What is Real?

[FIRESTORM314]

Lol and I'm sure you would approach them from a place of impartial objectivity.

I've questioned my faith and the working out of it many times - and I've even had my faith tantrums were I've pushed God a little too far and got a reaction from him to put me in order. This approach is not recommended but I did get some valuable feedback and boundaries set in place. The evidence in my own life is overwhelming - I cannot deny it even though I push against it. It's much easier to pretend God does not exist and live as such than go against the "forces" of our nature.

What is Truth?

I say your reasoning ( even mine ) are all biased by our own basic instincts. Our logic, rationality, and reasoning all affected by the inner "beast" and therefore our conclusions are not always accurate or truthful. The instrument of our reasoning is in itself - basically flawed.

I say your base instinct rejects God - it is down to a question of sovereignty or self rule. Our reasoning is affected at this level. Therefore all information and facts are filtered out to confirm our decision we have already made at this deeper level.

John 16:9
The world’s sin is unbelief in me

 

[FIRESTORM314]

Well one example I was thinking of was a study on whether or not prayer affected people in the hospital recovering from some event (heart attack I think?).

There was no measurable positive effect. It made no difference how many people prayed....or how they knew the subject. There was a slight negative effect...but they believed it was caused by the stress of "knowing" that people were praying for them.

I was as good as dead ( so to speak ). I was prayed for and powerfully filled with the Holy Spirit such that my body and flesh was restored to life.

John 8:32
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.

 

[FIRESTORM314]

Sure...but I don't recall ever hearing any believer (of any kind, not just christians) claiming to have "seen" god. As to "seeing" the spiritual...I'd like to know what that means in your mind.

Sure....but what type of effects are we talking about? Witch hunts? The literacy rates? These aren't going to be proof of the "spiritual" if they're better explained by other mechanisms.

I focused on the Spiritual realms rather than just God for the purpose of highlighting another reality or "world" that is normally invisible to the human eye and undetectable with our senses. Such an invisible world would "probably" consist of many lifeforms all interacting in some way or other with each other. Then they could "probably" interact and influence us in some way. Can the spiritual ( should it exist ) actually move in the physical world - can they ( assuming a limited life-form of some sort ) lift a brick physically or would they need to influence us to do it for them.

I was suggesting that even though we cannot see them - we should be able to observe the effects of their behaviour - if they can indeed influence us to act on their behalf such as lift a brick. If they can influence us to do a small thing like lift a brick for them then it logically follows that they might be able to influence world events.

Salvation by faith is a necessity according to the bible - so absolute proof before hand is not an option. It seems our own will and intellect itself is on trial? What we conclude determines our outcome. Do the research - assemble the facts but also know at the deeper level your reasoning is flawed and biased to the self?

1 Corinthians 1:19
For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."

Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

 

[FIRESTORM314]

I'd need to see some statistics on that before I believed it. The only ones that I could find show that atheists are underrepresented in prisons in the UK. The category of "not religious" was about half of the population in prison....but over half of the UK identifies as "not religious"...so there's no real correlation there.


Let's see some stats. Everything I could find shows something different from what you're claiming here.

Seeing is believing Ana

The interesting thing about stats is that they are interpreted in different ways. Everyone has an agenda. Show me yours and I'll show you mine.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I've questioned my faith and the working out of it many times - and I've even had my faith tantrums were I've pushed God a little too far and got a reaction from him to put me in order.

I'm definitely curious about what this "reaction" from god was...

Mind sharing?

This approach is not recommended but I did get some valuable feedback and boundaries set in place. The evidence in my own life is overwhelming - I cannot deny it even though I push against it. It's much easier to pretend God does not exist and live as such than go against the "forces" of our nature.

It doesn't strike you at as all odd that you believe that you were "made" with these "forces of your nature"....and commanded to behave in contrary to these forces by your maker?

Doesn't it seem like it would be much easier to obey his commands if he made your "nature" differently?

What is Truth?

I say your reasoning ( even mine ) are all biased by our own basic instincts. Our logic, rationality, and reasoning all affected by the inner "beast" and therefore our conclusions are not always accurate or truthful. The instrument of our reasoning is in itself - basically flawed.

I say your base instinct rejects God - it is down to a question of sovereignty or self rule. Our reasoning is affected at this level. Therefore all information and facts are filtered out to confirm our decision we have already made at this deeper level.

John 16:9
The world’s sin is unbelief in me

I don't entirely agree or disagree with you here. I suppose there are some subjects we can approach objectively and unbiased...like mathematics for example...but I would agree that most subjects will be "tainted" by emotions (no matter how subtle or even unconscious they are). I don't know that I would describe them as an "inner beast" because I don't think this is, in of itself, a bad thing.

