless!

However I do think the answer to "what is really going on here" lies in the spiritual... As well as some other questions like questions like these bring up; the meaning of life, the purpose of existence, who you or we really are, ect, philosophical questions and the like, I have to believe that the (ultimate) answers to most of these questions lie in the spiritual, and besides my personal experiencial evdience I feel I have, these things have caused me to seek the spiritual...

God Bless!