What Is Paul's Definition of NT Prophecy?

[ARBITER01]

I was prayerfully meditating on the prophetic and was wondering what the difference between prophecy according to Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 14, and the office of Prophet as part of the five fold ministry. It is when I listened to a David Wilkerson message that it came clearly to me - he's a NT Prophet who is following in the steps of John the Baptiser, except that instead of calling the Jews to repentance, he is calling the church to repentance. Then I knew that the office of NT Prophet has not ceased, but has continued to this present day, but not in the way that the NAR describe it. The NAR "prophets" are pastoral prophets defined in 1 Corinthians 14, but they have gone into error by giving themselves the label of NT Prophets while not fulfilling the role of challenging the church over its sin and hypocrisy and calling for repentance.

When Leonard Ravenhill wrote "Why Revival Tarries" he was acting in the office of NT Prophet. I think that it takes resilience, courage, and holy boldness to be a NT Prophet, because he has to put up with opposition, hatred and persecution from those who don't want to hear his message.

While John the baptist was the forerunner to Jesus, and had a specific job and message from GOD, there were different types of prophets in the OT, ones that mostly wrote scripture, ones that GOD performed great powerful deeds through, and ones that foretold the will of GOD and gave warnings.

None of those types have disappeared with the advent of the NT, we only seem to want to associate Agabus as some sort of standard of the NT type that we will only see.

I don't think GOD has stopped wanting to produce all those different type of prophets , He just doesn't have great choices in people nowadays. In other words, the majority of people can't go through the trials for such things.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I was prayerfully meditating on the prophetic and was wondering what the difference between prophecy according to Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 14, and the office of Prophet as part of the five fold ministry. It is when I listened to a David Wilkerson message that it came clearly to me - he's a NT Prophet who is following in the steps of John the Baptiser, except that instead of calling the Jews to repentance, he is calling the church to repentance. Then I knew that the office of NT Prophet has not ceased, but has continued to this present day, but not in the way that the NAR describe it. The NAR "prophets" are pastoral prophets defined in 1 Corinthians 14, but they have gone into error by giving themselves the label of NT Prophets while not fulfilling the role of challenging the church over its sin and hypocrisy and calling for repentance.

When Leonard Ravenhill wrote "Why Revival Tarries" he was acting in the office of NT Prophet. I think that it takes resilience, courage, and holy boldness to be a NT Prophet, because he has to put up with opposition, hatred and persecution from those who don't want to hear his message.

That all sounds pretty familiar...

Do you think such a Prophet derives his authority direct from God if he is called to challenge the body - who would ordain him ?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Introducing such a prophet to a meeting would result in the audience being very uncomfortable. I suspect Paul did this at times.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

While John the baptist was the forerunner to Jesus, and had a specific job and message from GOD, there were different types of prophets in the OT, ones that mostly wrote scripture, ones that GOD performed great powerful deeds through, and ones that foretold the will of GOD and gave warnings.

None of those types have disappeared with the advent of the NT, we only seem to want to associate Agabus as some sort of standard of the NT type that we will only see.

I don't think GOD has stopped wanting to produce all those different type of prophets , He just doesn't have great choices in people nowadays. In other words, the majority of people can't go through the trials for such things.

Granted. But the NAR are putting themselves forward as the principal NT Prophets and they are seeking to have authority over all the churches. I firmly believe that they are not of God and are usurping a role and authority that He has not given them. What I am advocating is that the church needs Prophets in the style of John the Baptizer who still stand up and give the word that convicts the apostate areas of the church of sin, righteousness and judgment to come. Paul Washer is one of those. He calls people to repent and believe the Gospel without compromise with the world, and he warns that those who resist the Gospel will end up in hell. We need more of men like that who will perform the Prophet role, both within the Charismatic movement and outside of it. Continuance and Cessationist must take second place in the office of the Prophet. The Gospel of Christ must take first place. The weeds need to be pulled out, and the fallow ground be broken up, and the garbage cleaned out from the church and that has to take Holy Ghost unction in the pulpit to cause action in the pews. We need a whole nation of John the Baptizers to rise up and shake the church to its foundations. That is what the office of the NT Prophet is all about.

Not a certain prosperity preacher declaring from the "office of the Prophet of God" that Covid 19 is over! The chair I'm sitting in is more prophetic than he is. Quoting Shakespeare, "Strutting the stage, full of sound and fury, and signifying nothing!"

