What is Real?

[Neogaia777]

I don't ponder questions that I don't think I can answer.

Your no fun...

I certainly don't accept answers to those questions unless they come from someone who demonstrates an expertise far beyond mine own.

I don't think you should either.

I don't... I go to God and get them from him, does that qualify...?

God Bless!

 

[Ana the Ist]

However I do think the answer to "what is really going on here" lies in the spiritual... As well as some other questions like questions like these bring up; the meaning of life, the purpose of existence, who you or we really are, ect, philosophical questions and the like, I have to believe that the (ultimate) answers to most of these questions lie in the spiritual, and besides my personal experiencial evdience I feel I have, these things have caused me to seek the spiritual...

God Bless!

Let's simplify this...

What is "the spiritual" or "the spiritual realm"? What does that word actually mean?

I don't want an answer telling me what it isnt....for example, I don't want to hear that it's "not physical" or "not worldly"...I want you to tell me what it is.

Make sense? So tell me what the spiritual is...

 

[Ana the Ist]

Your no fun...


I don't... I go to God and get them from him, does that qualify...?

God Bless!

I don't know that it does....

The thing is, if the question is sufficiently large enough/important enough/all encompassing....then the risk of being wrong is far far worse than never answering at all.

 

[Neogaia777]

Let's simplify this...

What is "the spiritual" or "the spiritual realm"? What does that word actually mean?

I don't want an answer telling me what it isnt....for example, I don't want to hear that it's "not physical" or "not worldly"...I want you to tell me what it is.

Make sense? So tell me what the spiritual is...

Another dimension or reality another world/realm where a different kind of existence is possible, with beings that each have a mind, heart, will and emotions like us that live or exist there... Where physics is very much different, cause the reality is very much different, but some things are still "kind of like the same" about us or between us and them, and I believe it is through these things that they have tried to communicate their world or realm of existence to us...

But, it is place that may be beyond our comprehension right now... It is another "layer" of reality... It also could be a place where they may be phased or their reality might be of a different phase than ours which makes detection extremely difficult...

There are many things you could call it or say it is or they are, but these are the ones I can think of right now...

God Bless!

 

[Ana the Ist]

Another dimension or reality another world where a different kind of existence is possible, with beings that each have a mind, heart, will and emotions like us that live or exist there... Where physics is very much different, cause the reality is very much different, but some things are still "kind of like the same" about us or between us and them, and I believe it is through these things that they have tried to communicate their world or realm of existence to us...

If it's real...and it exists...and it can in some way connect or breach into our "existence"...why can't we "detect" these breaches?

But, it is place that may be beyond our comprehension right now... It is another "layer" of reality... It also could be a place where they may be phased or their reality might be of a different phase than ours which makes detection extremely difficult...

I don't know what "phase" means here.

There are many things you could call it or say it is or they are, but these are the ones I can think of right now...

God Bless!

Right...and I bet if I were to start a thread asking others this same question, others would come up with equally improbable answers.

The OP basically referred to this state of "existence" as "immaterial"...but was unable to elaborate. I've also heard "supernatural"....and occasionally "paranormal".

To me....the general vagueness of the answers, and the way these answers are used, tells me more about these concepts than the people actually holding them. You see, it's always a vague answer...so that it can be used as a stand in for phenomena that someone believes is significant. Often, these phenomena are simply emotional reactions...or coincidences...but occasionally hallucinations and delusions.

Our brains are very good at the work they do. They provide us a story about the information that we receive...so in that way, it becomes a part of our understanding. The problem is that the story doesn't necessarily reflect reality in any way at all. The difficult part is understanding which part is story and what the raw information is...the difference between these two is fantasy and reality.

 

[Neogaia777]

If it's real...and it exists...and it can in some way connect or breach into our "existence"...why can't we "detect" these breaches?

I don't know, but if they do not want to be detected, especially by all, then they probably would not do it in a way that we could detect...

I don't know what "phase" means here.

Theoretically, matter can "phase" and be in different phased states, and basically you could phase matter to exist separate in a separate and different places from what normal matter is or we are in right now, or another reality or realm where you could exist, no one seems to know what these places are like but just that matter can "phase", in theory...

Right...and I bet if I were to start a thread asking others this same question, others would come up with equally improbable answers.

The OP basically referred to this state of "existence" as "immaterial"...but was unable to elaborate. I've also heard "supernatural"....and occasionally "paranormal".

To me....the general vagueness of the answers, and the way these answers are used, tells me more about these concepts than the people actually holding them. You see, it's always a vague answer...so that it can be used as a stand in for phenomena that someone believes is significant. Often, these phenomena are simply emotional reactions...or coincidences...but occasionally hallucinations and delusions.