You're not entirely wrong about my rejection of the idea of god either...it definitely started at an emotional level. I would say that my "instinct" was to reject any baseless appeals to authority. I had reasoned that whenever one is asked to believe an authority unquestionably, the motivation of those asking was unlikely to have my best interests in mind.

Now, since I was 11 or so at the time I reached my conclusions about god...I'm not going to pretend that particular reasoning was based upon truth. It was based upon the world as I saw it (and still do in many ways) and that was enough for me at the time. I was however, challenged on my beliefs many times throughout my life and I can say that I haven't held onto my conclusions out of an unwillingness to consider the possibility that I am wrong. I like to think that my position has grown stronger from questioning that original conclusion over and over again...each time learning more. I do however, accept that there's a definite possibility that my emotions....subtle that they may be...have tainted my ability to continue to question my conclusions.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I was as good as dead ( so to speak ). I was prayed for and powerfully filled with the Holy Spirit such that my body and flesh was restored to life.

John 8:32
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.

Care to elaborate? As good as dead can mean a pretty wide array of possible circumstances....especially when you add "so to speak". Are we talking about being brain dead for some time? Were you falling and your parachute wouldn't open?

I don't know what you want me to consider when you're speaking in vague generalities.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I focused on the Spiritual realms rather than just God for the purpose of highlighting another reality or "world" that is normally invisible to the human eye and undetectable with our senses. Such an invisible world would "probably" consist of many lifeforms all interacting in some way or other with each other. Then they could "probably" interact and influence us in some way. Can the spiritual ( should it exist ) actually move in the physical world - can they ( assuming a limited life-form of some sort ) lift a brick physically or would they need to influence us to do it for them.

I don't have any clue what the answers to those questions might be. I don't really have a clear understanding of what "spiritual" refers to....you and Neo are the only two people I can remember using the word to describe an actual "place" with it's own inhabitants.

With that little to go off of....it would seem to me that the "spiritual inhabitants" of this "spiritual realm" would be no more aware of us than we are of them (which is to say, we aren't aware) and if either of us were to momentarily detect the other....it's unlikely either of us fully understood what happened.

It feels like a rather large leap to assume that these inhabitants are somehow more capable than us of understanding or manipulating the situation. Why would they be interested in us at all? Do they not have their own lives?

I was suggesting that even though we cannot see them - we should be able to observe the effects of their behaviour - if they can indeed influence us to act on their behalf such as lift a brick. If they can influence us to do a small thing like lift a brick for them then it logically follows that they might be able to influence world events.

To what end? It seems like if they exist....they must exist in a manner as all life does....and so they must eat, sleep, reproduce, etc. If they were capable of perceiving us and our existence....what possible reason would they have for trying to get us to "lift a brick"?

It's a fun idea....but when it's obviously centered on our lives, behaviors, or existence...then it sounds more like fantasy than reality. Wouldn't they rationally be far more concerned about their lives and the events they go through?

Salvation by faith is a necessity according to the bible - so absolute proof before hand is not an option.

Why? Is not the goal to bring as many of us to god as possible? Is that not what god desires of us? To end up close to him (either in heaven or in a relationship)?

It seems our own will and intellect itself is on trial? What we conclude determines our outcome. Do the research - assemble the facts but also know at the deeper level your reasoning is flawed and biased to the self?

Those are all great reasons to demand evidence....evidence which you just claimed is withheld from those without faith. It seems that the test itself is flawed...and for that I could only blame the tester.

 

[Serving Zion]

There's been multiple studies...of many kinds....none have ever yielded any evidence of the "spiritual".

What can you conclude from that?

Can you name a few? I would like to see their approach!

 

[Serving Zion]

I don't have any clue what the answers to those questions might be. I don't really have a clear understanding of what "spiritual" refers to....you and Neo are the only two people I can remember using the word to describe an actual "place" with it's own inhabitants.

With that little to go off of....it would seem to me that the "spiritual inhabitants" of this "spiritual realm" would be no more aware of us than we are of them (which is to say, we aren't aware) and if either of us were to momentarily detect the other....it's unlikely either of us fully understood what happened.

Check out 1 John 4, where St John tells us that the spirit of the antichrist came soon after Jesus, and as a result of the false teachers. Therefore, it is a spirit that is distinct from the spirit of God, which we are told in John 14:17, is named "the spirit of truth", just as Jesus spoke, saying "I am the truth", so the same spirit that spoke in Him speaks through us (although remember 1 John 4:1) .. only, when I tell you that if you drink the water I give you to drink, then you shall never thirst, I cannot say it in the capacity of being Christ, because His is a role that already belongs to Jesus, and we all must point to Him as such: the sacrificial lamb

It feels like a rather large leap to assume that these inhabitants are somehow more capable than us of understanding or manipulating the situation. Why would they be interested in us at all? Do they not have their own lives?