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

That all sounds pretty familiar...

Do you think such a Prophet derives his authority direct from God if he is called to challenge the body - who would ordain him ?

Paul was never ordained by man at all. He was called and chosen for ministry by Jesus Christ Himself. John the Baptizer was never ordained by man. When the Prophet preaches the word of God, it is the Word itself that carries the authority, not the preacher.

When you stood up and declared to the pastor that because his son was sleeping with a church member and if the sin continued it would destroy his ministry and his church, you were acting in the role of Prophet, because you were declaring to him that he needed to repent of not exercising his role as pastor and disciplining his son and the church member. He needed to tell them both to stop sinning or leave his church and his son to leave the family home. Just because the pastor did not accept your word, it did not mean that you failed, but that the pastor refused to obey the Holy Spirit speaking through you.

 

[Carl Emerson]

This all sounds good except that any such called prophet would need to be in a fellowship of prophets - no ?

Do his words not need weighing?

And the personalities you mention all have pastoral credentials, should we expect some will have no formal training - would you be comfortable with this and what church would want them unless there was a serious revival taking place...

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

This all sounds good except that any such called prophet would need to be in a fellowship of prophets - no ?

Do his words not need weighing?

And the personalities you mention all have pastoral credentials, should we expect some will have no formal training - would you be comfortable with this and what church would want them unless there was a serious revival taking place...

I think that a true NT Prophet should not be beholding to any church denomination. A person can preach the Gospel without having formal training. Charles Finney spend just one year under the supervision of a mentor before he was ordained as an evangelist. And he spent most of that year arguing with his mentor. David Brainerd was thrown out of seminary because he told his professor that there was more grace in the chair he was sitting on than in him. Yet he went on to have a powerful Holy Spirit ministry to the North American Indians.

Paul Washer says that he is often invited to preach at a church just once, and is never invited back because his ministry is too uncompromising for it. Being a Prophet of God is not a pleasant ministry because the nature of the preaching is like the hammer that breaks the religious rocks. It is the word like a two-edged sword that goes through a person in Holy Spirit conviction of sin. One either repents or rebels. There is no middle way.

His words don't need weighing in the same way that a pastoral prophecy is weighed. The Prophet is not giving a comforting, encouraging prophetic word to a group of faithful believers in a Sunday service. He is contending for the faith in front of a mainly hostile crowd who need to repent and believe the Gospel.

 

[ARBITER01]

Granted. But the NAR are putting themselves forward as the principal NT Prophets and they are seeking to have authority over all the churches. I firmly believe that they are not of God and are usurping a role and authority that He has not given them. What I am advocating is that the church needs Prophets in the style of John the Baptizer who still stand up and give the word that convicts the apostate areas of the church of sin, righteousness and judgment to come. Paul Washer is one of those. He calls people to repent and believe the Gospel without compromise with the world, and he warns that those who resist the Gospel will end up in hell. We need more of men like that who will perform the Prophet role, both within the Charismatic movement and outside of it. Continuance and Cessationist must take second place in the office of the Prophet. The Gospel of Christ must take first place. The weeds need to be pulled out, and the fallow ground be broken up, and the garbage cleaned out from the church and that has to take Holy Ghost unction in the pulpit to cause action in the pews. We need a whole nation of John the Baptizers to rise up and shake the church to its foundations. That is what the office of the NT Prophet is all about.

Not a certain prosperity preacher declaring from the "office of the Prophet of God" that Covid 19 is over! The chair I'm sitting in is more prophetic than he is. Quoting Shakespeare, "Strutting the stage, full of sound and fury, and signifying nothing!"

I would disagree.

I know a lot of what you just promoted sounds very good and all Oscarr, but what a prophet is going to be assigned to do is up to GOD.

Elijah dealt with a whole heap of false prophets and witchcraft during his time, do you think that such things are now done and over with, never to come back? I'm here to tell ya it's been growing and flourishing all these years. That's just one area that prophets can be involved in with GOD.

The message of "a prophet should promote the gospel like John the Baptist" sounds excellent and all, but a true prophet is only concerned with what GOD needs and wants. They are solely dedicated to GOD, not the body of Christ.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I have decided to start my own thread about this, instead of hijacking someone else's.

What I see in 1 Corinthians 14:3, "But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men."