Our brains are very good at the work they do. They provide us a story about the information that we receive...so in that way, it becomes a part of our understanding. The problem is that the story doesn't necessarily reflect reality in any way at all. The difficult part is understanding which part is story and what the raw information is...the difference between these two is fantasy and reality.

I can't speak for everyone, but it took a lot for me to believe, and I feel like mine is pretty logical and solid, but as for others, "religious" and "spiritual" people, I don't speak for them, most of them, cause some of them are or seem kind of "way out there", or a little "woo" or loo loo to me, anyway I do not feel like I am like most of them...

God Bless![/QUOTE]

 

[Ana the Ist]

I don't know, but if they do not want to be detected, especially by all, then they probably would not do it in a way that we could detect...

It seems like they'd have to know an awful lot about us without us knowing anything about them just to be able to do that.

Why would they only want "some people" aware of them?

Theoretically, matter can "phase" and be in different phased states,

Sure...solid, liquid, gas...etc.

Phase (matter) - Wikipedia

and basically you could phase matter to exist separate in a separate and different places from what normal matter is or we are in right now, or another reality or realm where you could exist, no one seems to know what these places are like but just that matter can "phase", in theory...

I couldn't find anything on that. Got a link?

I can't speak for everyone, but it took a lot for me to believe, and I feel like mine is pretty logical and solid, but as for others, "religious" and "spiritual" people, I don't speak for them, most of them, cause some of them are or seem kind of "way out there", or a little "woo" or loo loo to me, anyway I do not feel like I am like most of them...

God Bless!

I don't expect you to speak for anyone else...just telling the way I see it.

 

[Neogaia777]

It seems like they'd have to know an awful lot about us without us knowing anything about them just to be able to do that.

Maybe that's the way they want it, the way they made it, or made it to be possibly...?

Why would they only want "some people" aware of them?

It's not just that it's "some people", but they don't want to or won't disturb anything to the point of being detected by say the masses or the world (yet)...

Sure...solid, liquid, gas...etc.

Phase (matter) - Wikipedia

I couldn't find anything on that. Got a link?

I'll try to find one, it's just a common theoretical theory, that I can't remember if they could prove or test of not yet, but, anyway, it is in all kinds of science fiction shows, I've seen the theory come up in many different multiple series and episodes, but, I'll try to find a link about the theory, ok, and I think I want to find out if they could test it or not also, or what the theory is based on that some may think proves it...

I don't expect you to speak for anyone else...just telling the way I see it.

Thanks,

God Bless!

 

[Ana the Ist]

Maybe that's the way they want it, the way they made it, or made it to be possibly...?

That's not an explanation.

It's not just that it's "some people", but they don't want to or won't disturb anything to the point of being detected by say the masses or the world (yet)...

What reason do you have to think this?

I'll try to find one, it's just a common theoretical theory, that I can't remember if they could prove or test of not yet, but, anyway, it is in all kinds of science fiction shows...

Science fiction shows?

If it's based on something in actual science....fine, I'm interested. If it isn't...then you might as well call it "magic", and please take a second look at my statement about fantasy and reality.

 

[Neogaia777]

That's not an explanation.

Look, I think the only way they could be detected in any way is if they wanted to be detected, seen, ect... They may only show themselves to people in ways that one, they knew no one would believe or believe them anyway (these people) or in normal more literal more direct ways (like appearing to someone) to some very few, when they could get away with it without being detected or becoming known by the world or the masses...

What reason do you have to think this?

Aghh, it's a long story, let's just say I know OK... I've been through some things, seen some things, and know some things (a little bit) about them and that place...

Science fiction shows?

If it's based on something in actual science....fine, I'm interested. If it isn't...then you might as well call it "magic", and please take a second look at my statement about fantasy and reality.

Ha, Ha, Ha, funny, I'll try to find out OK...

Or, Maybe I'll just talk with the guys in the Physical and Life Sciences forum about it...? And find out that way, K...? Then get back to you...

God Bless!

 

[Ana the Ist]

Look, I think the only way they could be detected in any way is if they wanted to be detected, seen, ect... They may only show themselves to people in ways that one, they knew no one would believe or believe them anyway (these people) or in normal more literal more direct ways (like appearing to someone) to some very few, when they could get away with it without being detected or becoming known by the world or the masses...

No offense, but it stands to reason that if they can be detected at all, then we could somehow detect them in some way....these people from another existence.

Aghh, it's a long story, let's just say I know OK... I've been through some things, seen some things, and know some things (a little bit) about them and that place...

That's not an explanation.

Ha, Ha, Ha, funny, I'll try to find out OK...