In His capacity to speak as the eternal spirit of God (John 8:58), He told us that the thief comes to steal, kill and destroy but He had come that we may have life, and abundantly at that! .. and this thief is a subtle serpent that has been working against us since the beginning (John 8:44).

So see how we are united in spirit only if we are loving the truth enough in order to overcome our selfish desire that would keep us from finding agreement in the truth.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Can you name a few? I would like to see their approach!

Here's one...

No Prayer Prescription

There's been several studies of these types though....you really only need to look around.

 

[Serving Zion]

Here's one...

No Prayer Prescription

There's been several studies of these types though....you really only need to look around.

Hmmm, yeah I am not surprised at all that their approach failed to win God's heart..

 

[Ana the Ist]

Check out 1 John 4, where St John tells us that the spirit of the antichrist came soon after Jesus, and as a result of the false teachers. Therefore, it is a spirit that is distinct from the spirit of God, which we are told in John 14:17, is named "the spirit of truth", just as Jesus spoke, saying "I am the truth", so the same spirit that spoke in Him speaks through us (although remember 1 John 4:1) .. only, when I tell you that if you drink the water I give you to drink, then you shall never thirst, I cannot say it in the capacity of being Christ, because His is a role that already belongs to Jesus, and we all must point to Him as such: the sacrificial lamb

The posts I replied to spoke of "spiritual beings" as something very different. In the passage you're quoting here....a spirit exists because of "false teachers". It's a completely different idea from what I was responding to.

If however, you'd like to give your take on what the "spiritual" is...I'll gladly consider it.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Hmmm, yeah I am not surprised at all that their approach failed to win God's heart..

Why is that?

 

[durangodawood]

Well after 7847 messages - you are certainly not a new seeker so I'm not at all convinced I can convince you of the TRUTH.

What is Truth?

I sort of realised from a young age that not all was well with the world and that leads to some deeper thinking. I had also been exposed to the death of my father at an early age and that gets one asking about life and death and the meaning of it all...

At the age of 10 or so I was in bed at night in the dark and was pinned down by two dark shadowy figures. I had a bit of a fight and a struggle and released myself and then they fled away.First Contact.

At age 12 I was up in the night unable to sleep and went downstairs - A spirit stood in my way at the top of the stairs and then came down right past me. Second Contact

At age 24 I was very ill and in hospital and was heading for an early exit from this world. I was taken to a church by a nurse ( who was my girlfriend at the time). I went out for prayer at the end of the meeting - then I was filled with the Holy Spirit. A fire came into me ( my legs shook under the force of it ) A presence surrounded me and literally my physical complexion changed from deathly pale and gaunt to someone who was radiant and glowing in an instant.The presence stayed with me for a few days. Third Contact.

After that - I was aware I had insight into the spiritual - my eyes were opened. God spoke to me in dreams and sometimes audibly. I had been born of the Spirit so to speak.

John 3:11
Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony.

Luke 24:31
Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight.

2 Corinthians 4:18
So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

I wonder what distinguishes people of many contacts from people with no contacts?

 

[FIRESTORM314]

I wonder what distinguishes people of many contacts from people with no contacts?

Why do some people get rich and some people never get off base?
Don't Wonder too long - procrastination gets you nowhere

 

[FIRESTORM314]

It feels like a rather large leap to assume that these inhabitants are somehow more capable than us of understanding or manipulating the situation. Why would they be interested in us at all? Do they not have their own lives?

To what end? It seems like if they exist....they must exist in a manner as all life does....and so they must eat, sleep, reproduce, etc. If they were capable of perceiving us and our existence....what possible reason would they have for trying to get us to "lift a brick"?

It's a fun idea....but when it's obviously centered on our lives, behaviors, or existence...then it sounds more like fantasy than reality. Wouldn't they rationally be far more concerned about their lives and the events they go through?

Well - I'm sure you've heard it all before but here's my take on it....

Parasites need a host do they not? God is self sustaining - we are not and neither it seems are some of them to some degree. One purpose of life is to stay alive. For them - it could be that they need to keep the status quo to "stay alive."