Notice what Paul includes in his definition of prophecy and what he leaves out. He says that New Testament prophecy is for edification (building up faith in Christ), exhortation (to put trust in Christ), and comfort (assurance of God's help in times of trial). Also, further down in the chapter he includes "instruction".

Now, notice what Paul does not include in his definition. He does not include "guidance", nor does he include "prediction". What this means that guidance and prediction are not elements of New Testament prophecy, if we are to accept that Paul is writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

If we examine the type of false prophecies that have caused the most harm to believers, we see that they consist mainly in guidance, both corporate and personal; and prediction of future events (which never actually come to pass). But there have been many true and genuine prophecies that have done much to build up believers' faith in Christ, have motivated them to trust Christ in every circumstance, and given precious comfort to grieving believers, and those struggling with persecution and trials of their faith. Also many good prophecies have included instruction in righteousness in order to keep believers on the path of sound doctrine.

When prophecies are given, they must be evaluated. Paul taught the Thessalonians to "test all things and hold to that which is good." The test is to determine the effect that the prophecy has on the listeners. If a prophecy is given and no one understands what is being said, then the prophecy fails the test, because it has said nothing of substance and therefore falls short of Paul's definition of prophecy. If a prophecy predicts a future event such as "this year there will be a wave of refreshing across the body of Christ with signs, wonders, and miracles" and nothing happens by the end of the year, then it also fails the test because what was predicted never happened.

The Scripture says "31 I am against the false prophets,” says the Lord. “They use their own words and pretend it is a message from me. 32 I am against the prophets who prophesy false dreams,” says the Lord. “They mislead my people with their lies and false teachings! I did not send them or command them to do anything for me. They can’t help the people of Judah at all,” says the Lord. 33 “Suppose the people of Judah, a prophet, or a priest asks you: ‘Jeremiah, what is the message from the Lord?’ You will answer them and say, ‘You are a heavy load to the Lord, and I will throw you down, says the Lord.’" (Jeremiah 23:31-3).

These are very sobering words, because it is very clear that our modern false prophets are not born again if God has declared that He is against them.

Im a bit late to this party. I do agree with the OP as far as what is presented, but something I'd like to add. It may have been said already is Agabus. Agabus in Acts was clearly a NT prophet who predicted a severe famine and Paul's imprisonment. So I think NT prophecy is multi-faceted.

You have believers who have been given the ministry of prophecy, as Agabus and are endowed by the Spirit with that element, what we would think of as a prophet. Predictions and such.

And then you have everyday believers, what would constitute most believers, and they are able to prophecy in a sense of speaking comfort and edification to each other. Have yiu ever been speaking to someone and they just suddenly tell you, "That was really encouraging to my faith." or something along those lines? Chances are likely the Spirit was speaking through you to that person. This form of prophecy (to me) is rarely even understood to be in action until after the words have been spoken.

 

[ARBITER01]

And then you have everyday believers, what would constitute most believers, and they are able to prophecy in a sense of speaking comfort and edification to each other. Have yiu ever been speaking to someone and they just suddenly tell you, "That was really encouraging to my faith." or something along those lines? Chances are likely the Spirit was speaking through you to that person. This form of prophecy (to me) is rarely even understood to be in action until after the words have been spoken.

That is the personal portion of the exhortation/encouragement part of the gift of prophesying. The Holy Spirit will be confirming things that He has already been showing or teaching you. It helps establish you.

 

[GTW27]

I would disagree.

I know a lot of what you just promoted sounds very good and all Oscarr, but what a prophet is going to be assigned to do is up to GOD.

Elijah dealt with a whole heap of false prophets and witchcraft during his time, do you think that such things are now done and over with, never to come back? I'm here to tell ya it's been growing and flourishing all these years. That's just one area that prophets can be involved in with GOD.

The message of "a prophet should promote the gospel like John the Baptist" sounds excellent and all, but a true prophet is only concerned with what GOD needs and wants. They are solely dedicated to GOD, not the body of Christ.

It is The Lord that works through the prophet to do His will and good pleasure. It is the willing vessel that is truly dedicated to The Lord, and trust Him and Him alone. The prophet cares not what people think and say, only what pleases The Lord. And what is it that pleases The Lord? Think not about the vessel, but what flows from the vessel, for what flows from the vessel is not his own, but is from He who made him His own.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Can we get clarity on such a Prophet being part of the Body of Christ yet not subject to it...