Or, Maybe I'll just talk with the guys in the Physical and Life Sciences forum about it...? And find out that way, K...? Then get back to you...

God Bless!

I looked it up myself...found nothing. I've never heard of it. I'm inclined to think it's something that you got from science fiction until you can show otherwise.

 

[JoeP222w]

"Real" is a slippery word.

In another context you might well find yourself using "real" to mean physical actuality.

"Real" certainly does apply to the physical, but it does not apply to only the physical.

 

[Neogaia777]

No offense, but it stands to reason that if they can be detected at all, then we could somehow detect them in some way....these people from another existence.

No it doesn't "stand to reason" that... Have our methods and abilities of detection always been the same over the years, over the centuries...? No, they have not... And "it stands to reason" that we will continue improving our methods of detection and coming up with new ones, and new ways and methods of detection for newly discovered things... Unless your saying we know everything right now, or you think we've discovered everything there is (to be discovered) already...? I think there are many, many things we cannot detect, nor have discovered, yet...

That's not an explanation.

Well, it's the best I can give you for now...

I looked it up myself...found nothing. I've never heard of it. I'm inclined to think it's something that you got from science fiction until you can show otherwise.

Look I will find out and get back to you, but phasing matter was just one possibility I mentioned, of how beings there became beings there?, how they might have went from where we are now to where they are now, just one possibility, there are many more... But nothing certain and mostly theory right now...

I'm taking off for a few days and so won't be able to get back to you till after then... Going camping...

Anyway,

God Bless!

 

[FIRESTORM314]

There's been multiple studies...of many kinds....none have ever yielded any evidence of the "spiritual".

What can you conclude from that?

Your analysis of the studies was biased

You can't measure or observe the spiritual realms directly. We have only the five senses and scientific instruments that measure objects in our physical world. We conclude using theories and maths that some things exist before we actually find them. I wonder if man in his ingenuity will actually invent a device that does peer into the spiritual...

So until then - from an atheist point of view - it's pure nonsense until proved true.

Personal christian testimony is one method - I have seen therefore I know.


So .. how would the spiritual realms affect human behaviour and can we find evidence of such influence? Being honest - I've never given it much thought. Thinking Logically - Christianity affected Europe and parts of the East for quite a proportion of time but did not have much influence in the Far East such as China, Japan, etc. I'd be looking for contrasts over these two different cultures over time.


Closer to home...

How about Atheist in British Jails are over represented. Jail studies have shown a higher proportion of Atheist in Jail than that indicated in the UK Census. There could be many reasons for this but one reason may be that such people are easy targets for Demonic Activity - no allies, no protection from God, no law or ethics to live up to...

Maybe the Athiest are just not as educated and that's why there are more of them in Jail than there should be - they don't get the same chances in life ! What say ye?

 

[FIRESTORM314]

How did you get convinced of the holy spirit?

Well after 7847 messages - you are certainly not a new seeker so I'm not at all convinced I can convince you of the TRUTH.

What is Truth?

I sort of realised from a young age that not all was well with the world and that leads to some deeper thinking. I had also been exposed to the death of my father at an early age and that gets one asking about life and death and the meaning of it all...

At the age of 10 or so I was in bed at night in the dark and was pinned down by two dark shadowy figures. I had a bit of a fight and a struggle and released myself and then they fled away.First Contact.

At age 12 I was up in the night unable to sleep and went downstairs - A spirit stood in my way at the top of the stairs and then came down right past me. Second Contact

At age 24 I was very ill and in hospital and was heading for an early exit from this world. I was taken to a church by a nurse ( who was my girlfriend at the time). I went out for prayer at the end of the meeting - then I was filled with the Holy Spirit. A fire came into me ( my legs shook under the force of it ) A presence surrounded me and literally my physical complexion changed from deathly pale and gaunt to someone who was radiant and glowing in an instant.The presence stayed with me for a few days. Third Contact.

After that - I was aware I had insight into the spiritual - my eyes were opened. God spoke to me in dreams and sometimes audibly. I had been born of the Spirit so to speak.

John 3:11
Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony.

Luke 24:31
Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight.

2 Corinthians 4:18
So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

 

[akaDaScribe]

There's a "simulation argument" I've seen some believers latch onto as if it lends credence to their beliefs. They make analogies between computer code and physics or dna and then pretend there's some similarities there.

I've no way of knowing if that's where he was going with this...but I felt it was better to nip it in the bud before it got there.

I'm not sure why you think it is a Christian concept. Read up on it and you will find more people in scientific fields looking at it than religious people. This is where computing is going. But you are right. You did "nip it in the bud." When I realized you weren't really interested looking at different perspectives, there was no point in continuing.