Matthew 8:26
When He came to the other side into the country of the Gadarenes, two men who were demon-possessed met Him as they were coming out of the tombs. They were so extremely violent that no one could pass by that way. 29 And they cried out, saying, What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?” 30 Now there was a herd of many swine feeding at a distance from them. 31 The demons began to entreat Him, saying, “If You are going to cast us out, send us into the herd of swine.” 32 And He said to them, “Go!” And they came out and went into the swine, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the sea and perished in the waters. 33 The herdsmen ran away, and went to the city and reported everything, c]">[c]including what had happened to the demoniacs. 34 And behold, the whole city came out to meet Jesus; and when they saw Him, they implored Him to leave their region.

 

[FIRESTORM314]

I don't entirely agree or disagree with you here. I suppose there are some subjects we can approach objectively and unbiased...like mathematics for example...but I would agree that most subjects will be "tainted" by emotions (no matter how subtle or even unconscious they are). I don't know that I would describe them as an "inner beast" because I don't think this is, in of itself, a bad thing.

You're not entirely wrong about my rejection of the idea of god either...it definitely started at an emotional level. I would say that my "instinct" was to reject any baseless appeals to authority. I had reasoned that whenever one is asked to believe an authority unquestionably, the motivation of those asking was unlikely to have my best interests in mind.

Now, since I was 11 or so at the time I reached my conclusions about god...I'm not going to pretend that particular reasoning was based upon truth. It was based upon the world as I saw it (and still do in many ways) and that was enough for me at the time. I was however, challenged on my beliefs many times throughout my life and I can say that I haven't held onto my conclusions out of an unwillingness to consider the possibility that I am wrong. I like to think that my position has grown stronger from questioning that original conclusion over and over again...each time learning more. I do however, accept that there's a definite possibility that my emotions....subtle that they may be...have tainted my ability to continue to question my conclusions.

Well - I'm with you on not trusting authority.

My Father died when I was young so I really had an issue with anyone with Authority. With the rise of individualism the authority issue is more common in the West and I wonder if we will eventually get rid of Government altogether. Now there is an idea....

Working out my Faith as a Christian was a little difficult for me as I was now under the Authority of God. That lead to some problems hence the statement that I pushed the boundaries a little too far. I was very intellectual - my own man - doing my own thinking and doing things my way. I questioned the church teaching and then questioned God himself over the way he did things. I had been given some very sharp spiritual gifts and decided to use them my own way. Without going into details - it really did cause a firestorm. There's no hiding from God and he did have a word with me over the matter after I suffered the consequences. Lesson learned - be obedient - trust and do as he says and don't trust your own judgement - you can be very very wrong.

 

[durangodawood]

Why do some people get rich and some people never get off base?
Don't Wonder too long - procrastination gets you nowhere

Hit stories sound like things that happen to you rather than things you go out and do.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Well - I'm sure you've heard it all before but here's my take on it....

Parasites need a host do they not? God is self sustaining - we are not and neither it seems are some of them to some degree. One purpose of life is to stay alive. For them - it could be that they need to keep the status quo to "stay alive."

You believe that they actually need us to stay alive? That the relationship between our existence and theirs is somehow parasitic?

That implies a much more complicated process than simply one of "observer and observed". What do you think they take from us for sustenance?

Also, you need not quote scripture to me. I'm not sure that you can show that the idea of a demon in scripture is the same idea that you hold today. Even if you could show that, it would take a rather exhaustive analysis to determine if the same idea is consistent throughout scripture.

I mean, have you ever looked into the origins of the idea of Satan and how it differs from your idea of Satan now?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Well - I'm with you on not trusting authority.

My Father died when I was young so I really had an issue with anyone with Authority. With the rise of individualism the authority issue is more common in the West and I wonder if we will eventually get rid of Government altogether. Now there is an idea....

My issue was with what I considered "baseless authority"...that is authority which has no valid reason for authority. It simply names itself as authority and demands obedience.

Authority which has validation wasn't as much of a problem in my eyes. In regards to government, I think it's the inevitable result of people seeking their own rational self interest and as such...it's not something we will ever be "rid of".

Without going into details - it really did cause a firestorm.

I appreciate that you're trying to share the story of how your faith came about...I think it's well intentioned. The thing is though, the story holds no meaning for me without those details you've withheld. I know this is a very personal experience for you to share....especially to someone who doesn't believe. I know because I've heard hundreds of versions of the story you just shared....and out of every hundred, maybe 1 is willing to share those personal details.

So please tell me...why withhold those details? If you're afraid that I will mock or otherwise make fun of your experiences...I can only assure you that I won't. My natural inclination may be to ask questions....but even then, those questions won't be worded in a way that tries to undermine your experience or beliefs. I simply wouldn't do that. Any questions I ask would just be an effort to better understand your experience.
Is that fair? Would you be comfortable sharing the details now?

If you would prefer that I ask no questions at all....that I not even comment on your story...I can do that as well. You need only say you'd prefer that of me.