Is that what is being said ???

 

[ARBITER01]

Can we get clarity on such a Prophet being part of the Body of Christ yet not subject to it...

Is that what is being said ???

That's not what I was saying.

Their job/mission with GOD is not centered around the ambitions of the body of Christ. They follow GOD and His desires only, and a lot of times those desires will be completely outside of trying to get people to repent. There are other things going on that GOD is involved with beyond just the salvation of souls. Trying to pigeon-hole a prophet into being exactly like John the Baptist or Agabus only is not realistic.

 

[Carl Emerson]

That's not what I was saying.

Their job/mission with GOD is not centered around the ambitions of the body of Christ. They follow GOD and His desires only, and a lot of times those desires will be completely outside of trying to get people to repent. There are other things going on that GOD is involved with beyond just the salvation of souls. Trying to pigeon-hole a prophet into being exactly like John the Baptist or Agabus only is not realistic.

Are the ambitions of the Body of Christ not the will of God?

I am not talking about the institutional church...

Did Paul not have a lot to say about how the Body of Christ functions, and mutual submission is fundamental?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I would disagree.

I know a lot of what you just promoted sounds very good and all Oscarr, but what a prophet is going to be assigned to do is up to GOD.

Elijah dealt with a whole heap of false prophets and witchcraft during his time, do you think that such things are now done and over with, never to come back? I'm here to tell ya it's been growing and flourishing all these years. That's just one area that prophets can be involved in with GOD.

The message of "a prophet should promote the gospel like John the Baptist" sounds excellent and all, but a true prophet is only concerned with what GOD needs and wants. They are solely dedicated to GOD, not the body of Christ.

A person who promotes the Gospel is the Evangelist, not a Prophet. The Evangelist calls the unconverted to repentance, while the Prophet calls the Church to repentance. All the five-fold ministries are dedicated to God. I don't accept your comment that they are not dedicated to the body of Christ, because the SCRIPTURE says that the five-fold ministries, including the Prophet are for the building up and strengthening of the body of Christ. The body of Christ is not man's Church. Jesus is the Head of the Church, and therefore the Prophet acknowledges that and works to bring the Church back under the Headship and Lordship of Jesus Christ.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Im a bit late to this party. I do agree with the OP as far as what is presented, but something I'd like to add. It may have been said already is Agabus. Agabus in Acts was clearly a NT prophet who predicted a severe famine and Paul's imprisonment. So I think NT prophecy is multi-faceted.

You have believers who have been given the ministry of prophecy, as Agabus and are endowed by the Spirit with that element, what we would think of as a prophet. Predictions and such.

And then you have everyday believers, what would constitute most believers, and they are able to prophecy in a sense of speaking comfort and edification to each other. Have yiu ever been speaking to someone and they just suddenly tell you, "That was really encouraging to my faith." or something along those lines? Chances are likely the Spirit was speaking through you to that person. This form of prophecy (to me) is rarely even understood to be in action until after the words have been spoken.

I think I am tending toward the style of John the Baptizer as exemplifying the NT Prophet. Agabus was just one Prophet and the two examples of his work were predictions, but we have no record of what else he said during his ministry.

It know that it is very hard to alter people's mindset concerning how they view a NT Prophet. People who have had it drummed into them all their Christian lives that a Prophet is some type of itinerate fellow who goes around giving prophetic words to people. This is how many people have mistakenly given the Kansas City prophets credibility and enabled the NAR to take root.

When God appointed Ezekiel to be a Prophet to Israel, He made him a watchman and that he should lift his voice like a trumpet to warn about the consequences of idolatry, regardless if the people listened to him or not. God told him that if he didn't warn them and they suffered the consequences their blood would be on his hands because he kept quiet when he should have warned them. But if he warned them and they didn't listen and still suffered the consequences, the blood would be on their own hands because he did warn them. This is the responsibility of the Prophet, and the NT Prophet is no exception. In the light of the widespread heresy and false teaching in the church leading people astray and into hell, we need Prophets who are watchmen who will lift up their voices like trumpets to warn them to flee from the wrath to come and to return to Christ. This is why I like the ministry of David Wilkerson, Leonard Ravenhill and Paul Washer as excellent examples of true Prophets warning the church to flee from the wrath of God that will come on those who pervert the true Gospel of Christ and teach another gospel and present another Christ who is not the Christ of the Gospels.