 

[akaDaScribe]

I'm not sure why you think it is a Christian concept. Read up on it and you will find more people in scientific fields looking at it than religious people. This is where computing is going. But you are right. You did "nip it in the bud." When I realized you weren't really interested looking at different perspectives, there was no point in continuing.

Just a couple of articles about the universe being a simulation. Most of them say that it couldn't be done because of the number of particles in the universe. Of course, we have a history of the science establishment saying what is impossible based on what they know at the time. I'm just leaving these articles to point out that it is something scientists have been looking into and working on.

https://phys.org/news/2017-06-largest-virtual-universe-simulated.html

Physicists find we’re not living in a computer simulation | Cosmos

Are We Living in a Computer Simulation?

Is Life a Computer Simulation?

Good news! We're probably not living in a computer simulation.

Sorry, Elon. Physicists say we definitely aren't living in a computer simulation.

Are You Living in a Simulation?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Your analysis of the studies was biased

Lol and I'm sure you would approach them from a place of impartial objectivity.

You can't measure or observe the spiritual realms directly. We have only the five senses and scientific instruments that measure objects in our physical world. We conclude using theories and maths that some things exist before we actually find them. I wonder if man in his ingenuity will actually invent a device that does peer into the spiritual...

Well one example I was thinking of was a study on whether or not prayer affected people in the hospital recovering from some event (heart attack I think?).

There was no measurable positive effect. It made no difference how many people prayed....or how they knew the subject. There was a slight negative effect...but they believed it was caused by the stress of "knowing" that people were praying for them.

So until then - from an atheist point of view - it's pure nonsense until proved true.

Personal christian testimony is one method - I have seen therefore I know.

Sure...but I don't recall ever hearing any believer (of any kind, not just christians) claiming to have "seen" god. As to "seeing" the spiritual...I'd like to know what that means in your mind.

So .. how would the spiritual realms affect human behaviour and can we find evidence of such influence? Being honest - I've never given it much thought. Thinking Logically - Christianity affected Europe and parts of the East for quite a proportion of time but did not have much influence in the Far East such as China, Japan, etc. I'd be looking for contrasts over these two different cultures over time.

Sure....but what type of effects are we talking about? Witch hunts? The literacy rates? These aren't going to be proof of the "spiritual" if they're better explained by other mechanisms.

Closer to home...

How about Atheist in British Jails are over represented. Jail studies have shown a higher proportion of Atheist in Jail than that indicated in the UK Census. There could be many reasons for this but one reason may be that such people are easy targets for Demonic Activity - no allies, no protection from God, no law or ethics to live up to...

I'd need to see some statistics on that before I believed it. The only ones that I could find show that atheists are underrepresented in prisons in the UK. The category of "not religious" was about half of the population in prison....but over half of the UK identifies as "not religious"...so there's no real correlation there.

Maybe the Athiest are just not as educated and that's why there are more of them in Jail than there should be - they don't get the same chances in life ! What say ye?

Let's see some stats. Everything I could find shows something different from what you're claiming here.

 

[Ana the Ist]

When I realized you weren't really interested looking at different perspectives, there was no point in continuing.

Is that what happened? Or did I just disagree and raise some points you couldn't respond to?

It's a theory...and one widely agreed to be without merit...I stand with the scientists on this one. If that was all you wanted to discuss, you could've just started with it.

 

[Ana the Ist]

No it doesn't "stand to reason" that... Have our methods and abilities of detection always been the same over the years, over the centuries...? No, they have not... And "it stands to reason" that we will continue improving our methods of detection and coming up with new ones, and new ways and methods of detection for newly discovered things... Unless your saying we know everything right now, or you think we've discovered everything there is (to be discovered) already...? I think there are many, many things we cannot detect, nor have discovered, yet...

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you...

So far, I thought you were claiming that these "spiritual people" are detected by people here on earth....by means that we already possess.

If that isn't what you're saying, then please clarify what you meant.

Well, it's the best I can give you for now...

Ok.

Look I will find out and get back to you, but phasing matter was just one possibility I mentioned, of how beings there became beings there?, how they might have went from where we are now to where they are now, just one possibility, there are many more... But nothing certain and mostly theory right now...

Perhaps you and I have a different understanding of "possibility". For something to be a possibility, it has to exist within the realm of "what is possible". It cannot simply be something that someone imagined.

For example, life on other planets is a possibility....because we know life exists on this planet. However, the idea that the universe was created by a race of super intelligent magical slugs is not a "possibility".

So until this phasing idea fleshes out...it's not on the list of what I would call "possibilities".

I'm taking off for a few days and so won't be able to get back to you till after then... Going camping...

Anyway,

God Bless!

Have fun!