We need powerful Prophets in the Charismatic movement who will boldly preach against the charismania that is dominating the movement in these days. They need to warn the people about the fearful consequences of following this false charismania that is promulgated by the Prosperity and guaranteed healing preaching by the charlatans who are compromising with the world and other religions and who are scamming unsuspecting believers of their hard-earned money.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I think a good deal of grace needs to be given to all sides of this discussion for more than one reason. If Paul, Peter, or any of the original 12 or even their immediate contemporaries were here, they could set things straight sure. Problem is they aren't, we have only the scriptures. Scriptures which are of course very clear, but depending on who is reading them, say something different. This one says they are right, that one says they are right and they just kind of go at each other in an endless and completely pointless banter. Such a long amount of time has elapsed since the Apostolic Age, and mixed in between that gulf of time was a rather large lump that saw the complete dissolution of Charismatic practices.

I don't fault anyone who has the boldness to step out and give a word they truly believe is from the Lord. Scriptures tell us to not despise prophecy, but rather to test all things and hold fast to what is good. If a person gives a word that a collective body does not find was from the Lord, I feel they should graciously accept that decision and seek the Lord about any misunderstanding.

I am not going to limit God on what he can or what he can't say or do through anybody. But certainly this gift can be and often is abused, much to the detriment of others. But that doesn't absolve us from the responsibility to "not despise prophecies, rather to test". Things can go rather sideways quickly when we just flat out refuse to listen to prophecy, or when someone gives a word and in pride refuses to accept they may have misheard or had spoken from a different spirit. Both of those situations I think are wrong. Again, just what I see here.

So as stated in my last response, NT prophecy to me is multi-faceted. All believers can prophecy, but not all are prophets. If that makes sense. A Prophet, as in the office, would be like Agabus, where God will likely use this individual to warn the church of coming events or what not. Believers who prophecy speak comfort and edification to others. God is just using that individual to bring grace and love to other believers.

 

[ARBITER01]

Are the ambitions of the Body of Christ not the will of God?

I am not talking about the institutional church...

Did Paul not have a lot to say about how the Body of Christ functions, and mutual submission is fundamental?

The only submission we have is to make Christ Jesus Lord in our hearts. I understand how many would like a servitude type of body from Jesus, but that is not always wise. People fail other people all the time, so we must be subservient to Jesus and only allow our ministry to be servient to the body. If people want more than that, walk away, GOD will have other things for you to do.

The will of GOD involves more than just the body of Christ, He has a lot of enemies to put under the feet of Jesus before His kingdom is to be established.

 

[ARBITER01]

A person who promotes the Gospel is the Evangelist, not a Prophet. The Evangelist calls the unconverted to repentance, while the Prophet calls the Church to repentance. All the five-fold ministries are dedicated to God. I don't accept your comment that they are not dedicated to the body of Christ, because the SCRIPTURE says that the five-fold ministries, including the Prophet are for the building up and strengthening of the body of Christ. The body of Christ is not man's Church. Jesus is the Head of the Church, and therefore the Prophet acknowledges that and works to bring the Church back under the Headship and Lordship of Jesus Christ.

We are going to find disagreement on this Oscarr.

I don't pigeon hole a prophet into just one ideal when GOD used prophets in many different ways in the OT. They could have a teaching aspect associated with their ministry, but their will from GOD is not necessarily just what is going on inside a church.

Again, we are not going to see eye to eye on this Oscarr, and GOD has spent too much time over the years showing me all the different aspects of that office for you to try and change my mind about it now. Sorry.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I think we are getting our Body of Christ's mixed up.

The invisible church of true believers constitutes the Body of Christ (Capital B)

Any Prophet must be part of this Body.

Paul speaks about how this is to function.

I am not talking about Hierarchy but mutual submission.

So for what it is worth this is how I see this working.

Prophets would fellowship among themselves, being in mutual submission, and bringing Words to local fellowships.

This would satisfy the Biblical narrative and bring the institutional church back into line.

The fellowship of Prophets would not be beholden to any particular fellowship but fellowships could recommend consideration be given for certain members to be considered to join the Prophet's fellowship as members show evidence of such a calling.

The final say however would be mutual among the Prophets.

The foundation of the Church is the Apostles and Prophets these two roles need reinstating to challenge the political mess we have ended up with.